<!--QuoteBegin-amarc+Jul 10 2004, 09:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (amarc @ Jul 10 2004, 09:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No Zek you miss the point. Hive 3 aliens will quash a marine force of equal skill 90% of the time, aliens do (and should) have the advantage when they build all their Hives due to the abilities they gain and the boost in their damage absorbtion. But why take my word for it when you simply dismiss useful abilities like Charge with no justification?
Like I stated earlier, go and watch some demos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> All I said was that the hive 3 abilities are not as effective as they should be. Xenocide is reasonable though I think it should have its Blast damage back for the sake of base breaking. Webs are pretty good, but the nerf in web capacity was made only with co_ in mind and at hive 3 marines can easily counter webs anyway. Primal Scream is okay but the range and duration need to be increased. Acid rocket is pathetic. Charge is only good for running away and devour hit-and-runs - whether or not you think that's enough for a hive 3 weapon, it should have its damage back. Hive 3 weapons should be completely overpowered; aliens already stomp marines at hive 3, but I don't want to wait 15 minutes for that to happen when the marines are turtling their base. When marines completely fail in map control and allow the aliens 3 completed hives, the game should be over very quickly unless they pull something off real fast.
Right... so. Hive 3 abilities are not as effective as your opinion dictates they should be.
Say that my personal opinion dictates we really need some lapdancers in NS. But this suggestion is clearly not going to be realised as it does not serve a useful purpose or have justification to be implemented. Sounds alot like your desire to see Hive 3 abilities boosted. Thus arguing for said changes is clearly futile and takes up precious space on this forum. And why are we reading this again? Because you want something added to NS that suits your opinion but isn't justified. Excuse me while I go and Photoshop some lapdancers into Power Sub and waste everyones time by making flawed propositions...
Hopefully to put this to rest: it is clear from the point I am continually trying to press home that the abilities <b>are effective enough</b> - what possible reward is attained from strengthening alien top tier tech when it already destroys any marine force of equal skill in the vast majority of situations? This mini discussion has reached it's peak in terms of usefulness and also it's conclusion. Can you move along now please and make space for topics worthier of this forum Zek?
Is it just me or do anyone eles find it odd that the sentery has a mini-gun like weapon but fires in 3-4 round brusts (from the sound i know its really 1 bullet)? I think it should do little damage but fire like a HMG so it would be better VS skulks and Lerks but be about the same VS oni because they don't really miss them anyway. It would also fit how the sentery looks.
amarc, so your opinion is automatically valid with little justification but mine is somehow on the same level as adding lapdancers? Yeah, real sound argument you have there.
My desire to see hive 3 abilities boosted is based primarily on a desire to shorten the stalemates where aliens are clearly going to win but still take 10+ minutes to break the base of determined marines. If the situation were reversed, the marines would walk in with HMGs or any gun really, annihilate the hive 1 skulks and siege out whatever is in the hive room if necessary. Game over in a matter of minutes no matter how much the aliens turtle. Alien hive 3 weapons should allow them to end the game quickly and efficiently even if the marines are hopelessly turtled in their base; hive 3 being available indicates that the marines have failed in their most important duty, and thus should lose <i>quickly</i>, not eventually. There is no need to drag things out. Xeno, Primal Scream, Acid Rocket and Charge are all very well suited to this purpose, but they simply aren't powerful enough to accomplish it within a reasonable amount of time. Every single one of these abilities has been nerfed considerably since 1.04, where hive 3 really did mean game over(though admittedly that mostly had to do with Onoses).
Xeno with blast damage would be a fantastic way of clearing out large numbers of structures, powerful acid rockets would take care of the camping HMGs and charge would once again allow Onoses to do massive structure damage hit-and-run, and more effective primal scream would seal the deal. You said it yourself, hive 3 aliens walk all over marines. Why should it take so long to finish them off when late game marines barely have to lift a finger against hive 1 aliens? Aliens currently lack a really effective end-game base breaker, and hive 3 weapons would fill that role perfectly if they were to be a better match for fully guarded marine bases. I know that hive 3 aliens kick the crap out of full tech marines if they're allowed to have the hive for more than a couple of minutes. They just need to be better at breaking the base to ease the monotony of the alien endgame.
<!--QuoteBegin-amarc+Jul 10 2004, 08:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (amarc @ Jul 10 2004, 08:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No Zek you miss the point. Hive 3 aliens will quash a marine force of equal skill 90% of the time, aliens do (and should) have the advantage when they build all their Hives due to the abilities they gain and the boost in their damage absorbtion. But why take my word for it when you simply dismiss useful abilities like Charge with no justification?
Like I stated earlier, go and watch some demos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Amarc, while it is no doubt true that hive 3 aliens will defeat any marine force 90% of the time, the reason behind this is not due entirely to the new abilities that become avaliable upon completion of the 3rd hive. Rather, the very fact that the aliens could even initiate - and complete - the construction of a third hive does imply a few things beyond what is immediately apparent.
Aliens have full map control. They possess undisputed control over all resource nozzles save for the MS node.
Aliens have all 3 chamber types.
Marines are stuck in base with nowhere to go. A comeback, while technically possible, is now highly unlikely.
These are the primary reasons for the 90% alien win rate at hive 3.
The hive 3 abilities, on the other hand, exercise a very minimal impact when compared to the aforementioned reasons. While admittedly some do make a considerable dent in the marine endgame defense (xenocide is a good example), most abilties, like Acid Rocket and Charge, are fairly weak for a 3rd hive ability. Would you choose stomp over charge? Or acid rocket over metabolize? How often do you see fades with Acid Rocket in Combat? Or an Onos with charge for that matter? (that gives you an idea of how willing people are to spend 2 points on what you consider a "fine as it is" upgrade). Classic clearly isn't alone in needing more powerful 3rd hive abilities. And even if the 3 hive abilities were powerful enough, why are NS Classic 3-hive endgames so unbearably long - as they always have been since the release of 2.0? Beefing hive 3 abilities is the obvious solution.
Dear God, still wasting time and space. Demented: read all my posts in the thread, you will see I stated;
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Watch some CAL or ClanBase games where aliens get 3 Hives, and see how the marines get totally and utterly schooled even if they have HA or jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I.E. Even in equal games of top tech vs top tech aliens still dominate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens have full map control. They possess undisputed control over all resource nozzles save for the MS node.
Aliens have all 3 chamber types.
Marines are stuck in base with nowhere to go. A comeback, while technically possible, is now highly unlikely.
These are the primary reasons for the 90% alien win rate at hive 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously, but those were not the game I was concentrating on.
The Hive 3 abilities are amazingly useful when NS is played properly - web is one of the hardest counters for jetpacks and basic rushes. Primal scream is incredibly useful for attacking especially considering it's economic value - one scream can charge the entire alien team.
So... Zek.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> amarc, so your opinion is automatically valid with little justification but mine is somehow on the same level as adding lapdancers? Yeah, real sound argument you have there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, my opinion is valid because I have knowledge of what I am talking about. Again: go and watch some CAL or ClanBase demos and see when there is a top tech vs top tech battle who wins the vast majority of the time. Your argument <b>is</b> on the same level as adding lap dancers because like I said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this suggestion is clearly not going to be realised as it does not serve a useful purpose or have justification to be implemented... Thus arguing for said changes is clearly futile and takes up precious space on this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now for the last time: we have established that in an <b>equal battle</b> of top tech vs top tech aliens are the victors in the majority of cases. The logical conclusion is that the reason games drag on so long is not a simple case of aliens not being powerful enough, more that people don't have the competance to use the aliens abilities and realise that teamwork is a pre-requisite to a successful alien force. Don't believe me? Hop on a public server and see how much healspray/umbra/primal scream you get from your alien teammates.
To press the point home:
Why are the endgames unbearably long? Because when NS, like many strategy games, isn't played to it's full potential by competant players the game won't run smoothly. For instance, the long siege vs castle standoffs in games played by mediocre Age of Kings players. That's one of the drawbacks of NS' strategy element - maintaining some semblence of balance across all levels of playing abilities is detrimental to the gameplay is in the cases you mention - public server games where not everyone knows how to utilise their classes advantages. You seem so certain that it's an issue with the power of the aliens abilities but how can it be when we see that in equal games played by competant players aliens will still dominate? The aliens suffer alot more from inefficiencies in their team as they rely on every member being a team player to use their species advantage the best they can. For every player not competant in playing Kharraa their team mates will suffer, wheras marines can get away with one or two poorer players in the team as the commander can make up for their mistakes. The real problem is that you are expecting a strategy game to play smoothly when played by people whos skill level ranges from mediocre to bad. Problems like "turtling" are inherant when your team mates are not competant players and lack a grasp of the real strategy and gameplay behind NS.
Again:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hopefully to put this to rest: it is clear from the point I am continually trying to press home that the abilities are effective enough - what possible reward is attained from strengthening alien top tier tech when it already destroys any marine force of equal skill in the vast majority of situations? This mini discussion has reached it's peak in terms of usefulness and also it's conclusion. Can you move along now please and make space for topics worthier of this forum Zek?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you really believe that pub games have absolutely no say in balance as long as scrims are okay? Pub games are the vast majority of games being played in NS, and the only thing keeping the playerbase alive. I don't think it's unreasonable that we should be trying to improve them. You said yourself that hive 3 aliens are already superior to top tech marines; in that case improving them probably won't do much to scrims but it will do a lot of good for pubs. I've been playing on pubs since release, I think I understand what separates them from clan games. Your assumption that all pub players are simply mediocre at best and have no real idea how to play the game is a typical one but that doesn't make it true. It is extremely elitist to believe that balance only belongs to the absolute top tier of gameplay and the rest doesn't matter at all. If a change like this can improve pubs without significantly altering scrim outcomes then I don't see any problem with it. In what way would these improvements hurt scrims?
It is obvious that hive 3 abilities, with one or two exceptions(Xeno and Web), are less useful than hive 2 even against top tier marines. Would you rather have Umbra or Primal Scream? Metabolize or Acid Rocket? Stomp or Charge? Considering that they are by far the hardest to acquire, I don't see why that should be the case. The hive 2 abilities are a large part of the importance of the second hive, but the hive 3 ones are just a small bonus. Why should that be the case?
Zek, you're not gonna win. Look at his title: Playtester - Meaning no matter what you say to him, he will firmly believe he is always right, ONLY because he is a 'OMG l3et cl4n pl4y3|2!!1!!1!1!one!!1!eleven'. This also means that he is solely responsible for the shitiness this game is turning into, but that's because of a variety of idiotic, non-factual opinions, one of such is that 3rd hive abilities are somehow balanced, despite the fact that simple NUMBERS show that three abilities are completely underpowered.
This game is going to die hard, and the clanners are the ones driving it into walls. I'm sure eventually we'll see headshots put in because it "MAKES IT TAEK MRO SKILLZ!!!"
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jul 11 2004, 05:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 11 2004, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do you really believe that pub games have absolutely no say in balance as long as scrims are okay? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To an extent. Competitive games are the pinnacle of Natural-Selection, they push the gameplay and strategy to it's limits. If "scrims" are balanced then it bodes well for other arenas the game is played in, in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is extremely elitist to believe that balance only belongs to the absolute top tier of gameplay and the rest doesn't matter at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Firstly, balance belongs to every game of Natural Selection but only a small proportion of the community will push that balance to it's limits. Regardless, I didn't state balance belongs to any one group... It's simply practical, you take the games played by the best teams who are faily matched up and observe the balance. Have you got a better way to observe balance? Share, please do...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a change like this can improve pubs without significantly altering scrim outcomes then I don't see any problem with it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have hit the nail on the head there, boosting the already very strong Hive 3 aliens would have an effect on scrims as it negates the already miniscule chance marines have to pull it back.
Perhaps the abilities are not as useful as the Hive 2 abilities, but it really doesn't matter - they are just a part of the package, the boost in damage absorbtion and 3 Chambers more than make up for it. It should remain the case as aliens simply have no problems dominating at Hive 3 unless they are incompetant, and no boosting/nerfing can ever make up for that...
At the end of the day we have established Hive 3 aliens are very strong already multiple times and yet you are arguing because some players don't know how to finish rounds we should boost the strongest force in the game? I really cannot see how you think this would ever work, perhaps your viewpoint is skewed by too many poor public games. I implore you, watch some demos and get some perspective.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Jul 11 2004, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Jul 11 2004, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Zek, you're not gonna win. Look at his title: Playtester - Meaning no matter what you say to him, he will firmly believe he is always right, ONLY because he is a 'OMG l3et cl4n pl4y3|2!!1!!1!1!one!!1!eleven'. This also means that he is solely responsible for the shitiness this game is turning into, but that's because of a variety of idiotic, non-factual opinions, one of such is that 3rd hive abilities are somehow balanced, despite the fact that simple NUMBERS show that three abilities are completely underpowered.
This game is going to die hard, and the clanners are the ones driving it into walls. I'm sure eventually we'll see headshots put in because it "MAKES IT TAEK MRO SKILLZ!!!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, a post consisting of the lowest form of wit and flame baiting. Nevertheless I am bored so I will respond...
Why make it? I really cannot understand what some people intend to achieve by posting such comments. Your post is essentially a whine with a misinformed dig at the Playtesting group. As I have stated, my posts are my personal opinion - i.e. not representative of the many Playtesters... I believe I am right as I base my opinions on facts, things I can back up with demos and not just assertions about the state of play on public servers. It's slightly more logical to base arguments on something verifiable, which brings me onto my next point..
Simple numbers show what? That many game outcomes are affected by countless variables like poor commanders, people dropping the wrong chambers, no one going fade etc... Numbers alone cannot proove anything about ingame balance as it cannot be verified that they represent proper games of Natural Selection.
Solely responsible? Do a search, see how many people are in the Playtesting group - even if this game was failing (and considering it is by far the most popular 3rd party mod for HL and has been for a while...) it would perhaps be the enire group, rather than specifically me, that is responsible.
The headshots in Counter-Strike are normally criticised for bringing in a random, skilless factor into the game - at most levels of play, it hardly takes more skill. But... then again, you think discussion is about achieving a "win" so everything you say should be taken with a barrel full of salt. Perhaps try posting your criticism of the state of NS with some valid points of substance, instead of ironically spewing out a "variety of idiotic" nonsensical arguments. Thanks.
<!--QuoteBegin-amarc+Jul 11 2004, 01:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (amarc @ Jul 11 2004, 01:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Simple numbers show what? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Simple numbers show that acid rocket is nothing more then spit with splash damage. Simple numbers show the time-to-kill a light marine at level 3 armor compared to the TTK of a 10 res shotgun against said onos, relative to the destruction of a FREE UNIT, is absurdity. Charge needs to practically instagib light marines. A shotgun gibs skulks, and that's at the bottom of the marine tech tree. And an onos with three hives is a MASSIVE investment of resources, much more then even the equivilent resources (250?) would be worth to the commander, since the alien resource model works so differently. Simple numbers show that xenocide, which requires the death of a creature, finesse, and timing, can't even kill a light armor level 2 marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The headshots in Counter-Strike are normally criticised for bringing in a random, skilless factor into the game - at most levels of play, it hardly takes more skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The headshots in CS are random because the weapon ballistics are so damn screwed up. You have a cone of fire system like you're in a wheelchair shooting a minigun. You have recoil like you don't even have a stock on the gun. The result is that even with perfect aim, 8 shots are going to go no where NEAR where you aimed. Natural-Selection lacks that inaccuracy and recoil.
And don't go into ' Perhaps try posting your criticism of the state of NS with some valid points of substance', you're the one whose only 'proof' so far is telling someone to go **** themselves to CAL demos.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Jul 11 2004, 06:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Jul 11 2004, 06:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Simple numbers show that acid rocket is nothing more then spit with splash damage. Simple numbers show the time-to-kill a light marine at level 3 armor compared to the TTK of a 10 res shotgun against said onos, relative to the destruction of a FREE UNIT, is absurdity. Charge needs to practically instagib light marines. A shotgun gibs skulks, and that's at the bottom of the marine tech tree. And an onos with three hives is a MASSIVE investment of resources, much more then even the equivilent resources (250?) would be worth to the commander, since the alien resource model works so differently. Simple numbers show that xenocide, which requires the death of a creature, finesse, and timing, can't even kill a light armor level 2 marine.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...and which simple numbers show this? And how exactly?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And don't go into ' Perhaps try posting your criticism of the state of NS with some valid points of substance', you're the one whose only 'proof' so far is telling someone to go **** themselves to CAL demos.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again... I believe I am right as I base my opinions on facts, things I can back up with demos and not just assertions about the state of play on public servers. It's slightly more logical to base arguments on something verifiable.
My proof is in the demos of the countless games I watch, wheras your proof is seemingly non-existant...
<!--QuoteBegin-amarc+Jul 11 2004, 01:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (amarc @ Jul 11 2004, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To an extent. Competitive games are the pinnacle of Natural-Selection, they push the gameplay and strategy to it's limits. If "scrims" are balanced then it bodes well for other arenas the game is played in, in my opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ridiculous. You know as well as I do that clan balance won't trickle down to pub servers as long as it is dependent on a high level of teamwork. That amount teamwork is impossible on pubs simply because they are mostly strangers playing a game that was not at all pre-planned. You yourself were trying to emphasize the difference between pubs and scrims in your last post, and now we are to believe that unorganized games can be balanced in the exact same way as the top tier?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What? Firstly, balance belongs to every game of Natural Selection but only a small proportion of the community will push that balance to it's limits. Regardless, I didn't state balance belongs to any one group... It's simply practical, you take the games played by the best teams who are faily matched up and observe the balance. Have you got a better way to observe balance? Share, please do...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Scrim imbalance and pub imbalance are often two different things caused by issues that only exist in one or the other. If you only think about balance in the "perfect" scenario then you aren't taking into account problems that only occur in the other 95% of games. If I had a choice between perfect balance in the upper 5% or lower 95% I'd pick the latter. Pub games are fundamentally different from scrims because they operate on a lower level of communication and teamwork; not necessarily because of some flaw in the players but just because they are randomly thrown together at the start of the game. Do I think we should attempt to balance for "inferior" teamwork? Yes, absolutely. There should be an incentive to work together as well as possible but it shouldn't be completely necessary to enjoy even a small amount of balance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have hit the nail on the head there, boosting the already very strong Hive 3 aliens would have an effect on scrims as it negates the already miniscule chance marines have to pull it back.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a sacrifice I am willing to make. The chance is already miniscule. The supposedly negative effect on scrim games won't be nearly as pronounced as the positive effect on pubs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the end of the day we have established Hive 3 aliens are very strong already multiple times and yet you are arguing because some players don't know how to finish rounds we should boost the strongest force in the game? I really cannot see how you think this would ever work, perhaps your viewpoint is skewed by too many poor public games. I implore you, watch some demos and get some perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're trying to make it sound like only complete newbies aren't able to quickly finish off marines who are camping their base with HMGs trying to save enough res for a comeback, but that definitely isn't the case. It's not just a matter of not knowing how to play the game; coordinating that effectively with strangers is difficult just because of the nature of pub games. I really cannot see how you think the Fade's glorified Spit is an effective ability. Perhaps your viewpoint is skewed by too many clan scrims? All the demos in the world aren't going to change the fact that these games are in the vast minority, and you're suggesting leaving everybody else in the dust just for their benefit. That's why I used the word "elitist" earlier; you believe that only the most highly skilled players deserve the benefit of this balance, and that everybody in pub games simply isn't skilled enough to be worthy of consideration. Frankly I'd rather balance for the majority, especially when the change would have almost zero impact on who wins clan games since Hive 3 aliens already "dominate."
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jul 11 2004, 06:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 11 2004, 06:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You yourself were trying to emphasize the difference between pubs and scrims in your last post, and now we are to believe that unorganized games can be balanced in the exact same way as the top tier?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, it is perfectelly possible and I have seen it happen many times in pick ups.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do I think we should attempt to balance for "inferior" teamwork? Yes, absolutely. There should be an incentive to work together as well as possible but it shouldn't be completely necessary to enjoy even a small amount of balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wheras I don't as I feel it would compromise the delicate balance and strategic quality in Natural-Selection. I feel your suggest basically comes down to dumbing down the game for the masses which is repulsive in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's a sacrifice I am willing to make. The chance is already miniscule. The supposedly negative effect on scrim games won't be nearly as pronounced as the positive effect on pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you would be willing to tarnish the viability of clan games at a 3 Hive level so games finish quicker for newbie players?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All the demos in the world aren't going to change the fact that these games are in the vast minority, and you're suggesting leaving everybody else in the dust just for their benefit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...just as you seem to think it's fine to leave clanners in the dust so that the majority can enjoy quicker games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's why I used the word "elitist" earlier; you believe that only the most highly skilled players deserve the benefit of this balance, and that everybody in pub games simply isn't skilled enough to be worthy of consideration.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's my opinion - you could say it's elitist, I would say it's just realistic. Fine-tuned balance is wasted on Joe Newbie who just wants to kill some aliens LIKE IN THAT FILM LOLZ. The majority of public players simply don't need it as their play styles rarely call for it. They may play a couple of times a week on a server with their friends and it's highly unlikely they will ever have an appreciation of the inner-working of NS or take the game to it's limits like clanners will. That's why nobody wants to watch a public server HLTV though, the quality of the game is dire because it's filled with people who don't want to, or can't, understand Natural Selection.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly I'd rather balance for the majority, especially when the change would have almost zero impact on who wins clan games since Hive 3 aliens already "dominate."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But to me that change would destroy the viability of clan games once Hive 3 is reached and thus is unnacceptable. We can go round in circles all day, my viewpoint isn't going to change. In my view Natural Selection should be balanced so that it's possible to achieve outstanding competitive games determined by real strategy crossed with skill and not games compromised by concessions to people who are unable to appreciate the game.
THis just gets more and more elitist. First it was because the pubbers CAN'T play the game as intended. Now it's pubbers can't even APPRECIATE the game, what's next, you're gonna say pubbers don't even DESERVE to play the game?
You guys are like jocks, but for computer games.
You claim that Natural-Selection is the 3rd most popular mod for Half-Life. Now ask yourself why that is? Is it because of 1,000+ pubbers? Or is it because of the handful of clanners? The die-hard clanners will keep the game ALIVE, but I mean just barely alive - where it's on the steampowered list with only a few dozen players a day. Clanners not only add NOTHING to the game, but from reading this, they're resposible for ruining it.
Without the pub base, Natural-Selection would be utterly dead. Hell the clan scene is even begging for help since it's in such sorry shape.
1) The clan base is balancing the game for themselves.
2) The clan base is exponentially smaller then the pub base.
3) This game is popular not because of the 100 or so clanners, but because of the 1,000+ pubbers.
Thus we conclude:
4) The game is not fun, and it is soley the fault of clans.
Concluding from THAT:
5) This game would be MUCH better off for over 80% of the playerbase if the clan scene died.
(On that note, NS has very poor strategy, since every 'strategy' has some stupid counter (special note: Distress Beacon)).
Whats your point EEK? Aside from your misguided & factually incorrect rant about how much the clan scene has apparantely ruined NS, you whine about elitism. Elitists exist in every part of life, congratulations on the realisation.
1.) Zek thinks that major league football, baseball, and soccer should be balanced around games that are played in the backyard of a cookout, to do otherwise would be 'elitist'
2.) EEK is probably gonna bet banned for the third time in a row just because of this thread - Keep up the good work
3.) Acid rockets should deal 50, and charge should deal 1000 a second (300 a second right now means about 40 damage when pressing against a marine? Jeez)
Forlorn should come up with sports comparisons where the same exact rules are all applied to both professional leagues and backyard games, or at least where the teams aren't completely symmetrical...
amarc, correct me if I'm wrong, but hive 3 is meant to be gg. As it is, it's not. The vast majority of hive 3 abilities are grossly underpowered. I really don't think making THE FINAL EVOLUTIONS OF THE ALIENS ACTUALLY USEFUL would be unbalancing. If the Marines allowed 3 hives, then obviously they deserve to lose quickly, not turtle up for 5-20 minutes in their near impregnable fortress.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3.) Acid rockets should deal 50, and charge should deal 1000 a second (300 a second right now means about 40 damage when pressing against a marine? Jeez)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed!
Although, technically speaking, I had already learned that before this thread. :/
<!--QuoteBegin-blackholedreams+Jul 12 2004, 04:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (blackholedreams @ Jul 12 2004, 04:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> amarc, correct me if I'm wrong, but hive 3 is meant to be gg. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes and it is in at least 90% of cases.
The reason for making this change would be to make the game more <b><i><u>FUN</b></i></u> for pubs. It would not significantly increase the likelihood of an alien win once they have 3 hives (at least I don't think so), but it would decrease the time that is spent slowly cracking into marine base, which would make the game more <i>enjoyable</i> for aliens. As for clan games, the win rate for aliens (once they reach 3 hives) might go from 90% to 95%. Is that really going to hurt the game? I don't think so. And considering the large benefit that it would grant to pubs, which are the majority of the people playing, I think it would be a good idea.
Anyway, how did this thread go from "Turret Damage and Accuracy" to alien hive 3 abilities?
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jul 11 2004, 08:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 11 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn should come up with sports comparisons where the same exact rules are all applied to both professional leagues and backyard games, or at least where the teams aren't completely symmetrical... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Zek the comparison between backyard games having different rules would be like how a server admin puts a plugin on his server.
Other than that you don't balance the official league game around backyard games.
If you wanna balance out your individual pubs, use plugins, because there is no way a pub is gonna balance NS.
That's all. That's it. Nothing more than that. Nothing that would throw clan play completly off balance (especially considering the fact that scrims at hive 3 usually end up with an alien victory anyway).
As far as the sports analogies go, I know for a fact that football has different rules for high school, college, and professional levels. Basically, games <u>do</u> have different rules at different levels, generally speaking (at least they do sometimes), so your example, Forlorn, isn't very useful.
<!--QuoteBegin-i'm lost+Jul 14 2004, 02:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Jul 14 2004, 02:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As far as the sports analogies go, I know for a fact that football has different rules for high school, college, and professional levels. Basically, games <u>do</u> have different rules at different levels, generally speaking (at least they do sometimes), so your example, Forlorn, isn't very useful. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, plugins, also individual rules do change on lower levels such as (did I mention) plugins, also cl_consistancy, soon to be sv_blockscripts (unfortionately), you can change rate settings, etc. etc. etc. etc. Man the list goes on.
What we are talking about here are the groundwork and big rules of the game, not the smaller ones.
So the example holds, in fact your objection helps me support the analogy even better.
The turret will be beefed (Look @ Mantis) in the next version, so they will deal 13 dmg when you have all 3 weapon upgrades. That means they will do 6.5 dmg to oni. Making them less accurate is not an option, since they are most effective against lower lifeforms and will always be.
Heh this thread is way off topic now, though I'll add my thoughts as well. AR and charge need beefing up ASAP. Web should be less annoying to use (the web limit is frustrating when your teammate gorges are idiots). Primal scream is pretty useful, but an improvement won't hurt. Xenocide is fun, but I wish aliens could spawn faster to take advantage of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Xenocide is fun, but I wish aliens could spawn faster to take advantage of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe aliens that die from using xenocide could spawn a few seconds faster.
Comments
Like I stated earlier, go and watch some demos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I said was that the hive 3 abilities are not as effective as they should be. Xenocide is reasonable though I think it should have its Blast damage back for the sake of base breaking. Webs are pretty good, but the nerf in web capacity was made only with co_ in mind and at hive 3 marines can easily counter webs anyway. Primal Scream is okay but the range and duration need to be increased. Acid rocket is pathetic. Charge is only good for running away and devour hit-and-runs - whether or not you think that's enough for a hive 3 weapon, it should have its damage back. Hive 3 weapons should be completely overpowered; aliens already stomp marines at hive 3, but I don't want to wait 15 minutes for that to happen when the marines are turtling their base. When marines completely fail in map control and allow the aliens 3 completed hives, the game should be over very quickly unless they pull something off real fast.
Hive 3 abilities are not as effective as your opinion dictates they should be.
Say that my personal opinion dictates we really need some lapdancers in NS. But this suggestion is clearly not going to be realised as it does not serve a useful purpose or have justification to be implemented. Sounds alot like your desire to see Hive 3 abilities boosted. Thus arguing for said changes is clearly futile and takes up precious space on this forum. And why are we reading this again? Because you want something added to NS that suits your opinion but isn't justified. Excuse me while I go and Photoshop some lapdancers into Power Sub and waste everyones time by making flawed propositions...
Hopefully to put this to rest: it is clear from the point I am continually trying to press home that the abilities <b>are effective enough</b> - what possible reward is attained from strengthening alien top tier tech when it already destroys any marine force of equal skill in the vast majority of situations? This mini discussion has reached it's peak in terms of usefulness and also it's conclusion. Can you move along now please and make space for topics worthier of this forum Zek?
My desire to see hive 3 abilities boosted is based primarily on a desire to shorten the stalemates where aliens are clearly going to win but still take 10+ minutes to break the base of determined marines. If the situation were reversed, the marines would walk in with HMGs or any gun really, annihilate the hive 1 skulks and siege out whatever is in the hive room if necessary. Game over in a matter of minutes no matter how much the aliens turtle. Alien hive 3 weapons should allow them to end the game quickly and efficiently even if the marines are hopelessly turtled in their base; hive 3 being available indicates that the marines have failed in their most important duty, and thus should lose <i>quickly</i>, not eventually. There is no need to drag things out. Xeno, Primal Scream, Acid Rocket and Charge are all very well suited to this purpose, but they simply aren't powerful enough to accomplish it within a reasonable amount of time. Every single one of these abilities has been nerfed considerably since 1.04, where hive 3 really did mean game over(though admittedly that mostly had to do with Onoses).
Xeno with blast damage would be a fantastic way of clearing out large numbers of structures, powerful acid rockets would take care of the camping HMGs and charge would once again allow Onoses to do massive structure damage hit-and-run, and more effective primal scream would seal the deal. You said it yourself, hive 3 aliens walk all over marines. Why should it take so long to finish them off when late game marines barely have to lift a finger against hive 1 aliens? Aliens currently lack a really effective end-game base breaker, and hive 3 weapons would fill that role perfectly if they were to be a better match for fully guarded marine bases. I know that hive 3 aliens kick the crap out of full tech marines if they're allowed to have the hive for more than a couple of minutes. They just need to be better at breaking the base to ease the monotony of the alien endgame.
Like I stated earlier, go and watch some demos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amarc, while it is no doubt true that hive 3 aliens will defeat any marine force 90% of the time, the reason behind this is not due entirely to the new abilities that become avaliable upon completion of the 3rd hive. Rather, the very fact that the aliens could even initiate - and complete - the construction of a third hive does imply a few things beyond what is immediately apparent.
Aliens have full map control. They possess undisputed control over all resource nozzles save for the MS node.
Aliens have all 3 chamber types.
Marines are stuck in base with nowhere to go. A comeback, while technically possible, is now highly unlikely.
These are the primary reasons for the 90% alien win rate at hive 3.
The hive 3 abilities, on the other hand, exercise a very minimal impact when compared to the aforementioned reasons. While admittedly some do make a considerable dent in the marine endgame defense (xenocide is a good example), most abilties, like Acid Rocket and Charge, are fairly weak for a 3rd hive ability. Would you choose stomp over charge? Or acid rocket over metabolize? How often do you see fades with Acid Rocket in Combat? Or an Onos with charge for that matter? (that gives you an idea of how willing people are to spend 2 points on what you consider a "fine as it is" upgrade). Classic clearly isn't alone in needing more powerful 3rd hive abilities. And even if the 3 hive abilities were powerful enough, why are NS Classic 3-hive endgames so unbearably long - as they always have been since the release of 2.0? Beefing hive 3 abilities is the obvious solution.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Watch some CAL or ClanBase games where aliens get 3 Hives, and see how the marines get totally and utterly schooled even if they have HA or jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I.E. Even in equal games of top tech vs top tech aliens still dominate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens have full map control. They possess undisputed control over all resource nozzles save for the MS node.
Aliens have all 3 chamber types.
Marines are stuck in base with nowhere to go. A comeback, while technically possible, is now highly unlikely.
These are the primary reasons for the 90% alien win rate at hive 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously, but those were not the game I was concentrating on.
The Hive 3 abilities are amazingly useful when NS is played properly - web is one of the hardest counters for jetpacks and basic rushes. Primal scream is incredibly useful for attacking especially considering it's economic value - one scream can charge the entire alien team.
So... Zek.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> amarc, so your opinion is automatically valid with little justification but mine is somehow on the same level as adding lapdancers? Yeah, real sound argument you have there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, my opinion is valid because I have knowledge of what I am talking about. Again: go and watch some CAL or ClanBase demos and see when there is a top tech vs top tech battle who wins the vast majority of the time.
Your argument <b>is</b> on the same level as adding lap dancers because like I said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this suggestion is clearly not going to be realised as it does not serve a useful purpose or have justification to be implemented... Thus arguing for said changes is clearly futile and takes up precious space on this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now for the last time: we have established that in an <b>equal battle</b> of top tech vs top tech aliens are the victors in the majority of cases. The logical conclusion is that the reason games drag on so long is not a simple case of aliens not being powerful enough, more that people don't have the competance to use the aliens abilities and realise that teamwork is a pre-requisite to a successful alien force. Don't believe me? Hop on a public server and see how much healspray/umbra/primal scream you get from your alien teammates.
To press the point home:
Why are the endgames unbearably long? Because when NS, like many strategy games, isn't played to it's full potential by competant players the game won't run smoothly. For instance, the long siege vs castle standoffs in games played by mediocre Age of Kings players. That's one of the drawbacks of NS' strategy element - maintaining some semblence of balance across all levels of playing abilities is detrimental to the gameplay is in the cases you mention - public server games where not everyone knows how to utilise their classes advantages. You seem so certain that it's an issue with the power of the aliens abilities but how can it be when we see that in equal games played by competant players aliens will still dominate?
The aliens suffer alot more from inefficiencies in their team as they rely on every member being a team player to use their species advantage the best they can. For every player not competant in playing Kharraa their team mates will suffer, wheras marines can get away with one or two poorer players in the team as the commander can make up for their mistakes.
The real problem is that you are expecting a strategy game to play smoothly when played by people whos skill level ranges from mediocre to bad. Problems like "turtling" are inherant when your team mates are not competant players and lack a grasp of the real strategy and gameplay behind NS.
Again:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hopefully to put this to rest: it is clear from the point I am continually trying to press home that the abilities are effective enough - what possible reward is attained from strengthening alien top tier tech when it already destroys any marine force of equal skill in the vast majority of situations? This mini discussion has reached it's peak in terms of usefulness and also it's conclusion. Can you move along now please and make space for topics worthier of this forum Zek?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is obvious that hive 3 abilities, with one or two exceptions(Xeno and Web), are less useful than hive 2 even against top tier marines. Would you rather have Umbra or Primal Scream? Metabolize or Acid Rocket? Stomp or Charge? Considering that they are by far the hardest to acquire, I don't see why that should be the case. The hive 2 abilities are a large part of the importance of the second hive, but the hive 3 ones are just a small bonus. Why should that be the case?
This game is going to die hard, and the clanners are the ones driving it into walls. I'm sure eventually we'll see headshots put in because it "MAKES IT TAEK MRO SKILLZ!!!"
To an extent. Competitive games are the pinnacle of Natural-Selection, they push the gameplay and strategy to it's limits. If "scrims" are balanced then it bodes well for other arenas the game is played in, in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is extremely elitist to believe that balance only belongs to the absolute top tier of gameplay and the rest doesn't matter at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Firstly, balance belongs to every game of Natural Selection but only a small proportion of the community will push that balance to it's limits. Regardless, I didn't state balance belongs to any one group... It's simply practical, you take the games played by the best teams who are faily matched up and observe the balance. Have you got a better way to observe balance? Share, please do...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a change like this can improve pubs without significantly altering scrim outcomes then I don't see any problem with it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have hit the nail on the head there, boosting the already very strong Hive 3 aliens would have an effect on scrims as it negates the already miniscule chance marines have to pull it back.
Perhaps the abilities are not as useful as the Hive 2 abilities, but it really doesn't matter - they are just a part of the package, the boost in damage absorbtion and 3 Chambers more than make up for it. It should remain the case as aliens simply have no problems dominating at Hive 3 unless they are incompetant, and no boosting/nerfing can ever make up for that...
At the end of the day we have established Hive 3 aliens are very strong already multiple times and yet you are arguing because some players don't know how to finish rounds we should boost the strongest force in the game? I really cannot see how you think this would ever work, perhaps your viewpoint is skewed by too many poor public games. I implore you, watch some demos and get some perspective.
This game is going to die hard, and the clanners are the ones driving it into walls. I'm sure eventually we'll see headshots put in because it "MAKES IT TAEK MRO SKILLZ!!!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, a post consisting of the lowest form of wit and flame baiting. Nevertheless I am bored so I will respond...
Why make it? I really cannot understand what some people intend to achieve by posting such comments. Your post is essentially a whine with a misinformed dig at the Playtesting group. As I have stated, my posts are my personal opinion - i.e. not representative of the many Playtesters...
I believe I am right as I base my opinions on facts, things I can back up with demos and not just assertions about the state of play on public servers. It's slightly more logical to base arguments on something verifiable, which brings me onto my next point..
Simple numbers show what? That many game outcomes are affected by countless variables like poor commanders, people dropping the wrong chambers, no one going fade etc... Numbers alone cannot proove anything about ingame balance as it cannot be verified that they represent proper games of Natural Selection.
Solely responsible? Do a search, see how many people are in the Playtesting group - even if this game was failing (and considering it is by far the most popular 3rd party mod for HL and has been for a while...) it would perhaps be the enire group, rather than specifically me, that is responsible.
The headshots in Counter-Strike are normally criticised for bringing in a random, skilless factor into the game - at most levels of play, it hardly takes more skill. But... then again, you think discussion is about achieving a "win" so everything you say should be taken with a barrel full of salt. Perhaps try posting your criticism of the state of NS with some valid points of substance, instead of ironically spewing out a "variety of idiotic" nonsensical arguments. Thanks.
Simple numbers show that acid rocket is nothing more then spit with splash damage. Simple numbers show the time-to-kill a light marine at level 3 armor compared to the TTK of a 10 res shotgun against said onos, relative to the destruction of a FREE UNIT, is absurdity. Charge needs to practically instagib light marines. A shotgun gibs skulks, and that's at the bottom of the marine tech tree. And an onos with three hives is a MASSIVE investment of resources, much more then even the equivilent resources (250?) would be worth to the commander, since the alien resource model works so differently. Simple numbers show that xenocide, which requires the death of a creature, finesse, and timing, can't even kill a light armor level 2 marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The headshots in Counter-Strike are normally criticised for bringing in a random, skilless factor into the game - at most levels of play, it hardly takes more skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The headshots in CS are random because the weapon ballistics are so damn screwed up. You have a cone of fire system like you're in a wheelchair shooting a minigun. You have recoil like you don't even have a stock on the gun. The result is that even with perfect aim, 8 shots are going to go no where NEAR where you aimed. Natural-Selection lacks that inaccuracy and recoil.
And don't go into ' Perhaps try posting your criticism of the state of NS with some valid points of substance', you're the one whose only 'proof' so far is telling someone to go **** themselves to CAL demos.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...and which simple numbers show this? And how exactly?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And don't go into ' Perhaps try posting your criticism of the state of NS with some valid points of substance', you're the one whose only 'proof' so far is telling someone to go **** themselves to CAL demos.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again... I believe I am right as I base my opinions on facts, things I can back up with demos and not just assertions about the state of play on public servers. It's slightly more logical to base arguments on something verifiable.
My proof is in the demos of the countless games I watch, wheras your proof is seemingly non-existant...
Ridiculous. You know as well as I do that clan balance won't trickle down to pub servers as long as it is dependent on a high level of teamwork. That amount teamwork is impossible on pubs simply because they are mostly strangers playing a game that was not at all pre-planned. You yourself were trying to emphasize the difference between pubs and scrims in your last post, and now we are to believe that unorganized games can be balanced in the exact same way as the top tier?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What? Firstly, balance belongs to every game of Natural Selection but only a small proportion of the community will push that balance to it's limits. Regardless, I didn't state balance belongs to any one group... It's simply practical, you take the games played by the best teams who are faily matched up and observe the balance. Have you got a better way to observe balance? Share, please do...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scrim imbalance and pub imbalance are often two different things caused by issues that only exist in one or the other. If you only think about balance in the "perfect" scenario then you aren't taking into account problems that only occur in the other 95% of games. If I had a choice between perfect balance in the upper 5% or lower 95% I'd pick the latter. Pub games are fundamentally different from scrims because they operate on a lower level of communication and teamwork; not necessarily because of some flaw in the players but just because they are randomly thrown together at the start of the game. Do I think we should attempt to balance for "inferior" teamwork? Yes, absolutely. There should be an incentive to work together as well as possible but it shouldn't be completely necessary to enjoy even a small amount of balance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have hit the nail on the head there, boosting the already very strong Hive 3 aliens would have an effect on scrims as it negates the already miniscule chance marines have to pull it back.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a sacrifice I am willing to make. The chance is already miniscule. The supposedly negative effect on scrim games won't be nearly as pronounced as the positive effect on pubs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the end of the day we have established Hive 3 aliens are very strong already multiple times and yet you are arguing because some players don't know how to finish rounds we should boost the strongest force in the game? I really cannot see how you think this would ever work, perhaps your viewpoint is skewed by too many poor public games. I implore you, watch some demos and get some perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're trying to make it sound like only complete newbies aren't able to quickly finish off marines who are camping their base with HMGs trying to save enough res for a comeback, but that definitely isn't the case. It's not just a matter of not knowing how to play the game; coordinating that effectively with strangers is difficult just because of the nature of pub games. I really cannot see how you think the Fade's glorified Spit is an effective ability. Perhaps your viewpoint is skewed by too many clan scrims? All the demos in the world aren't going to change the fact that these games are in the vast minority, and you're suggesting leaving everybody else in the dust just for their benefit. That's why I used the word "elitist" earlier; you believe that only the most highly skilled players deserve the benefit of this balance, and that everybody in pub games simply isn't skilled enough to be worthy of consideration. Frankly I'd rather balance for the majority, especially when the change would have almost zero impact on who wins clan games since Hive 3 aliens already "dominate."
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it is perfectelly possible and I have seen it happen many times in pick ups.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do I think we should attempt to balance for "inferior" teamwork? Yes, absolutely. There should be an incentive to work together as well as possible but it shouldn't be completely necessary to enjoy even a small amount of balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wheras I don't as I feel it would compromise the delicate balance and strategic quality in Natural-Selection. I feel your suggest basically comes down to dumbing down the game for the masses which is repulsive in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's a sacrifice I am willing to make. The chance is already miniscule. The supposedly negative effect on scrim games won't be nearly as pronounced as the positive effect on pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you would be willing to tarnish the viability of clan games at a 3 Hive level so games finish quicker for newbie players?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All the demos in the world aren't going to change the fact that these games are in the vast minority, and you're suggesting leaving everybody else in the dust just for their benefit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...just as you seem to think it's fine to leave clanners in the dust so that the majority can enjoy quicker games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's why I used the word "elitist" earlier; you believe that only the most highly skilled players deserve the benefit of this balance, and that everybody in pub games simply isn't skilled enough to be worthy of consideration.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's my opinion - you could say it's elitist, I would say it's just realistic. Fine-tuned balance is wasted on Joe Newbie who just wants to kill some aliens LIKE IN THAT FILM LOLZ. The majority of public players simply don't need it as their play styles rarely call for it. They may play a couple of times a week on a server with their friends and it's highly unlikely they will ever have an appreciation of the inner-working of NS or take the game to it's limits like clanners will. That's why nobody wants to watch a public server HLTV though, the quality of the game is dire because it's filled with people who don't want to, or can't, understand Natural Selection.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly I'd rather balance for the majority, especially when the change would have almost zero impact on who wins clan games since Hive 3 aliens already "dominate."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But to me that change would destroy the viability of clan games once Hive 3 is reached and thus is unnacceptable. We can go round in circles all day, my viewpoint isn't going to change. In my view Natural Selection should be balanced so that it's possible to achieve outstanding competitive games determined by real strategy crossed with skill and not games compromised by concessions to people who are unable to appreciate the game.
You guys are like jocks, but for computer games.
You claim that Natural-Selection is the 3rd most popular mod for Half-Life. Now ask yourself why that is? Is it because of 1,000+ pubbers? Or is it because of the handful of clanners? The die-hard clanners will keep the game ALIVE, but I mean just barely alive - where it's on the steampowered list with only a few dozen players a day. Clanners not only add NOTHING to the game, but from reading this, they're resposible for ruining it.
Without the pub base, Natural-Selection would be utterly dead. Hell the clan scene is even begging for help since it's in such sorry shape.
1) The clan base is balancing the game for themselves.
2) The clan base is exponentially smaller then the pub base.
3) This game is popular not because of the 100 or so clanners, but because of the 1,000+ pubbers.
Thus we conclude:
4) The game is not fun, and it is soley the fault of clans.
Concluding from THAT:
5) This game would be MUCH better off for over 80% of the playerbase if the clan scene died.
(On that note, NS has very poor strategy, since every 'strategy' has some stupid counter (special note: Distress Beacon)).
Hahahahaahaha.
Elitists exist in every part of life, congratulations on the realisation.
1.) Zek thinks that major league football, baseball, and soccer should be balanced around games that are played in the backyard of a cookout, to do otherwise would be 'elitist'
2.) EEK is probably gonna bet banned for the third time in a row just because of this thread - Keep up the good work
3.) Acid rockets should deal 50, and charge should deal 1000 a second (300 a second right now means about 40 damage when pressing against a marine? Jeez)
Anyone else learn anything?
Agreed!
Although, technically speaking, I had already learned that before this thread. :/
Yes and it is in at least 90% of cases.
Anyway, how did this thread go from "Turret Damage and Accuracy" to alien hive 3 abilities?
Zek the comparison between backyard games having different rules would be like how a server admin puts a plugin on his server.
Other than that you don't balance the official league game around backyard games.
If you wanna balance out your individual pubs, use plugins, because there is no way a pub is gonna balance NS.
Stronger AR and Charge.
That's all. That's it. Nothing more than that. Nothing that would throw clan play completly off balance (especially considering the fact that scrims at hive 3 usually end up with an alien victory anyway).
Again, plugins, also individual rules do change on lower levels such as (did I mention) plugins, also cl_consistancy, soon to be sv_blockscripts (unfortionately), you can change rate settings, etc. etc. etc. etc. Man the list goes on.
What we are talking about here are the groundwork and big rules of the game, not the smaller ones.
So the example holds, in fact your objection helps me support the analogy even better.
Maybe aliens that die from using xenocide could spawn a few seconds faster.