Oc Discussion
Trevelyan
Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Their cost</div> Its time to wake up and realise a cold hard fact... OCs are NOT worth 10 alien res. How much are they worth? Well that cant be up to me, but for the hell of it, lets point out the faults of the OC.
- They can be shot down from around corners recieving NO/NONE/ZERO/ZIP/ZILCH damage. all it takes is one rine, a load of ammo, and some time. add a second marine and you can do this literally risk free.
- If you crouch and jump up and down in front of them, you take next to no damage. Tell me, how many skulks jump into a turret farm and jump up and down biting a turret, and expect to take it down?
- OCs have the deadly deadly threat of Shotguns. The aliens have NO equivalent turret destroyer, even the Onos' gore pales in comparison to the <i>10 res</i> shotty in destroying turrets. Marines can get this right off the bat... literally seconds into the game.
Gorging costs alone make alien building a pain, Every alien building might as well have an extra 10 res added to the cost. Perma gorging is impossible or even feasable in competative games. The gorge will simply DIE, unless it is hiding in the hive, it is sure to DIE VERY soon. couple that with the OC and you have yourself a problem of setting up defenses around the hive. On this forum i see people often saying "well you shouldn't have let the marines set up that PG to siege in the first place." Thats the point, Aliens simply cannot afford to spend the res on 2-5 OCs to secure an area... EVER. If OCs are built in any significant number, either you just got screwed over by a teammate who was saving for the hive/fade, or the game is already over and there are aliens pounding Marine start. Gorges need Res for res towers, fades, hives, THEY NEED... (notice the word Need) NEEEEEEEEEEED it. Individual res complicate the matter further... The mighty fade may have the res to secure a location, but the sad gorge has none.
What can change the sad state of the OC? Again, A lowered cost may help a bit (especially when you consider boosting upgrade chamber costs if unchaining chambers), But i think the main problem is gorging costs. It should be free, and aliens should start with less res. Free gorges means more people willing to actually go gorge, even for just a short while. With free gorges you can finally spend the 10 res sitting at the bottom of your pool.
Those may not be the solutions, but i know that the OC has issues that need to be looked into.
- They can be shot down from around corners recieving NO/NONE/ZERO/ZIP/ZILCH damage. all it takes is one rine, a load of ammo, and some time. add a second marine and you can do this literally risk free.
- If you crouch and jump up and down in front of them, you take next to no damage. Tell me, how many skulks jump into a turret farm and jump up and down biting a turret, and expect to take it down?
- OCs have the deadly deadly threat of Shotguns. The aliens have NO equivalent turret destroyer, even the Onos' gore pales in comparison to the <i>10 res</i> shotty in destroying turrets. Marines can get this right off the bat... literally seconds into the game.
Gorging costs alone make alien building a pain, Every alien building might as well have an extra 10 res added to the cost. Perma gorging is impossible or even feasable in competative games. The gorge will simply DIE, unless it is hiding in the hive, it is sure to DIE VERY soon. couple that with the OC and you have yourself a problem of setting up defenses around the hive. On this forum i see people often saying "well you shouldn't have let the marines set up that PG to siege in the first place." Thats the point, Aliens simply cannot afford to spend the res on 2-5 OCs to secure an area... EVER. If OCs are built in any significant number, either you just got screwed over by a teammate who was saving for the hive/fade, or the game is already over and there are aliens pounding Marine start. Gorges need Res for res towers, fades, hives, THEY NEED... (notice the word Need) NEEEEEEEEEEED it. Individual res complicate the matter further... The mighty fade may have the res to secure a location, but the sad gorge has none.
What can change the sad state of the OC? Again, A lowered cost may help a bit (especially when you consider boosting upgrade chamber costs if unchaining chambers), But i think the main problem is gorging costs. It should be free, and aliens should start with less res. Free gorges means more people willing to actually go gorge, even for just a short while. With free gorges you can finally spend the 10 res sitting at the bottom of your pool.
Those may not be the solutions, but i know that the OC has issues that need to be looked into.
Comments
- If you crouch and jump up and down in front of them, you take next to no damage. Tell me, how many skulks jump into a turret farm and jump up and down biting a turret, and expect to take it down?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If both of those were fixed OC's might become a usefull defence. As it is all they do is alert you when a marine finds them and kills them with a few ammo packs the comm drops. If they could hit the marines that peek around corners and shoot them it would mean one or two OC's would be usefull for chasing away rambos, and a WOL of them would require the marines to actualy pay for guns, or take casualties by charging them.
Also making the cost scale with the number of OC's in an area might encourage their use. For example the first OC would cost 5, the second 6 and so on up to the 8th costing 13. This would make small OC + DC formations cheap and usefull while not making Massive WOL's cheap (the total cost of a WOL would go down a little but it would make more smaller OC formations more cost effective)
This would encourage more small OC groups, which do an excelent job of killing rambos, and protecting key areas from small groups of LMG marines, while not encouraging lots of huge WOL's that often block whole map areas off, restrict onos movement, and facilitate stalemates.
a) It's a problem in the current res-sharing system.
b) It's a problem in the costs.
c) It's a problem in the OC effiency.
To me, they all seem good choises, and thus there might be several solutions. Lowering res cost (Gorge/OC), changing the way aliens get res, beefing the chambers... Dunno which might prove to be the best way, but guess that is why there are 'playtesters.' <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Currently, though; I agree that OC is almost never a good investiment -excluding the end game when all aliens have practically constant 100 res.
OCs costing less res. Just like you said, OCs are NOT worth 10 res. So, I suggest lowering the cost to 4 res. They cost the same as an upgrade chamber, but the problem is they provide no upgrades. So, if you take away 2 res for every upgrade the chambers dont have (since upgrades cost 2 res each) than you get a 4 res cost. Now, you can secure an area for 20-32 res.
OCs gaining a power boost.
Current OC: 1000 health. Shoots spikes that do 20 damage each. RoF: no idea, but not very fast. Cost: 10 res.
New OC: 500/500 health (yes, a chamber with armor...). Shoots spikes. Each spike does 30 damage, and does 1/2 damage to HA marines. Costs 10 res. This way they chambers effectively become more powerful with each hive. At hive 1 it has 1500 health. At hive 2 it has 1750 health. At hive 3, it has 2000 health. Also, that means that it can keep up with progressing marine technology.
Allowing OCs to be stuck to walls.
Wow, that one explains itself, doesnt it?
#2. OCs can hold ground far FAR better then turrets because of one single factor - gorge healspray. In long open rooms, 2-3 OCs coupled with a gorge and a skulk can stop several marines' squad dead in their tracks for a long time, until they can overwhelm the healspray.
#3. Permagorge has multiple functions. The gorge hiding is a newbie gorge. Those that know what they're doing stick with the front lines when they're not building, healspraying the assaulting aliens. A couple skulks alone aren't much of a threat. A couple of skulks with a gorge become a poor aliens' fade - if they get away, they'll be back on you in a few seconds after some healspray.
OCs do suck, they need a large buff.
After that, I think a small reduction in cost would be in order. Maybe 6-7 res? I think OCs are effective enough as they are without those bugs, but they're much too expensive for what they do. I agree with Hobo and Lucky about their intended purpose, but aliens shouldn't have to sacrifice so much just to accomplish that.
Or work like lerk spikes; not one, big "blurt" of damage, but a constant stream of quick projectiles. Against jets, they would still stay inefficient due of the spray, but versus regular ones it would be a bit better, I think. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just an idea.
Yes they aren't a stopper... But right now they are more of a speed bump. Saying they are just as good as marine turrets is a sign of someone who never has joined the alien team. If anything, alien turrets should be MORE effective then marine ones simply because marines have access to the most powerful anti building equipment in the entire game. Right now the opposite is true, and it shows when the only viable use of the OC is a warning of stupid marines entering a area. Even then good marines will hold their fire to not activate your hive sight.
You dont see single skulks killing entire farms unless the idiot com decided to leave a blind spot. I do see on a regular basis (every god damn game) marines taking down 1-3 OCs. It doesn't take long, and it doesn't cost res if you bring a full load of ammo. You also never see turrets in sufficient numbers without a phase gate right next to it. Marines can instantly teleport to their turrets, aliens cant.
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#2. OCs can hold ground far FAR better then turrets because of one single factor - gorge healspray. In long open rooms, 2-3 OCs coupled with a gorge and a skulk can stop several marines' squad dead in their tracks for a long time, until they can overwhelm the healspray.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens currently cannot afford this untill mid game, when there are fades around and the 2nd hive is building. Untill that point, every single alien res goes into RTs, upgrade chambers, and hives. If you dont.... the marines will just simply out tech you. During mid game marines also have access to Phase gates... Bypassing your precious wall and teleporting directly into your hive, where you have none/little OCs because they cost so damn much and you spent your res building the WOL near their base.
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I'd suggest that wasn't the OC holding ground so much as the gorge and the skulk with the assistance of some OCs.
Similarly, turrets can hold ground relatively well against fades, when backed up with a marine with a welder and an armory.
Personally, I don't mind OC's being a 10 res investment, but I'd like a little more oomph for it. I like the idea of an increased RoF the best
In the game of chess, if I move my knight out, then next move I move it back, that is considered a "loss of time". When a marine is attacking an OC, he is "losing time" which gives a smaller advantage to the aliens. So even though the marine can sit there for a minute or two taking it down, a skulk can find him, or find where he should be.
one gorge and two oc's can hold off the mariens if they dont know any better. when ever i see mariens standing there trying to shoot down a few oc with a gorge healing it i tell them "jump over the oc's and kill the gorge" (when they dont, i do it and they soon learn it is far easyer to kill the oc's with out the gorge).
dead gorge -10rez dead oc's -20 rez (or more if there is a dc).
edit...
it dose not realy matter how many oc's are there. for 8 oc's 3 marines is enough to get over the oc's and kill the gorge.
Similarly, turrets can hold ground relatively well against fades, when backed up with a marine with a welder and an armory. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well said. The ones that are supposed to hold the ground are players, not AI entities.
As for the poster above me, please note the presence of the "skulk" in the equation I provide. There's no way more lucrative to bump your RFK as skulk then by sitting next to the gorge healing a couple of OCs as marines try to rush them. They're usually low on armor and health upon arrival, making them easy 2-bite kills, and with them being occupied with trying to avoid OC fire while shooting both you and gorge, decent skulks should be able to easily nail 3-4 marines relatively quickly and with little chance of them themselves dying.
Read the quote above - I think it described the reason why OCs are fine right now best. I do agree that price for gorging feels quite a bit steep though, but gorge is a builder and an early healer all in one. And it's quite deadly if used correctly, which you would rarely see in the pubs - few pub gorges know how to stick with front lines performing combat healing. Permagorge is very viable in early game - it's just that it's not meant for getting personal RFK, and most people seem to think that if a certain class can't get kills by itself, it sucks.
free gorges and free return to skulks + lower start rez may help with the oc problem. while it dose not adress the oc's short comeings, it dose make it so you can spend your 10rez to help build.
(there is a nice exlpot that makes oc's great but relying on a bug to make up for the short comeings of the oc is no fix. lol that last part could go in another thread about a "feature" in the game).
1 turret alone is worthless. So is 1 OC. Too bad aliens can't afford to put down more then 1.
and as said mareins have a rez pool, so the cost of the com droping a few ammo packs means nealy nothing
personaly if im going to take the time to shoot down oc's (insted of just running past) i spend a little time getting ammo.
edit..
well one time fee of ten rez to build the armory (but that is required if they want hmg, gl and/or ha, jp).
And about marines having a shared res pool: Marines have a higher upkeep cost than the aliens do. The comm needs to drop medpacks, ammo, welders, and a crapload of buildings. The aliens always get ammo for free constantly (not to mention not having to reload), have permanent healing stations for a one time fee of 10, etc. Aliens don't get a shared res pool because their stuff lasts and stays and takes care of themselves after you plomp them down. Imagine if a gorge had to pay res to "refuel" DCs. Aliens have virtually no upkeep cost.
but it is far cheaper to lean out and shoot the oc's with out getting hurt. no matter how well placed the oc's are you can still lean out and shoot them (granted the better the oc's are placed the harder it is the lean out and shoot them).
edit...
i dont think lowering the cost of the oc is the answer (it would be oc hell). the hp is also fine.
if anything just make them more accuate and impossable for a marien to lean out and kill them.
this way if the marens want to pass they have to kill them (just like if the kharra want to get past a t-farm they have to kill it)
I suggest faster spikes
try actally sticking around the oc's instead of letting the marines kill them, no **** they're gonna kill them if you just leave then. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lmao, your serious right? oh god AHHAHAAHAHAH.
ok now that i finished laughing at your first comment, i need to counter your second. OCS are not meant to be dropped for "you to sit around them" just like marine Turrets dont need "Marines to sit around them" OCS should fend for themselves, OCS suck face it we all know. Ninja rambos easily can run past 2-3 of them with no problem. Now if you place them correctly you can prevent or hold off a rush on a hive. But OC cost is horrible.
4 is TOO small, id say 6 would be reasonable.
but then you get marines to easily seige it out. Which brings up another point why OCS are a waste of 10 res and should be lowered cost wise.
What if we reduced the cost of OCs to 6-7, made them hitscan, and lowered the area cap to prevent aliens from completely shutting down rooms with them?