The Current Ns Makes Me Angry.
AUScorpion
Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11842Members
Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11842Members
<div class="IPBDescription">On action and rushed gameplay.</div> Let me start off by saying I've been following Natural Selection since the public release in one form or another.
I've been in clans before for Counterstrike and Team Fortress. Played in multiple small scrims, and quickly became disenchanted with the games for multiple reasons. I have on occasion been invited to join an NS clan, but refused. I have had fun playing the game, and in the past clanning just made playing into work. That's my decision and reasoning, some choose differently.
The reason I get angry playing this game is that there is no release. In version 1.04 and below the game in general took a great deal longer. I refuse to believe that people have "improved" that much. A concious effort by Flayra and others was made to shorten the gameplay. This is all well and good, but it leaves little room for the average player to relax a bit in between intense conflicts.
In music sudden climaxes are often used to startle and refocus the listener on the music being played, otherwise even the most beautiful peice of music would get dull. However it is bad to repeat climax after climax with no valley to relax the listener and disarm them for another engaging climax.
In life, a baby's sudden cry can draw the attention of anyone within earshot. But continuous crying just aggitates everyone around the child.
This is what I feel has happened to NS. The game has been time compressed so badly that it is a continuous high-pitched battle from the very beginning that empowers the imbalances within it, and aggitates the nerves of some who play it.
In the effort to make this game more counterstrike-like in game turnover time, the game its self is suffering and losing appeal to the casual gamer. This is not a first person shooter, this is an RTS/FPS hybrid. The more you focus on speed of play, the more you focus on skill and agressiveness of the players individually (the FPS aspect) while losing focus on team tactics and team cooperation (the RTS aspect).
Along with the speed of play, there are some other issues I see with the game that harm it in an RTS standpoint.
1. High tier marine weapons have no tangible disadvantages. Movement speed does not count, since the weapons are ranged (not melee) and effectively negating the need for a high movement speed.
2. High tier alien units are incapable of withstanding an appropriate amount of fire, deal pathetic damage in melee, and their 3rd hive abilities....stink like a three day old skunk roadkill.
3. Marines have the best base busting equipment availiable to them, yet thay are also capable of setting up the most difficult to bust bases. Electicitfy and a relatively infinite hoard of insta-hit turrets, versus a handful of easily destroyed (hard to afford due to alien resource model) Offense chambers.
4. The resource model its self is unbalanced. In order for aliens to gain reasonable resource amounts and build a hive by the time marines have level 2 weapons and HMGs, the aliens must grab hold of and keep an unreasonable amount of resource points. The marines need...3. If the marines have 3 resouce points, they can afford quite a lot due to their single collective pool. Since marine resource points are so tough, they also typically get more from resource points in areas aliens patrol than an alien resource tower gains in an area patrolled by marines.
This is without any mention of resources for kills, which marines have a better chance of getting due to superiority of the basic marine unit.
I know there are many other issues, and I know I *gasp* might have it all wrong. But something is seriously not right in NSville...and it really chaps my backside.
I've been in clans before for Counterstrike and Team Fortress. Played in multiple small scrims, and quickly became disenchanted with the games for multiple reasons. I have on occasion been invited to join an NS clan, but refused. I have had fun playing the game, and in the past clanning just made playing into work. That's my decision and reasoning, some choose differently.
The reason I get angry playing this game is that there is no release. In version 1.04 and below the game in general took a great deal longer. I refuse to believe that people have "improved" that much. A concious effort by Flayra and others was made to shorten the gameplay. This is all well and good, but it leaves little room for the average player to relax a bit in between intense conflicts.
In music sudden climaxes are often used to startle and refocus the listener on the music being played, otherwise even the most beautiful peice of music would get dull. However it is bad to repeat climax after climax with no valley to relax the listener and disarm them for another engaging climax.
In life, a baby's sudden cry can draw the attention of anyone within earshot. But continuous crying just aggitates everyone around the child.
This is what I feel has happened to NS. The game has been time compressed so badly that it is a continuous high-pitched battle from the very beginning that empowers the imbalances within it, and aggitates the nerves of some who play it.
In the effort to make this game more counterstrike-like in game turnover time, the game its self is suffering and losing appeal to the casual gamer. This is not a first person shooter, this is an RTS/FPS hybrid. The more you focus on speed of play, the more you focus on skill and agressiveness of the players individually (the FPS aspect) while losing focus on team tactics and team cooperation (the RTS aspect).
Along with the speed of play, there are some other issues I see with the game that harm it in an RTS standpoint.
1. High tier marine weapons have no tangible disadvantages. Movement speed does not count, since the weapons are ranged (not melee) and effectively negating the need for a high movement speed.
2. High tier alien units are incapable of withstanding an appropriate amount of fire, deal pathetic damage in melee, and their 3rd hive abilities....stink like a three day old skunk roadkill.
3. Marines have the best base busting equipment availiable to them, yet thay are also capable of setting up the most difficult to bust bases. Electicitfy and a relatively infinite hoard of insta-hit turrets, versus a handful of easily destroyed (hard to afford due to alien resource model) Offense chambers.
4. The resource model its self is unbalanced. In order for aliens to gain reasonable resource amounts and build a hive by the time marines have level 2 weapons and HMGs, the aliens must grab hold of and keep an unreasonable amount of resource points. The marines need...3. If the marines have 3 resouce points, they can afford quite a lot due to their single collective pool. Since marine resource points are so tough, they also typically get more from resource points in areas aliens patrol than an alien resource tower gains in an area patrolled by marines.
This is without any mention of resources for kills, which marines have a better chance of getting due to superiority of the basic marine unit.
I know there are many other issues, and I know I *gasp* might have it all wrong. But something is seriously not right in NSville...and it really chaps my backside.
Comments
Try out www.battleforthegalaxy.com to maybe get a feel for how an organized middle-sized (8v8, not standard 6v6) game plays.
Try out www.battleforthegalaxy.com to maybe get a feel for how an organized middle-sized (8v8, not standard 6v6) game plays. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respect you, I've played with you, and I know you are a heck of a lot better than me...but this is not an answer to the problem.
The very fact that people have to retreat from public servers in order to have a fun game that does not feel like a chore, does not bode well.
It needs to be fixed, not avoided.
I agree with some of what you said (marine res compared to alien res), but I don't agree with the concept that the game is too compact - I think it's at a balance now (for public play, i'm not active in competetive at the moment)
To me it feels like it moves at about the right pace - there isn't any breathing room, but I prefer that - I got bored in the breathing room of v2, and couldn't bear it so much that I just stopped playing.
However, in the absence of good completely public play, imo <i>mildly organized gameplay should become the norm.</i> Meaning the concept of a game that you can join and leave at any time, switch teams and f4 might just not be too workable for NS. Making organized play more common might not be the ultimate solution, but its one that players can take in their own hands (and forum mods here should maybe bother to advertise. Shrug.).
Furthermore, you're right on most of the imbalances - many of them pertain even to competitive play right now. Marines generally don't have to work quite as hard, and being a Hive 1 Skulk is often times an exercise in frustration and futility. And on a public server, you'll be dealing with incompetence and pettyness in putting up chambers, not wasting ressources et cetera and might never be able to get a 2nd Hive or a Fade. While balance for Hive 1 Skulks definitely can be improved, and should, theres no magical recipe to make people simply work together - unless you want to dumb alien teamwork tasks down to the same point as those for the marine grunt.
Unchained chambermods are a good bandaid for this - Gorges can now understand less about the game without shooting their team in the foot, and Skulks instantly become stronger. Due largely to sensory chambers current effects, its not quite suited for competitive play yet (L1 cloaking for 10 res is a tad bit uber, and fairly easy to squeeze into any standard 2 Fade strat), but again its a good bandaid.
Finally, the one point we'll have to agree to disagree on. Pace of the game. Natural-Selection, while fast, is not frantic - you spend a good amount of time on either side just walking around, scouting, and only a few seconds actually fighting. Its not a fragfest, or overpaced - game length varies from ~6 to about 35 minutes, and thats probably as long as anyone wants to sit infront of a computer paying attention non-stop. Longer games aren't necessarily "epic" - they're more like dull Teamdeathmatching (as you noticed elsewhere, its no fun fighting static defenses, a turtlebase etc). Most long games nowadays are an exciting tug-of-war where the advantage is never quite clear - its fairly evident in how current NS is a reasonably good spectator e-sport.
As far as that goes, I can only say games change. We get used to liking the way they are, and their quirks - and are often unable to draw an unbiased comparison, because we view one build through rose-colored lenses, and the other with hate for replacing the old.
Edit : The asymetrical ressourcemodel is okay too. Gamesizes shouldn't excede 8v8, anything else is bad admining - the only servers that go bigger with reasonable success have alien buffs, like voogrus multiple-upgrades-of-the-same-chamber schtick. Small tweaks to the ressource model are hopefully coming within the forseeable future though, it can't exactly be rocket science to increase income per RT as your team gets more players.
Try out www.battleforthegalaxy.com to maybe get a feel for how an organized middle-sized (8v8, not standard 6v6) game plays. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what i understand marines in clan games (given even player skills) own the aliens 90% of the time. To support this fact is that all clan games are at lest 2 rounds one with each clan as marine and alien. And i my self like the longer games, witch each team trying to out think not out gun(claw?) the other.
--Scythe--
well, isnt this how rts works? higher tech units are more expensive, require time and resources to tech up to, but in the end, they are (generally) all around better then low tech units?
Yes and no. "Generally" is the key word.
Higher tier units normally out-perform lower tier units. However, they typically become more specialized to make up for the influx of extra power. This gives them weaknesses that are then covered by the lower tier units if the player is smart.
If you hand every character a shotgun, or hand them grenade launchers, or maybe all HMGs you as the commander should be throwing just as many eggs in just as frail a basket as the aliens who save up for early fades or onos.
Right now, this is not the case. Unlike the alien evolutions, which are painfully melee confined and tend to lose speed and gain hitbox size with each higher evolution thus making the extra armor and hit points worthless and losing the ability to get into melee range, the marine weapons and items have no tangible disadvantages.
Slap in the fact that being in melee does not guarantee anything due to crack jumping in combination with the nearly all-powerful marine melee weapon called the shotgun, and balance grows a bit grim from my point of view.
I hope for some buffs for the aliens in the next build..
Nicely written.
You aren't the first one, and I doubt the last one either. Said before, say again; it's summer, beaches, and the current build isn't that good to compete with them, so let's take a break until the final v3 is published, hmm? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Btw, some good points; compare them to <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72319' target='_blank'>THIS</a> and <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72258' target='_blank'>THIS</a> -two well-written topics about "what is currently wrong."
I loved those long games in 1.0, nowdays it's just history. There're still lots of long games but in the current version of NS, they just suck.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, the one point we'll have to agree to disagree on. Pace of the game. Natural-Selection, while fast, is not frantic - you spend a good amount of time on either side just walking around, scouting, and only a few seconds actually fighting. Its not a fragfest, or overpaced - game length varies from ~6 to about 35 minutes, and thats probably as long as anyone wants to sit infront of a computer paying attention non-stop.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't talk about 'us', it's your opinion. You might be alone with that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as that goes, I can only say games change. We get used to liking the way they are, and their quirks - and are often unable to draw an unbiased comparison, because we view one build through rose-colored lenses, and the other with hate for replacing the old.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like a good friend of mine. Don't fix a working thing. They don't have to change if there's nothing to change. (I'm talking generally) And for me, of the current state of ns sucks. I don't enjoy playing ns as much I used to enjoy. Then there's something wrong. And I'm giving feedback. I don't need lenses. Btw, your sentence works both ways.
Bring back 3h games, bring back 1.04 !
the imbalance more players add to an alien team needs a fix
well, isnt this how rts works? higher tech units are more expensive, require time and resources to tech up to, but in the end, they are (generally) all around better then low tech units? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at the most uber of all uber units in any game since gaming came into existance and uber units were made: The Krogoth from TA:CC.
Krogoth was a superarmored monstrosity. He was armed with dual rocket launchers (which hurt a LOT) for engaging long-range and airborne targets. On his mouth, he had a superlaser weapon akin to the Doomsday Device or Annihilator. This baby didn't fire very often, but when it did, it made sure whatever he was aiming at was going DOWN. Finally, he had a single cannon on each arm. Moderate range, speed, and high damage. The end result was walking appocalypse. You could drop a nuke or two on ol' Krogey and he wasn't gonna take that crap.
Not to mention, he looked awesome.
<img src='http://robyrt.coolserver.net/artkrogoth1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
However, the Krogoth was plenty balanced. First of all, Krogey was at the utter top of the tech tree. A step even above advanced KBot labs, you first had to build the Krogoth Construction Bay, which was the only device capable of building it. Next, you had to literally have the resources of a planetoid to build him. I can't remember off the top of my head but I want to say that energy alone was in the millions. Krogs took about 7 years to build as well. Even with 20 or so supporting constructors, Krogs wasn't gonna leave his berth within two or three minutes. Finally, Krogoth was restricted to land (Not waterproof), could not be lifted or flown anywhere (considering he's about 3x larger then the Commander...), and ambled along at a fairly slow pace. The best weapon to use against the Krogoth was land mines. He'd shamble through the field and soak up a load of damage. If you needed to, massed, cheap units were also somewhat effective, since Krogey's weapon systems massively drained energy, and had a slow refire rate. There was no easy way to get rid of a Krogoth, but the best way to eliminate one was to destroy the berth while he was being built.
Unfortunately, NS lacks that key feature. In Ground Control 2 even, where you don't need to wait for a unit to be built, you still must wait for the dropship, which can be shot down, and you need an accessable landing zone, which can be taking.
Natural-Selection subscribes to the idea that resources alone are somehow balancing the game. The tech tree is no where near as 'large' as in any other RTS: The most powerful factory can be dropped and built within 2 or 3 minutes of the game starting. Krogoth is balanced because you have roughly an eternity to destroy the berth while he's being built. Natural-Selection is equal to dropping Krogoths at whim (okay, HA isn't <i>that</i> powerful, but it's still the same concept).
I've killed HA with a basic skulk, can an infantry kill krogoth like that too?
I've killed HA with a basic skulk, can an infantry kill krogoth like that too? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps in Unreal Annihilation, once they get the "control unit" feature working correctly.
Beyond that, what you are describing is a mixture of skill and good ol' luck since a HA marine is by all accounts a superior unit to a skulk.
Heck you could go through Doom using nothing but the fists...with enough patience. That doesn't make your bloody knuckles any more comparable in damage to the BFG though, now does it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Skill runs both ways, we all understand this. There are some people who play marine so well, you'd swear to a diety they were using aimbots and speed hacks....just as there are people who can make HA/HMG marines soil themselves just by seeing their name as they join the alien team.
I'm not suggesting balance based on skill, I'm simply saying that marine equipment needs more tangible downsides to balance their massive firepower.
Where alien evolutions gain larger easily hit hitboxes and slower travelling speeds(making it more difficult to close range) to match the increase in hitpoints and armor, Marines get a menial decrease in movement speed to justify their higher armor values and positively deadly long and short distance weaponry.
Similarly, for the weaponry, you could increase the size of the muzzle flare as the weapons get powered up.
I do agree though that the "strategy" of NS has been in large part removed, to be replaced by tactics.
A fade's hitbox is not a heck of a lot larger than a skulk's hitbox, it certainly in no way makes up for the extra power AND speed it gains when it evolves. Why should marines get drawbacks on their upgrades while aliens get none?
If your ideas had a chance to make ns more fun, I'm sure I'd go for them, because ns really sucks to play right now, but it sounds like all you're saying is that marines should be nerfed.
In my opinion the gameplay balance of NS is good as it is, because a beginner is able to learn the gameplay in a not too long time, but also it's not too "boring" for the more experienced player.
And in the contrary to AU-Scorpion I would say that the players who play for a long time now, have improved alot. The experienced player knows about the working strategies, the strategic points of a map, counter strategies, hitboxes, techtree etc etc.
Nevertheless the main balancing aspect in the game is in my opinion the number of resources aswell as the cost of resources for upgrades buildings etc. Lowered costs and research times lead to a faster (and easier) game while higher costs stretch the games and make it way more difficult.
But what is the solution to that now? how can you balance this in a way that everyone is happy? I don't think there is a way to do it in one way. A solution it it might be to invent some kind of "skill switch". A server variable which can be adjusted in like three different skill classes with different values for costs, upgrade times etc. like.. you set that variable to experienced and the values will go up for 20% or somewhat. That way a server admin would be able to adjust the skill level to the skill of the players.
Dunno if anyone had that idea before.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->