Turret-centric Pub Strat
MistenTH
Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Turrets AREN'T useless</div> This is a pub strat, mainly because it takes time and res to pull off, but has a good chance of working. Don't try this in tourny, as the kharaa get res too fast.
The idea with this is to protect double res nodes (usually centralised) and crucial chokepoints (best with a RT in it, like cargo in tanith). These turret outposts should not have more than 4 turrets in them, with 3 turrets the optimal and 2 the minimum.
Advantages:
The advantages are territorial control, injuring kharaa forces bypassing the area and helping out in a fight. 30 damage per second from 3 turrets despite blinking is a very potent backup to marines. This strat allows RT areas in the rear to see less skulks & keeps the enemy occupied.
Opening:
Use a standard armour1 opening to give your marines longevity. Locate the hive asap, and dispatch your marines to either double res or a central conflict area. Examples are cargo on tanith, refinery in mineshaft, computer core in eclipse, flight control in metal, ore extraction in origin and the pathway outside cargo hive towards sub-sector in nano.
Execution:
Jam the TF into a corner if possible, allowing even 2 turrets the ability to cover it fully. It is acceptable for the RT in the area not to be covered by turret fire. Marines should always be patrolling. However, if you intend to get a PG in the area later, you might consider placing the TF next to the RT at the risk of having more blindspots initially, then electrifying the RT.
With 30-40 res, you have secured an area, with a RT, with a fantastic advantage in constant damage dealt by with sniper turrets. At the very least, the kharaa will ignore the area until they obtain fades or bilebomb, or at best they try to take it out, distracting & dividing their forces while giving you RFK.
What else you should be doing:
Get more RTs, with this zonal control you should be able to control up to 5 rts with light patrols.
Obtain phase tech and stick it in the centralised area that you have secured, or electrify a RT and stick your PG next to it for forward assaults.
Mine your main base periodically as it is devoid of turrets and is a natural skulk and fade attractor. 8 mines with a shotgun-welding commander is something a fade won't want to stick around to dance with.
Victory:
The breaking point is when fades or a 2nd hive is upping, which usually occurs when you have secured and phase-gated an area, and with 5 rts built. With res being spent on turrets in 1-2 important locations, you won't have the res necessary for other upgrades other than armour1 or even advanced armoury and prototech.
When fades appear, IMMEDIATELY issue out shotguns on a constant basis, with welders a plus. If you don't kill the fades outright, even single marines can possibly curtail their aggression to your undefended rear RTs and other important regions. This allows you to hold on to your 5 or so RTs a bit longer. Tech up from here.
Once your force is equipped and tech is upping, consider a siege-phase with mine support to take out a 2nd building hive if the situation is dire. Once your advanced tech kicks in and a 2nd hive is denied, victory is yours.
Conclusion:
Great for exerting control around an area and denying it to the enemy. 3 turrets provide significantly more damage and range compared to an electrified RT. Must be used in concert with phase tech for full effect.
However, some maps are unsuitable as they have no important regions, like ayumi. Others are more limited in having a double node, but little strategic important like bast. Some like nancy and tanith offer plenty of opportunities and many areas to capture.
Just remember, like all opening strats, this must be done fast, and is also decidedly useless if phasetech is not available once fades arrive. Having 2-4 turrets is ideal, nothing more.
The idea with this is to protect double res nodes (usually centralised) and crucial chokepoints (best with a RT in it, like cargo in tanith). These turret outposts should not have more than 4 turrets in them, with 3 turrets the optimal and 2 the minimum.
Advantages:
The advantages are territorial control, injuring kharaa forces bypassing the area and helping out in a fight. 30 damage per second from 3 turrets despite blinking is a very potent backup to marines. This strat allows RT areas in the rear to see less skulks & keeps the enemy occupied.
Opening:
Use a standard armour1 opening to give your marines longevity. Locate the hive asap, and dispatch your marines to either double res or a central conflict area. Examples are cargo on tanith, refinery in mineshaft, computer core in eclipse, flight control in metal, ore extraction in origin and the pathway outside cargo hive towards sub-sector in nano.
Execution:
Jam the TF into a corner if possible, allowing even 2 turrets the ability to cover it fully. It is acceptable for the RT in the area not to be covered by turret fire. Marines should always be patrolling. However, if you intend to get a PG in the area later, you might consider placing the TF next to the RT at the risk of having more blindspots initially, then electrifying the RT.
With 30-40 res, you have secured an area, with a RT, with a fantastic advantage in constant damage dealt by with sniper turrets. At the very least, the kharaa will ignore the area until they obtain fades or bilebomb, or at best they try to take it out, distracting & dividing their forces while giving you RFK.
What else you should be doing:
Get more RTs, with this zonal control you should be able to control up to 5 rts with light patrols.
Obtain phase tech and stick it in the centralised area that you have secured, or electrify a RT and stick your PG next to it for forward assaults.
Mine your main base periodically as it is devoid of turrets and is a natural skulk and fade attractor. 8 mines with a shotgun-welding commander is something a fade won't want to stick around to dance with.
Victory:
The breaking point is when fades or a 2nd hive is upping, which usually occurs when you have secured and phase-gated an area, and with 5 rts built. With res being spent on turrets in 1-2 important locations, you won't have the res necessary for other upgrades other than armour1 or even advanced armoury and prototech.
When fades appear, IMMEDIATELY issue out shotguns on a constant basis, with welders a plus. If you don't kill the fades outright, even single marines can possibly curtail their aggression to your undefended rear RTs and other important regions. This allows you to hold on to your 5 or so RTs a bit longer. Tech up from here.
Once your force is equipped and tech is upping, consider a siege-phase with mine support to take out a 2nd building hive if the situation is dire. Once your advanced tech kicks in and a 2nd hive is denied, victory is yours.
Conclusion:
Great for exerting control around an area and denying it to the enemy. 3 turrets provide significantly more damage and range compared to an electrified RT. Must be used in concert with phase tech for full effect.
However, some maps are unsuitable as they have no important regions, like ayumi. Others are more limited in having a double node, but little strategic important like bast. Some like nancy and tanith offer plenty of opportunities and many areas to capture.
Just remember, like all opening strats, this must be done fast, and is also decidedly useless if phasetech is not available once fades arrive. Having 2-4 turrets is ideal, nothing more.
Comments
Why can't pubbers see this? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Whoever turretspams biodome hive makes sure that kharaa will never get it back.
<img src='http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/Boomstick/emot-lol.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
This very funny person has a point. All that res used for TFs' and turrets can easily be used for upgrades, and shotties/phase tech which will be vital for when the first fade shows up. Not to mention this sounds pretty tedious.
1) cheaper.
2) kills instantly skulks unless they have l3 carapce.
3) will work as good as elec will on regenfades.
moreover, this isn't about securing RTs
it's about securing choke points. if the choke point has an RT, then it's only better
with shotguns, only lvl1 armor should be enough to _deal_ (not kill) with fades if your marines are decent
since you have 5 RTs at this stage (according to the thread opener), getting weapons 1,2 should be done quite quickly, letting you become the aggresive team
i'm not sure i'd use this tactic, but you certainly shouldn't compare it to electrifying all the RTs.
As for weapon upgrades making you an offensive team - that is very much false. If anything, weapon upgrades scream "defensive", as with weapon upgrades it's "oh noes, stay away from me you alien freak" - mode for all marines. Armor upgrades allow you to get deep into the map, survive and fight enemy toe-to-toe if nessesary. And that's why armor upgrades are always far more important then weapon upgrades - they allow causing constant pressure on the enemy and holding/aquiring map control.
He DID stress that this was for pub ony, meaning the average player will not be uber-skilled. Hence relying on automated defences to strip away some Khara hp's.
I don't think this strat is that bad but it is not a winning strat either. You need to combine it with something else...
<img src='http://www.ns.jolt.co.uk/images/mine_final_full.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
is your best friend.
[+]
-They cost only 10 res per pack of 4 mines.
-High damage.
-Don't need to be build by marines.
-Can be taken around the map and used everywhere.
-Put them on the wall and you have a ladder.
[-]
-You need to replace them after they have blown up some skulks
-It is NOT assured that they will be ran over.
-Useless versus flying Kharaa units
The <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif' /><!--endemo--> however has his [+] and [-] too:
[+]
-Aimbot (they nearly always hit).
-They don't get used up.
-They block pretty good.
[-]
-You need a nearby 10 res Turret Factory to be able to place them, else they wont do ****.
-They lag up the server badly.
-10 damage isnt that much versus higher lifeforms.
Anything I forgot?
Meh here are some hints:
If you want to defend a spot and you have MT:
-Place a PG there for the reinforcements
(Place it near something electrified it possible)
-Place mines there
-Have a group of 2/3 marine patrolling around the map
-Always keep on the pressure, don't just sit there defending some res nodes!
If you keep on attacking with groups of 2-4 marines at different locations, and you manage to keep them alive, you won't have that much trouble winning.
If you're going to use turrets, drop at least 4. Otherwise it's horridly easy to create a blind spot. You'd really be stuck if I brought a friend.
I'll say it again: the only real defense is marines. Preferably offensive marines. A couple turrets can be useful to assist marines assaulting a hive, but they are usually a waste of res defensively.
My vote still lies with placing a phase next to an electrified rt as your key area defenes.
-Turret-farming was never stressed. I stated that the upper limit is 4 turrets, and with proper use of the map, 2 turrets can be the minimum.
-The turrets are not there on their own. Marine patrols are part of the strategy. Being in high-traffic areas, turrets can assist marines in combat. Marines have high damage over time but can suffer from lack of awareness. Turrets have awareness and range (unlike mines and electricity) but not damage. Marines and turrets complement each other in this sense.
-Given that most maps have only 1 such strategic point, and some others 2, a MAXIMUM of 8 turrets can be found in the map. Hardly farming.
-Used in this way, turrets promote OFFENCE, as marines will know instantly whether the turret area is secure from the lack of firing, and can move on to other areas.
-This strat merely presents one much-scoffed at component of NS, the turret. This derisiveness results from "farming", usually MS farming, where turrets are a waste of res. Just like a lockdown is a waste of res as compared to a siege base destroying a building hive. However, a small turret base at high-traffic areas will pay off with constant damage done, prevention and marine assists.
-Strat tested in 8v8 games, with consistently positive results, if used in a suitable map.
Keep an open mind, perhaps I phrased the title wrongly stating it as a strategy giving the impression that it spans the game, rather than an initial opening move. However the rest of the post does show otherwise, stating often that too many turrets is bad, and that the turrets are used in an offensive way near the hive or conflict areas.
Well, yes. There certainly are other strats you may use to win the game, and win it efficiently and with a great deal of fun. But before you guys decide to shoot down well-thought-of contributions like this, perhaps you might consider a couple of things: like bothering to construct equally well-written replies to positively critique well-written ideas like this, or being polite or adult enough to respect someone's opinions without going "OMG n00b!" and jerking off your mouth to wank your own ego.
Or realising that public servers vary greatly in gameplay proficiency, such that no one non-turret "pro" strat really ever works all the time. If the designers of the game thought turrets were truly useless, they would have left it out of the game. So many versions down the road, and turrets are still there. But they're still there. Which most probably means that Cleaveland and his team must want some games to actually include the use of them to some effect, don't you think?
----
Addressing Misten's post directly: I agree with much of your strategy. I tend to rely on turrets to extend the lifespan of heavy-traffic RTs in the early game, since most of the players on the pub servers I play on aren't particularly cooperative or skilled enough to pull off effective non-turret strats (no point going for upgrades if your team can't stop RTs from being destroyed, or doling out shotties/mines just to have those carrying them die all the time). Far-flung RTs I electrify. Those near my base I leave alone, since they can be easily reinforced.
I like having a 3-4 turret arrangements at my important RT/hive locations, used in tandem with a PG and electrified RT/TF, because they're able to ward off skulks and because they draw fire or distract larger alien life forms until my team can phase in to defend it. I don't think the "sentries firing" alert is any more effective than the "structure under attack" one in terms of providing warning.
And, yes, using turret outposts does promote offence because these outposts sometimes draw the attention of the alien team long enough for your own marines to launch a diversionary attack somewhere else. Sacrificing a 45-res RT/TF outpost to allow your team to get in place next to a hive to set up a PG/siege otupost is well worth the cost, IMO.
Comments (I brace myself, I do)?
a) Prolong a game that ended in aliens favor 3 minutes into the game to 15-20 minutes of turtling in MS.
b) Prolong a game that ended in marines favor 3 minutes into the game to 20-25 minutes of crawling across the map and farming it up.
Thats why nobody loves turrets, because you either have a team so inept you're just making an instant endgame, or you have a team that you can rely on to kill things, and farming is simply slowing down your offense and making the game extremely tedious and boring.
Will you get booted most of the time for building a bunch of them outside a hive or double when buildings aren't popping? Yes.
Is that the way things should be? Yes.
Even on pubs, if the kharaa have a modicum of organization (or even just a lack of reswh0res) they will get res too fast for this to work.
-Turret-farming was never stressed. I stated that the upper limit is 4 turrets, and with proper use of the map, 2 turrets can be the minimum.
-The turrets are not there on their own. Marine patrols are part of the strategy. Being in high-traffic areas, turrets can assist marines in combat. Marines have high damage over time but can suffer from lack of awareness. Turrets have awareness and range (unlike mines and electricity) but not damage. Marines and turrets complement each other in this sense.
-Given that most maps have only 1 such strategic point, and some others 2, a MAXIMUM of 8 turrets can be found in the map. Hardly farming.
-Used in this way, turrets promote OFFENCE, as marines will know instantly whether the turret area is secure from the lack of firing, and can move on to other areas.
-This strat merely presents one much-scoffed at component of NS, the turret. This derisiveness results from "farming", usually MS farming, where turrets are a waste of res. Just like a lockdown is a waste of res as compared to a siege base destroying a building hive. However, a small turret base at high-traffic areas will pay off with constant damage done, prevention and marine assists.
-Strat tested in 8v8 games, with consistently positive results, if used in a suitable map.
Keep an open mind, perhaps I phrased the title wrongly stating it as a strategy giving the impression that it spans the game, rather than an initial opening move. However the rest of the post does show otherwise, stating often that too many turrets is bad, and that the turrets are used in an offensive way near the hive or conflict areas. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want demos as proof.
I planned to get those 2 rt(west skylight. topographical analyze/zis?) as normally and leave them plain
BUT next time securing every rt <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> with tf + 2 turrets =50
starting from the uncapped hives which gives the advantage and balances the res flow cos this one drains it quite badly.
Now also forgetting those upgrds and advs to save for those mini bases.
Of course the first fade will be disaster..... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Lets see <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
oh well someone wanted demo for this kind?
Theres a few options:
Elec your rt's.
TF your RT's and give them PG's.
Mine your RT's with PG's
The other stuff that is mix ups of those three.
If you want to secure an area, sure a TF works wonders. But once the TF's dead, so is the whole area. that 10 res structure just cost you 30+ res cus it died. electrifying an RT can work better, you may say 'oh fades can just kill it' but that fade has to sti there for something like 1 minute 30 and will actually run out of adrenaline in its attempt to kill it. This makes timing your ambush on the fade very crucial, theres not much thats actually going to stop the fade killing your bases without marine support.
and like I said... NOONE will EVER get bio back when turretspammed.
place a few TFs down there, lotsa turrets, a few sieges and OBs. Now place the elevators up. Keep them up. gg. they will never get it back.
Stop crying, and just accept that it is a perfectly viable strategy that, while maybe not as fun or intense as your "1337" strategies, some people MIGHT just LIKE. OMGXOR, OPINIONS!!!!!
One Turrent is the same cost as ONE shotty, a shotty does more damage and is mobile.
Stop crying, and just accept that it is a perfectly viable strategy that, while maybe not as fun or intense as your "1337" strategies, some people MIGHT just LIKE. OMGXOR, OPINIONS!!!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow my point had nothing to do with being a leet strat or not, I just think that this strat should NEVER be used because it makes the game horrificly boring. Play as aliens against this strat then tell me you 'like' it. Going up against an invincible wall of turrets as a skulk is the worst experience I have ever had on the HL engine.
Turrets/OCs really need to be removed to fix pub play. Or make them so pathetically weak that nobody will ever build them