Another...
Lafleche
Join Date: 2004-06-18 Member: 29382Members
Join Date: 2004-06-18 Member: 29382Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">American Civilian Beheaded...</div> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GALLOWAY TOWNSHIP, N.J. -- The family of an American captive reportedly beheaded in Saudi Arabia was in seclusion Friday at a town house decorated with yellow ribbons.
An unidentified woman stood outside the house, weeping. A man outside the house who identified himself only as Bill said the family did not want to talk to reporters.
An al-Qaida group said Friday it killed Paul M. Johnson, 49, posting an internet message that showed photographs of a beheaded body. The statement, along with three still photos, was posted on a Web site where the group frequently makes announcements.
The statement appeared around the time that a 72-hour deadline set by the kidnappers ended. Militants threatened to kill him by Friday if the kingdom did not release its al-Qaida prisoners.
"We have not received any indication from official sources on Paul Johnson's status," said Jeff Adams, a spokesman for Lockheed Martin, Johnson's employer. "We like many have heard media reports that Paul has been killed. We obviously hope the reports are not true."
Al-Arabiya television reported Friday that Johnson had been beheaded.
Reached by telephone, an official from Saudi-owned Al-Arabiya in Dubai told The Associated Press that the news of Johnson's death had been reported by the network's correspondent in the Saudi capital.
At the time of his abduction, Johnson was working on targeting and night vision systems for Apache helicopters. Johnson has worked in Saudi Arabia for Lockheed Martin for more than a decade.
A message posted on the defense contractor's Web site reads "Our thoughts and prayers are with Paul M. Johnson Jr. and his family," but a notation on the message refers to it as "Employee Kidnapped."
Candlelight vigils were held Thursday night in his hometown of Eagleswood Township and in Florida, where he lived before moving to the Middle East. About 100 people, including Johnson's niece and daughter, attended the New Jersey vigil.
More than 200 people attended the service in Port St. John, Fla., where Johnson's son, Paul Johnson III, still lives.
Churches in Eagleswood Township and in nearby Little Egg Harbor Township opened their doors so that friends and neighbors could pray for his safe release.
An American flag and yellow ribbons were hung from the front porch at the Little Egg Harbor home of Johnson's sister Friday, but there was no sign of activity inside.
The organization that kidnapped Johnson calls itself al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula. The organization is believed to be led by Abdulaziz Issa Abdul-Mohsin al-Moqrin, the top al-Qaida figure in Saudi Arabia.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now here's the thing. The media might blow this out of proportion just like they did with the Berg beheading, rendering more and more people's views of Iraqis skewed. Executing (a) prisoner(s) seems like fair retaliation to me, after the whole prison scandal. War is Hell. Each side of the war has it's bad apples. The American's have those who were involved with the Prison incident, and the Iraqis have these militants. I beg of you, please do not hold a stereotypical view that all Iraqis are crazy anti-American extremists.
On a lighter note, here are some photos the media would never show.
<a href='http://www.rock103.com/warpics' target='_blank'>http://www.rock103.com/warpics</a>
An unidentified woman stood outside the house, weeping. A man outside the house who identified himself only as Bill said the family did not want to talk to reporters.
An al-Qaida group said Friday it killed Paul M. Johnson, 49, posting an internet message that showed photographs of a beheaded body. The statement, along with three still photos, was posted on a Web site where the group frequently makes announcements.
The statement appeared around the time that a 72-hour deadline set by the kidnappers ended. Militants threatened to kill him by Friday if the kingdom did not release its al-Qaida prisoners.
"We have not received any indication from official sources on Paul Johnson's status," said Jeff Adams, a spokesman for Lockheed Martin, Johnson's employer. "We like many have heard media reports that Paul has been killed. We obviously hope the reports are not true."
Al-Arabiya television reported Friday that Johnson had been beheaded.
Reached by telephone, an official from Saudi-owned Al-Arabiya in Dubai told The Associated Press that the news of Johnson's death had been reported by the network's correspondent in the Saudi capital.
At the time of his abduction, Johnson was working on targeting and night vision systems for Apache helicopters. Johnson has worked in Saudi Arabia for Lockheed Martin for more than a decade.
A message posted on the defense contractor's Web site reads "Our thoughts and prayers are with Paul M. Johnson Jr. and his family," but a notation on the message refers to it as "Employee Kidnapped."
Candlelight vigils were held Thursday night in his hometown of Eagleswood Township and in Florida, where he lived before moving to the Middle East. About 100 people, including Johnson's niece and daughter, attended the New Jersey vigil.
More than 200 people attended the service in Port St. John, Fla., where Johnson's son, Paul Johnson III, still lives.
Churches in Eagleswood Township and in nearby Little Egg Harbor Township opened their doors so that friends and neighbors could pray for his safe release.
An American flag and yellow ribbons were hung from the front porch at the Little Egg Harbor home of Johnson's sister Friday, but there was no sign of activity inside.
The organization that kidnapped Johnson calls itself al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula. The organization is believed to be led by Abdulaziz Issa Abdul-Mohsin al-Moqrin, the top al-Qaida figure in Saudi Arabia.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now here's the thing. The media might blow this out of proportion just like they did with the Berg beheading, rendering more and more people's views of Iraqis skewed. Executing (a) prisoner(s) seems like fair retaliation to me, after the whole prison scandal. War is Hell. Each side of the war has it's bad apples. The American's have those who were involved with the Prison incident, and the Iraqis have these militants. I beg of you, please do not hold a stereotypical view that all Iraqis are crazy anti-American extremists.
On a lighter note, here are some photos the media would never show.
<a href='http://www.rock103.com/warpics' target='_blank'>http://www.rock103.com/warpics</a>
Comments
And as for blowing things out of proportion - I think Andrew Bolt pretty much summed up exactly what was and what wasnt blown out of proportion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After all this hysteria over pictures of Iraqi prisoners being made to pose naked, there's nothing like a live-on-video decapitation to remind us what real evil looks like, and to make us ask if a media that forgot the difference helped to kill Nick Berg.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In case you havent realised - the War in Iraq is over. The American Army is no longer fighting against Iraqi's, it is fighting against insurgents. Insurgents that are exemplified by Islamic fanatics who hack peoples heads off. I dont know what part of the world you come from - but the execution of prisoners is unacceptable. Its dead wrong to execute military prisoners, but to grab a civilian and hack his head off because he happens to be an American is even worse. Their is no such thing as "fair retaliation" against CIVILIANS.
Only those fooled by anti-War Left wing media hysteria are convinced that all Iraqi's are American hating fanatics. For sure the majority of Iraqi's dont hold any warm and fuzzy feelings towards the Americans, but its the same majority that dont want them to leave the country.
I would stomach that attitude so much better had Abu Gharib never happened...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In case you havent realised - the War in Iraq is over. The American Army is no longer fighting against Iraqi's, it is fighting against insurgents<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... wth? insurgents are not Iraqis? please explain, im lost tbh...
[ontopic]
what does a beheading in Saudi Arabia have to do with Iraq?
I would stomach that attitude so much better had Abu Gharib never happened...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fail to see why it was easier to stomach that attitude before you knew. Notice how the world reacted to it? We recognise whats right and wrong no matter which side does it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In case you havent realised - the War in Iraq is over. The American Army is no longer fighting against Iraqi's, it is fighting against insurgents<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... wth? insurgents are not Iraqis? please explain, im lost tbh...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A large number of these insurgents are imported fanatics from Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia etc. While I dont doubt considerable number are Iraqi's, its no longer a war against Iraq the country of Iraq the people - its against the insurgents found within both.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[ontopic]
what does a beheading in Saudi Arabia have to do with Iraq?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original poster drew a line between it and Abu Ghraib. Thats where I got it from. The actual reason given was "either the Saudi govt frees a bunch of our fanatic friends, or off goes his head". Either way he couldnt lose. If the Saudi's complied (and hell froze over) then he'd get his murdering buddies back. When they didnt, off goes the infidels head and his stature in the world of Islamic fundamentalism gets a massive boost.
It would appear that ego boost is a little too late:
<a href='http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=1&u=/ap/20040619/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_kidnapped_american_47' target='_blank'>unlucky</a>
The Terrorist group responsible for the beheading, including their leader, have been killed by Saudi policeman, or so the Saudi's claim.
Thats Karma for ya.
Hope they rot in hell.
<a href='http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24293' target='_blank'>http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/for...&threadid=24293</a>
My name is .::Tin Can::. on that board... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And as for blowing things out of proportion - I think Andrew Bolt pretty much summed up exactly what was and what wasnt blown out of proportion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After all this hysteria over pictures of Iraqi prisoners being made to pose naked, there's nothing like a live-on-video decapitation to remind us what real evil looks like, and to make us ask if a media that forgot the difference helped to kill Nick Berg.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In case you havent realised - the War in Iraq is over. The American Army is no longer fighting against Iraqi's, it is fighting against insurgents. Insurgents that are exemplified by Islamic fanatics who hack peoples heads off. I dont know what part of the world you come from - but the execution of prisoners is unacceptable. Its dead wrong to execute military prisoners, but to grab a civilian and hack his head off because he happens to be an American is even worse. Their is no such thing as "fair retaliation" against CIVILIANS.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont know what part of the world you come from - but the execution of prisoners is unacceptable. Its dead wrong to execute military prisoners, but to grab a civilian and hack his head off because he happens to be an American is even worse. Their is no such thing as "fair retaliation" against CIVILIANS.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you are a bit unenlightened on who the victims of the Abu Ghraib prison were. (Most were) Civilians. Many of them even supported the Americans. What the prison guards did to them is EXTREMELY against their culture's beliefs, and many of them have to now live in utter shame. Some guards even made a prisoner bash his own head into a concrete door until it cracked open. Also, those that were executed by the fanatics knew that coming to Iraq to do contract work was dangerous, coming into a nation with many extremists who were hostile to all Americans.
The thing that bugs me though (And the point I'm trying to get across) is that everyone is so quick to hate the Iraqi's for executing one of the American's, yet they don't seem to mind it that much when Prison guards brutally torture Iraqi's. And no, I'm not talking about the media, I'm talking about people like you, Marine01. I think both should be punished equally. If you guys find those Iraqi's responsible for the decaptitations and give them the death sentence, I expect a sentence no milder given to those involved in the Abu Ghraib scandle.
*EDIT* Sorry, disregard the quote at the top of this post.
The thing that bugs me though (And the point I'm trying to get across) is that everyone is so quick to hate the Iraqi's for executing one of the American's, yet they don't seem to mind it that much when Prison guards brutally torture Iraqi's. And no, I'm not talking about the media, I'm talking about people like you, Marine01. I think both should be punished equally. If you guys find those Iraqi's responsible for the decaptitations and give them the death sentence, I expect a sentence no milder given to those involved in the Abu Ghraib scandle.
*EDIT* Sorry, disregard the quote at the top of this post. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some were civilians, some were soldiers. Either way what the Americans did to them was plain wrong. No where in my above post did I say anything that contradicts the idea that the American Jailers did something very wrong.
My point is that despite these rogue jailers (conspiracy theories "Rumsfeld gave the order" notwithstanding) actions, what these Islamic terrorists did was worse. The only way you could do a just and fair comparison is if American soldiers went and deliberately picked up an Iraqi civilian, dragged him away, put a camera in his face, gave a nifty little speech about how evil Islam is and then cut his head off with a knife, holding it up to the camera and broadcasting it to the world.
Now PLEASE dont fall into the trap of thinking that I believe the American soldiers actions were justified merely because the terrorists actions were worse. I just think a sense of perspective and scale is required here. It angers me that the media will show those photos over and over and over again, moaning how bad this is for the US military, suggesting that this has destroyed the moral reasoning behind the war - and yet things like the Berg beheading/italian hostage execution get vastly less attention. Rogue jailers doing sick sick sick things is NOT equal to live on air decapitation of civilians. I dont hate Iraqi's for doing that, because I differentiate between Iraqi's and insurgents/murdering islamic fanatics.
And we are in complete agreeance over the fate of those jailers and the islamic terrorists. Fetch a rope for the both of them.
The thing that bugs me though (And the point I'm trying to get across) is that everyone is so quick to hate the Iraqi's for executing one of the American's, yet they don't seem to mind it that much when Prison guards brutally torture Iraqi's. And no, I'm not talking about the media, I'm talking about people like you, Marine01. I think both should be punished equally. If you guys find those Iraqi's responsible for the decaptitations and give them the death sentence, I expect a sentence no milder given to those involved in the Abu Ghraib scandle.
*EDIT* Sorry, disregard the quote at the top of this post. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some were civilians, some were soldiers. Either way what the Americans did to them was plain wrong. No where in my above post did I say anything that contradicts the idea that the American Jailers did something very wrong.
My point is that despite these rogue jailers (conspiracy theories "Rumsfeld gave the order" notwithstanding) actions, what these Islamic terrorists did was worse. The only way you could do a just and fair comparison is if American soldiers went and deliberately picked up an Iraqi civilian, dragged him away, put a camera in his face, gave a nifty little speech about how evil Islam is and then cut his head off with a knife, holding it up to the camera and broadcasting it to the world.
Now PLEASE dont fall into the trap of thinking that I believe the American soldiers actions were justified merely because the terrorists actions were worse. I just think a sense of perspective and scale is required here. It angers me that the media will show those photos over and over and over again, moaning how bad this is for the US military, suggesting that this has destroyed the moral reasoning behind the war - and yet things like the Berg beheading/italian hostage execution get vastly less attention. Rogue jailers doing sick sick sick things is NOT equal to live on air decapitation of civilians. I dont hate Iraqi's for doing that, because I differentiate between Iraqi's and insurgents/murdering islamic fanatics.
And we are in complete agreeance over the fate of those jailers and the islamic terrorists. Fetch a rope for the both of them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only way you could do a just and fair comparison is if American soldiers went and deliberately picked up an Iraqi civilian, dragged him away, put a camera in his face, gave a nifty little speech about how evil Islam is and then cut his head off with a knife, holding it up to the camera and broadcasting it to the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Replace "And then cut his head off with a knife" with "And then forced them to do extremely sexual and painful things completely against their will" and you pretty much got what they did. Not to mention they did this to MANY prisoners. 50 let's say? Torturing 50 vs. decapitating 3 (I believe there is a third)... Sounds about equal to me, but then again, that's completely my judgement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No where in my above post did I say anything that contradicts the idea that the American Jailers did something very wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye, I got the wrong impression, I apologize. I'm not the brightest person in the world... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*EDIT* Grrrr... Once again, please ignore the quote at the top...
<a href='http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CAR405A.html' target='_blank'>http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CAR405A.html</a>
Questions the legitimacy of the Berg video.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So by your logic, it's better for someone to say, decapitate two-three of your family members, then 50 people being subjected to "torture" that includes being stripped naked at least, sleep depravation at worst?
Let’s not forget that most of these 50 people are in the position their for something they did wrong, and your family members are innocent people.
I think your judgment is a bit off, but thats my opinion.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So by your logic, it's better for someone to say, decapitate two-three of your family members, then 50 people being subjected to "torture" that includes being stripped naked at least, sleep depravation at worst?
Let’s not forget that most of these 50 people are in the position their for something they did wrong, and your family members are innocent people.
I think your judgment is a bit off, but thats my opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sleep depravation AT WORSE?!?!?!?
We're talking slamming your own into a wall until it breaks open... Committing homosexual acts with another man when you are heterosexual... Dogs biting chunks out of your leg... Being beaten, abused, over and over. And why the hell did you throw in "Family Members" there? All of the prisoners had family too. And as I stated, many of the prisoners were innocent.
The people in the US prisions are guilty.
USA didnt just broke a worldwide recognised convention, they brought they allies down with it. They started a war without any UN support which is kinda mandatory if we want peace in the future
If you paid attention to something besides far left propaganda, you would know that none of the prisoners were truly tortured. Pay attention to what you hear and where you hear it from, particularly in cases like these. The most famous picture of that prison scandal is the guy with the electrical wires attached to his testes, but the reality was that he was TOLD those were electrical wires, but they were nothing but string. Also, they were forced to SIMULATE sexual acts, not actual go through with them. In the case of these two Americans, they were not forced to simulate beheading. They were, in fact, actually beheaded. There is hardly a comparison. I'm not justifying the prison foolishness that occured, but pointing out the impossible comparisons being made between the two.
Not hate towards the Iraqi's here. They are a people caught between a rock and a hard place; the United States beckoning in one corner with wealth, a lasting military and trade alliance, and freedon. In the other corner is the fundamentalist Islamic movement, bringing a religious identity, a goal, a thing to fight for, and a return to an idealized Muslim golden age. The problem is that neither side is willing to recognize the inevitable compromise which must happen in Iraq. The people of Iraq will pull through into a lasting middle ground between the two, and may be the bridge between the two sides, America and Islam.
I'm sorry but I DONT agree with that statement AT ALL. Show me one source that says the wires were fake.
(Reading <a href='http://www.detnews.com/2004/nation/0405/22/nation-160338.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.detnews.com/2004/nation/0405/22/nation-160338.htm</a> for example)
you what? im really worried that somthing like Abu Gharib can generate such different perspectives..
It happened one way, there is hardly any room for interpretation, and in fact, im going to start up another thread once ive found enough info so that we can discuss this without hijacking the current thread.
for the time being, ill just point out that at least one inmate was 'interogated' to death.
I do not consider killing a possibly innocent man as simply foolishness.
Well, the big deal is that the US came in, took over an entire country with questionable reasons, promised the people that everything would be better, grandiosely named their campaign "Operation: Iraqi Freedom", and yet, people are tortured and humiliated, against the agreement to the results of the Geneva convention, by the country that promised every will be fine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Americans didnt execute anyone in their prisons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We still don't know what is happening in the Guantanamo prison, so I would be much more careful about making claims like that.
Not hate towards the Iraqi's here. They are a people caught between a rock and a hard place; the United States beckoning in one corner with wealth, a lasting military and trade alliance, and freedon. In the other corner is the fundamentalist Islamic movement, bringing a religious identity, a goal, a thing to fight for, and a return to an idealized Muslim golden age. The problem is that neither side is willing to recognize the inevitable compromise which must happen in Iraq. The people of Iraq will pull through into a lasting middle ground between the two, and may be the bridge between the two sides, America and Islam. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
okay, if we hooked your balls up with wires (telling you we can jolt your balls with it), and told you to stand and stay on the box, will you do it? or will you risk your manhood? Chances are, youll do as the prisoner did, stay standing on the box for extended periods of time. Essentially the same outcome.
Would you be humiliated if people made you SIMULATE sexual acts with a bunch of random naked guys?
If this aint torture, Im sure you'd have no problem going through this stuff <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Terrorists (not the Iraqi army, they do NOT represent the Iraqi people) beheaded random Americans.
American soldiers (representing the US of A) tortured random Iraqis, not all proven guilty.
We're talking slamming your own into a wall until it breaks open... Committing homosexual acts with another man when you are heterosexual... Dogs biting chunks out of your leg... Being beaten, abused, over and over. And why the hell did you throw in "Family Members" there? All of the prisoners had family too. And as I stated, many of the prisoners were innocent. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want proof that people had "chunks bitten out of their legs", I want proof people were "beaten and physically abused over and over".
I threw family members in because I wanted you to realize that the American civilians were innocent people, many of the prisoners in Abu were insurgents or anti-American trouble makers, word it how ever you want but we don't just run down to the market grab people and lock them up, those people did something.
And just like our prisons here in America, mistakes are made, innocent men are locked up for crimes they didn't commit. In Iraq I'm sure it's more of case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, a wrong place such as...the burning of American contractors bodies hung over a bridge...while chanting "death to America". You know that kind of wrong place.
That's a gross oversimplification, reasa. If you want to discuss the (in)fallability of the US army in crime prosecution, you will have to face such cases as the airstrike on the provably civil wedding and similiar cases. This land is a war zone, it is <i>impossible</i> for mere soldiers, whoms perspective is in such cases inevitably far from open and objective, to truly limit arrests to 'bad' people, which is basically what you want to label Abu Grahibs inmates as. This is, again, inevitable in such a situation, but makes the torture of such people even less acceptable.
We're talking slamming your own into a wall until it breaks open... Committing homosexual acts with another man when you are heterosexual... Dogs biting chunks out of your leg... Being beaten, abused, over and over. And why the hell did you throw in "Family Members" there? All of the prisoners had family too. And as I stated, many of the prisoners were innocent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want proof that people had "chunks bitten out of their legs", I want proof people were "beaten and physically abused over and over".
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You want proof?
<a href='http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444' target='_blank'>http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444</a>
Ooh look at that... First picture has a dog growling at the detainee, second has the detainee on the floor with a serious leg wound. The pictures speak for themselves.
And look too, there's a dead one. Now, instead of having his head chopped off in a matter of less than a minute, he was probably beaten to his death for hours.
And look too, there's a dead one. Now, instead of having his head chopped off in a matter of less than a minute, he was probably beaten to his death for hours. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your right they do, I'm no doctor but that does not appear to be a wound caused by a dog bite. I don't know what circumstances led to those wounds, but they seem to clear cut and even for a dog bite.
The third picture looks like a bullet wound.
As for the dead one well the site says it best...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Manadel al-Jamadi was captured in November by <b>US Navy SEALs, an elite commando force.</b> Pentagon sources and the CIA have said that Mr. al-Jamadi was already in poor health when he was turned over to prison authorities on Nov. 4, but the Navy has denied this, claiming that Mr. al-Jamadi was received at the prison in good health. His autopsy revealed that he had been beaten to death<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This man was no innocent Iraqi civilian, Navy SEAL's are not sent in unless their sure the person is worth it. I don't condone him being beaten, if in fact he was, but I wouldn't doubt that the man was responsible for the deaths of some American soldiers.
I'm not going to defend these soldiers anymore, it's obvious the military put complete and total morons in charge of these prisoners, the fact that they took all these pictures says enough about their intelligence.
And look too, there's a dead one. Now, instead of having his head chopped off in a matter of less than a minute, he was probably beaten to his death for hours. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your right they do, I'm no doctor but that does not appear to be a wound caused by a dog bite. I don't know what circumstances led to those wounds, but they seem to clear cut and even for a dog bite.
The third picture looks like a bullet wound.
As for the dead one well the site says it best...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Manadel al-Jamadi was captured in November by <b>US Navy SEALs, an elite commando force.</b> Pentagon sources and the CIA have said that Mr. al-Jamadi was already in poor health when he was turned over to prison authorities on Nov. 4, but the Navy has denied this, claiming that Mr. al-Jamadi was received at the prison in good health. His autopsy revealed that he had been beaten to death<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This man was no innocent Iraqi civilian, Navy SEAL's are not sent in unless their sure the person is worth it. I don't condone him being beaten, if in fact he was, but I wouldn't doubt that the man was responsible for the deaths of some American soldiers.
I'm not going to defend these soldiers anymore, it's obvious the military put complete and total morons in charge of these prisoners, the fact that they took all these pictures says enough about their intelligence. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
thats real cold...
I get the impression that if the current admin turned out to be run by the devil incarnate, you would still argue for them...
im retiring from this topic, its leaving a bitter taste.
I get the impression that if the current admin turned out to be run by the devil incarnate, you would still argue for them...
im retiring from this topic, its leaving a bitter taste. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No where did I even mention the Bush Administration.
I was just presenting another side of the issue and trying to defend the US military.
Even if either were true, it doesnt change a single fact that both parties agree on - what those American soldiers did was wrong, and should be punished HARSHLY.
As for those dog bites - even the website you posted doesnt claim that they ARE, just that they might be. As a vet nurse, I've seen and recieved a couple of dog bites in my lifetime, and if that was from a trained attack dog then its probably the stupidest attack dog ever. They are trained to go for the face and hands, not the leg, partly because its almost impossible for them to get their jaws all the way open and around the leg for a good grip.
I dont know if those Iraqi's were actually killed by the interrogators - everything I have seen on the news is about them posing with dead Iraqi's, not murdering them.
we capture their soldiers and give them immediate medical treatment if necessary, and then treat them as POWs.
they capture our soldiers and, well.. let's just say they don't follow any kind of system or geneva convention.
the desecration of a dead human body is never justified.