Resource Bug Is Not The Problem.
Visser
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6613Members
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6613Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And the patch is not a magic wand.</div> Everyone blames the resource bug for all the balance issues. What the balance issues are im not going to go into (i dont think there are any MAJOR ones). What i want to say is this: balance still isnt brilliant WITHOUT the bug. Due to a combo of opping my own server and playing on test patch servers, i have only ever played ONE game with the resource bug. And having also played as commander, unless you have a TOTAL n00b team, there is still no problems starting the game off with 2-3 turrets in base early game and a constant 10 minimum by the end of it. I can hand out HMG/jetpack all day (not grens as im trying to give the aliens a slight break) long to anyone who dies and rarly have cash issues. Sending amrines off to fill up a hive with turrets is still no big deal - you just have to keep them there as live turrets for a little long as you wait for cash to come in. But you can still secure it plenty beyond any early game means of aliens touching it.
HMG DOES come slower but still by no means slowly. Simply by ignoreing a resource node saves the 22 RP, turret factory and multiple turret costs (every other one can still easily be turreted up), there is the tech cost requirements for hi tech stuff right there.
PS because i cant resist, here is what i think the imbalances are <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
-siege hitting thru walls (is still quite possable to get and still have it heavily defended)
-gren radius should be greatly reduced (half/quarter)
HMG DOES come slower but still by no means slowly. Simply by ignoreing a resource node saves the 22 RP, turret factory and multiple turret costs (every other one can still easily be turreted up), there is the tech cost requirements for hi tech stuff right there.
PS because i cant resist, here is what i think the imbalances are <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
-siege hitting thru walls (is still quite possable to get and still have it heavily defended)
-gren radius should be greatly reduced (half/quarter)
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Comments
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> <span style='color:red'>
// Number that each team starts with
ns_initialalienpoints "10"
ns_initialmarinepoints "100"
</span>
</span>
Do you see anthing screwed up about that or are you one of those ppl that ONLY! play on the mariens side? It's hard to get your hive's going when you have to wait 5 min's to to build a turret ( 8 for a resource tower )after waiting 2 min's to evlove into a gorge. So you've just wasted 7-12 min's just TRYING to get enough stuff built so your team can ATTEMPT an attack, and by that time the marines have HMG's and/or HA!!!!!!
A long time ago I started watching this mod and what cam to view was that for a marine to survive you would have to stick together and work as a team. Right now that is NOT the case
Right now all you have to do is get a HMG and Heavy armor and you can run around by yourself and do whatever you please and not have to worry about ANYTHING the aliens throw your way.
now if it were not that the marines have so much resources you would have ONE person with a HMG and 4 or 5 of his teammates cowering around him so he could protect them.
And when it comes to aliens being able to kill a heavy armor that’s fine with me. 5 - 7 bites to kill a heavy armor is fine but the game becomes unbalanced when 10 guys on marines are all HMG heavy armored!
So YES resources are the problem. One HMG would not be able to take out a properly manned alien base.
So while the aliens do need to get better and have the tools to win. Marines were never (to the best of my knowledge) meant to be spamming around with everyone toting a HMG or nades.
I think that if you were to ask the play testers that you would find that they never had a case were the entire apposing team was outfitted with HMG’s and nade launchers unless they did something stooped and let the marines capture a vast majority of the resources.
I used to alternate teams ever round, now i play only aliens as they are so much more fun. (nm balance)
I know well the pain of waiting, waiting, to get the cash for anything.
// Number that each team starts with
ns_initialalienpoints "10"
ns_initialmarinepoints "100"
i could understand the alien's geting half of what the marines do, but 1/10th wtf was that guy smoking!
Skulks are great in early game, and NEVER get useless. I've spent countless games running into marine base scaring the hell out of marines. You know what? If they're scared of being chomped as soon as they exit they're less likely to wander out of base and kill your hive before you've got any good defences. Also use skulks to take out any attempts for marines to get resource towers and you're well on your way to victory. So basically, no, the income on aliens is fine. Just don't have too many gorges. As many PT's have said, a rule of thumb is roughly 1 gorge per 4 aliens and even at that, with large teams it can be less.
Also, before you give me the crap about "Oh you're just a marine player", wrong!
I've spent at least 80% of the time I've played NS as an alien, I've learnt some basic tactics, I've slighty improved my skills and HELL, I've won a LOT of games as alien with my team.
Edit: Exactly my point Fade Affe. Well put.
Creep has a valid point. The aliens early game consists of gorge's waiting 5 minutes to build a damn resource tower. Whilst the little skulks try their damndest to take out some marines. This skulk harassment can be very effective, but has little use when the extra time simply evens things out. By the time the marines get their bearings and build another resource tower, the gorge's are finally ready to plant one. I don't know if this is on purpose or not, but, I would think after coordinating rush attacks with the skulks and holding marines back a little would result in an alien advantage, not simply make them even.
My team run's around trying to kill marines and they just end up dying! I only use skulk to Scout/Move faster when I have enough resources.
2) You can build a defensive tower on just one hive, the Sensor one with two Hive's and the Movement one with 3 hive's. ( That's for whoever posted the thing about the tower's )
I Gorge because I am good at it as most of the people that I play with will tell you, the main problem that you people are failing to understand is that with only 10 RP's I can't build fast enough, I have the ability to start building something and walking away from it knowing that it will finish it's self. That's good for Defensive tower's in the hive so I can complete the turret's while that is building it's self!
P.S. Flip Understand's, why can't the rest of you?
Is that how it works? that's good. I've always started with defense when I started the round, but have come in on games where sensory was the only chamber, which I now see was due to a hive being lost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't know if this is on purpose or not, but, I would think after coordinating rush attacks with the skulks and holding marines back a little would result in an alien advantage, not simply make them even. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
disagree, the scenario you describe is in my opinion both teams doing everything right. resulting in an even match is the logical result. If the marines weren't listening to their commander/building bases and all wandering off alone, you would be at an alien advantage at the end of that scenario.
As for Gorge and RPs... Creep, don't talk to me about knowing the game. I've been playtesting and balancing this game for 4 months. If you go gorge at the beginning of the game, expect to wait a short while before you can build anything. This is by design; if the aliens can shoot up their tech tree, they will destroy the marines. Spend some time as a skulk; your resources will be nice and high in no time.
Also, not manually building your chambers is foolish; they take a ridiculous amount of time to build by themselves. This is especially true for resource chambers.
Believe it or not Creep, you actually can build something apart from a Defence chamber if you only have one hive. I have played many games as a Gorge where I built a Sensory chamber for the first hive and actually didn't end up building a Defence chamber until we had three hives up.
At the very start of the game when no chambers have been built, a gorge can build what ever chamber he feels like, but as soon as he has started building that chamber, whether it be a defence chamber, a sensory chamber or a movement chamber. Until another hive comes online, that is the only type of chamber he can build.
As for letting a building build itself. I only do that when I have heaps of RPs and I'm in a pretty safe place. But most of the time I manually build my buildings, because 1, it's faster and 2, it helps pass the time while I wait for some more resources to flow in.
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Also, not manually building your chambers is foolish; they take a ridiculous amount of time to build by themselves. This is especially true for resource chambers.
You just dont understand how to do it, that's your problem!
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Um, that makes no sense at all. You were saying that you should let down a chamber and let it build by itself. Coil says you should help build it by Using it, and you tell him he doens't understand how.
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I love these playtester's that think their opinion means more than someone elses. Take your head out of your ass.
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What they say does mean a lot. They know this game a lot better than most of us do. I've been playing since thursday(which makes 5 days), and so has everyone else. The playtesters have played for 4 months. They most likely have tried many different strategies and know this game inside out. If it took the gorges 7-15 minutes to get anything going, they most likely would have noted that. If the marines constantly won, they would have noted that. But no, they thought it was fine because it is fine.
IMO, at the moment the aliens seem overpowered than underpowered, but that's most likely because no one is elite at the game yet. I haven't seen many games where marines have successfully stopped early skulk rushes without having to resort to turtling. I don't mean that the game is over in 5 minutes, but that the rushing delays the marines so much that the aliens can secure the hives and resources very easily and ultimately win.
You CAN build any upgrade chamber on the first hive. You can pick either of the two remaining for the second hive. Logically, you don't really have much of a choice after the third hive.
I'll also stand by coil that not manually building chambers is silly -- Dropping a number at one time is fine, and quite effective, but it doesn't really make much sense to NOT go back and hurry them along after you've placed the last chamber, unless you're being charged by a squad of marines at which point the unbuilt chambers won't last anyway.
Now for the more personal rant: I'm sick of seeing people shred playtesters for being "ignorant" or telling us to take our head out of our ass. We didn't play this game for 6 months (yes, the first PT builds showed up in April or so) for nothing. All things said, I think the balance was pretty goddamned good for a mod of this style for a first release.
Problem is, everyone expects it to be dead-on perfect.
Fact of the matter is, regardless of who your playtest team is, you can NOT fully predict the settings under which public play will occur. You could have the best playtesters on the face of the earth, and still wouldn't have any clue how it would perform in public short of making a public playtest release. (and if anyone asks why THAT wasn't done, I'll probably spontaneously combust...)
For 6 months the game was tailored to the playtesters needs, and (dare I say) the way the game was really supposed to be played. While things are working out in pub servers quite well, there are issues that will have to be addressed. Those are being addressed now. I, other playtesters, and numerous public players are nervous about some of the changes while others jump for joy at them, but with some of the overwhelming alien victories out there already, the balance changes in addition to the marine resource scalar could completely tip the scales.
It's Flay's game in the end, though, and he knows what's best for it if it's going to be successful in a public environment.
Anyway. Isn't it about time for someone to yell at me to get off my soap box and pull my head out of my ass?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, not manually building your chambers is foolish; they take a ridiculous amount of time to build by themselves. This is especially true for resource chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just dont understand how to do it, that's your problem!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A person who's been playing for 5 days or less telling a <b>Play Tester</b> thats been playing for about 6 months that he "must be a very slow learner."
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Telling <b>US</b> to get off our soap boxes? Please.
You can build any damn well chamber you freaking please at the begining of the game, as KFS said in a somewhat less attackfull manor.
And KFS ... thanks for putting all of my rants and raves the past 5 days into something I couldnt make it ..
er, that is, some what polite, well thought out and such ...
Marines are grunt - they do what they are told, use what they give, built what they are are commanded. Without a decent commander, the marines can quickly deviate into nothing, fighting Onos with light machine guns and no armour. Meanwhile, the aliens can do whatever they want - individually build what they want, be who they want, do what they want. Aliens don't require a central command to operate - they simply have to use their individual tacticle minds - thats basically the difference.
Aliens are powerful if the player can use them - 99.9% of complains have come from players who cannot utilise alien abilities and strengths properly. Marines are powerful if the players can work together effectively, and they have a commander who they trust, trusts them, is competent and most importantly - knows what they are doing. You mustn't of played any games with bad or new commanders - fights deviate into desperant low powered grunt rushes which onos simply plow through.
I'm sick of people blaming game imbalances on marines - yes, they can get insanely powerful - <b>but only if they are properly utilised</b>. Aliens have the potential to easily dominate if people check their score screens and see who is using what, and what they are more competent doing. I've seen matches where Aliens have mutilised their enemies, simply because of decent players.
Play a marine game with a bad commander and useless crew - watch how fast you die.
<a href='http://vi55er.tripod.com/flame.txt' target='_blank'>open in new window for (humerous) picutre that tripod wont let me direct link</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Play a marine game with a bad commander and useless crew - watch how fast you die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is NO commander bad enough to not know how to get hmg/ha/grens/jetpack and turretspam. Smacktards always know the tools of their trade. Once these are being spammed out 1 good marine can carry the team and the smacktards will easily point + click their way thru most battles. (how is 1 marine (me one game) and NO commander beating 5 aliens for ya)
Oh I beg to differ <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll have to get some demos to prove it at some point <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The one thats pretty much playing a RTS with a infinate resource cheat?
The one that lets you spam turrets, HA and HMGs like mad?
The one thats no longer going to exist in a few days?
Once the resources are collected at the correct rate, you cant afford to do it.
Play on a Beta server, find out for your self, see who ends up winning the majority of the games.
Actually, I believe that the narrow minded folks aren't the playtesters; they're the ones immediately coming up with the knee-jerk reaction that this game is terribly balanced.
Six months worth of games means that this game was played A LOT, and many skill levels were taken into account in order to achieve balance.
If you think that you can only build defense chambers on the first hive, and that auto-building chambers is a bad idea, this means you don't really know how to play as an alien yet. There's no shame in that-- the game has <b>only</b> been out for five days. It takes a little bit to pick it up.
However, the game was balanced with two equally skilled teams in mind-- and as we've seen, more and more people are coming around to the fact that, "Hey, these aliens aren't so <b>under</b>powered <i>after all</i>, if you just learn how to exploit their strengths!"
But no, that's a great idea-- let's throw six months of balancing out the window based on five days of gameplay. Because I'm <b>sure</b> that a few months from now, the same balance issues wouldn't appear as they did as our playtesters gained experience in the game. I'm sure it'd be apples and oranges.
My prediction: With the new patch, you will see marines getting owned, hard, by the people who have been taking the time to learn the nuances of playing alien. When guys are used to a quick tech tree and the protection of unlimited turrets, they're going to be in for a rather rude awakening, and the aliens that have already compensated for those odds are going to find themselves like kids in a candy store.
Moral of the story: Your concept of balance will evolve as your skills evolve. If it was geared towards the out-of-the-box brand spanking new player exclusively, this game would have a very limited fun factor.
On a side note, didn't we have a swear filter at some point?
If you dont like waiting around here is what i suggest(actually this was suggested by a playtester i just happened to take his advice seeing as how hes a vet). When the game starts, nobody switch to gorge, everybody stick together and head for their base. When you get there first things first tag all the marines with parasites, then kill what you can. If you die, when you respawn go gorge, your resources will have built up a bit and the marines just felt some early wrath. Hell, if they are incompentants you might have already tagged their command center, GG. And if not, you now know where most of the marines are, go get them as they start building resource nodes! And for god's sake, no more than one gorge per hive.... they actually get resources pretty fast when you have the correct number of them.
Final note, Id like to personally throw a huge Thank You to all the playtesters, no matter what anyone else says I can say with total honesty that I have rarely seen such a well tested and balanced game at release. Aside from the server code I have personally only seen 3-5 real "bugs" since release, and in the state of gaming today this is far below the average <u>retail</u> product! Seriously, these guys gave their time so we could have a more fun game in the end, and I for one will not only listen intently to what they have to say, but will stand up and say "Thank you for saying it!"
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> *chomp* <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> Happy Hunting.
resource bug + ns := sc + BGH
so basically inf resources...except aliens don't have this "trait"
also creep. stfu. u. know. nothing.
as for talking 2 pters like you did, i would personally ban you for that.
I do not think that it will be very balanced for the regular pub. Then again it was never tested in a pub. It was tested on a closed server were they used teamwork, and that is what it is balanced to. It is not the Devs fault if people want to use the typical pub mentality.
Instead of whining about a free game, try to teach and lead your team. This may sound stupid, but it will balance the game out.
If you've got a gripe against the mod, that's fine. Do it nicely. This is not welcome. I'm a bit disapointed with both parties.
Cool heads, calm thinking. No flaming. Play by the rules or leave, and that's all there is to it.