<!--QuoteBegin-Xyrcai+Jun 8 2004, 06:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xyrcai @ Jun 8 2004, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also have to take in res cost of the Onos, alone.. 75 res is a big chunk for an alien.
Where as HMG/HA trains are VERY common.. I've never seen an onos train. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You must have missed the 9 Onos rush on the g4b2s 28 person server. Map is ns_tanith, aliens have the entire map except for MS, Sat Comm hive...
9 Onos enter Sat Comm. three TFs, two phase gates, pretty much locked down, with HMGs covering it.... The 9 Onos promptly die and we lose because we now have 0 higher lifeforms and they got a full blown heavy train. Movement rush was out of the question... so that's 13-14 marines probably much less owned 9 Onos....
EDIT: I am not going to spam another post, but the game did go on for one hour and 50 minutes.....
I'm amazed aliens managed enough res for 9 onos on a 28 person server. That's already way stacked for marines res-wise. And yes, it's pretty much horribly sad that 9 onos couldn't put a dent in a hive lockdown. If there were 9 onos, I'm guessing the game had been on for a long time, which meant marines had w3/a3 and probably HMGs, shotties, etc. etc. Just goes to show that top tier alien tech is nowhere near top tier marine tech.
Skill shouldn't even MATTER in a situation like that. NINE ONOS. That's literally tens of thousands of points of damage the marines had to do to kill them all. Marine weapons are just overpowered at high levels, because no one has ever though it would be a good idea to de-buff them after all the buffs they got to counter the wacky hitbox problems in the 2.x days...
In order for the onos to be viable against one or more HAs. He needs to be able to hit and run. Kinda like 1.04's charge. A reduced damage slot2 charge would make the onos live quite awhile longer. He would be more viable in early on games, but not over-powered. Otherwise, its fades and lerks, they have surperior mobility, which <b>IS</b> Needed for any alien to survive.
Why not just admit that the poor guy is a hit and run animal now, move charge to slot two, and make it work just like blink. You charge when you press the button, you stop charging when you take your finger off of it. Might actually make the onos useful. He'd turn into a ground based beefy fade. Alien strat already centers entirely around fielding fades, why not just admit that and go with the flow?
Might as well rename the onos into superfade or something...the fade is already a hit and run unit. Why would we want yet another such unit which is only a bit bigger and has more HP?
You know, reswise, a HA costs what? 65 Res with HA, HMG and welder? (correct me if I'm wrong) On top of that he has upgrades which stick with him all the time. Several kinds of upgrades even. Weapon damage, armor boost, MT, ect...on top of that it's a ranged unit.
Take the Onos now. 100 res, upgrades which doesn't stick when he dies. Close range unit only. Even one single HA has the potential of being a serious threat to the Onos if he gets caught at a distance. 2 HA's with a res total of 130 (assuming I now got all the costs correctly) is a critital threat to an Onos. Unless he stomps like mad and devour, he won't stand a chance, and even with stomp + devour the chance of the onos being gunned down is extremely high. All both HE's have to do is to hold the firebutton down until the onos is dead.
The thing the onos was designed to do doesn't work at all. Mow through marines. One onos should IMO be worth about 2 HA's and be able to take them down with relative ease. The individual resource system of the khaara and the high cost of evolving to an onos, should be worth it's cost.
Rines has no problems spitting out HA's and HMG's...they have a collective resourcepool. Even with only a handful of restowers going, they can spit out quite a bit of equipment. As for the khaara...once you die, you better have enough res to evolve again or it will all be over unless you get enough time to gain the res you need.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Man, where have you been since 1.04? Onos are now 75 res dude, and yeah, I'd like them to be able ot own the highest marine tech as well...only if lifeforms were tied to hives. Onos needs to go back to hive 3, and then changed so they're nearly unstoppable. Unstoppable onos at 2 hives would be overpowered.
Oh btw, if those 9 onos didn't have backup (from say...I dunno...LERKS with umbra) then they deserved to die. No teamwork=good game. A few fades should've blinked around like mad, wasting the marines' bullets, while the lerks umbraed the palce up right before the 9 Onos charged in for the assault.
Or, you can go play on smaller servers. I like 8 on 8. Marine power grows exponentially with each additional player. On small games, you see that alien high tech beats marine high tech easily. Try it on a 2v2 game (the other extreme) and you'll see what I mean.
Oh yeah...it's 75 res now...lol...I had the 1.04 in my head when I typed this; from the other thread about onos <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->... Should go back to 100 though with the beefing up to one onos = 2 or 2 and a half HA's...
BTW...IMO 9 onos should be able to wreck an entire map even without lerk support...with a few casualties of course...
Onos rushes are a joke. I think they're actually easier to kill than just one Onos because they usually aren't as careful when in a group. I understand that one lerk with umbra(which has been nerfed btw) and maybe a fade or two would have sealed the deal, but think about it: NINE ONOSES. <i>Maybe</i> the marines should have been able to kill a number of them, but the fact that they weren't even able to clear out one hive room indicates how pathetic the Onos really is against upgraded HMGs.
First of all something needs to be done about the huge terrain disadvantages inherent to the 2.0+ Onos. That's probably the biggest reason the 9 onoses got raped in sat comm. Stomp doesn't go up hills, much less ledges. There are a whole bunch of places in each map where marines can stand to be impervious to stomp, many of which are critical areas of the map like hives or siege spots. If we're going to keep the stun-spam Onos then Stomp has to be changed to work regardless of altitude, or at least a good 20 feet into the air(shorter for JPs if that's possible). The Onos is sending a huge shockwave into the ground, why can't it travel in diagonal lines or up a small ledge?
The counter to stomp should be spreading out so as not to be hit all at once. Marines shouldn't be completely immune to it.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Jun 8 2004, 12:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Jun 8 2004, 12:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Ots+Jun 8 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ots @ Jun 8 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Umm yeah, just few days ago i was ramboing around as a la/sg and this onos comes, it stomps and tryes to devour me, misses me, i jump around him while he keeps stomping and trying to devour me. Well, he didnt get me, but i got him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's what we call a "Bad onos" my friend- it should have started and ended with "Onos stomps me- onos devours me" or maybe, "onos stomps me, onos gores me" or even "onos gores me and I die" not "Onos was an idiot" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The point was that the Onos has the big illusion that he can do what ever he wants with it without getting smacked down, but he did(get smacked down).
I just got done with a shorter game... on ns_mineshaft we had 11 Onos at winning point... still over the hour long mark... if they didn't push out so early, marines would have been able to hold us off... we did several onos rushes before this, with lerks and gorges... the hive they had relocated to was sewer... they came back after we took them from taking two hives and their relocation to double failed which gave us the rest of the map...
their was nubs on the marine team, in drill there was at least more than half the team... I killed the 5 left after dieing as a fade a minute earlier.... they kept stopping our onos rushes... sure lerks helped... but not as much... onos should get a change... they dropped turrets and sieges in sewer and all the onos got caught up... we had some really skilled players too...
the only way we won is by them recycling the turrets 11 Onos + upgrades = 869 res.... the marines of a similar size team of 14 will own with half that ....
Edit: there needs to be a counter for marines holing up in a hive and being able to get enough res for a HA train... although I do like the long games... they are rare and much more interesting.... that definitely needs to be a type of game mode... long games with intense games but games that are long and drawn out....
Onoses are supposed to be the alien base breakers. That was half the point behind unlinking hives and evolutions; aliens had extreme difficulty defeating a hive lockdown because they weren't able to use their highest tech. Then Onoses could be evolved even at hive 1 so the idea was that aliens could break through a base like that if they had enough res, rather than just depending on hives.
So, what ever happened to that? Even Onoses aren't capable of breaking the marine base anymore, at least not while there are marines there. Turrets serve primarily as obstacles to allow the marines to unload on the Onoses without fear, and at that they're extremely effective. Onoses can take out structure farms easily, and in the right environments they stand a chance against marine groups(in others they have no chance at all), but no amount of Onoses can overcome a combination of the two even with the rest of their team backing them up.
Marines holed up in their base, whether it's marine spawn or a hive, with aliens owning the rest of the map should end very quickly in favor of the aliens, just like the opposite situation ends in favor of the marines. Aliens need their base breaker back.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
onos need an improvement agains LMGs and Shotties (Low Level Weapons). Maybe some kinda resistance against those low damage weapons, so bullets won´t get through their armor.
<!--QuoteBegin-Skyrage+Jun 9 2004, 01:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skyrage @ Jun 9 2004, 01:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know, reswise, a HA costs what? 65 Res with HA, HMG and welder? (correct me if I'm wrong) On top of that he has upgrades which stick with him all the time. Several kinds of upgrades even. Weapon damage, armor boost, MT, ect...on top of that it's a ranged unit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think HA is 20, HMG 15, welder 5.
Thats only 40 res.
1 HA < 1 ONOS 4HA=4ONOS 5+HA>5+onos
Which is balanced for 6vs6 as the marines have a com, but why can't NS be at least ATTEMPTED to be balanaced for differnet sized teams?
Make aliens get res linked to the number of players on a team, make gorges faster than marines and able to hold their own. That would help balance it for differnet sized teams. But the HA train of 9+ players cannot be killed. Stomp is just too map dependant. Stomp should be replaced with something less map dependant. A small ramp and its useless.
<!--QuoteBegin-Seph Kimara+Jun 10 2004, 12:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Seph Kimara @ Jun 10 2004, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marines see onos. Marines pull out knives. Marines run AT onos, slashing with reckless abandon.
Today's onos is but a big angry gorge. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Um, Onoses are weak and all but marines that knife them are just suiciding. You could give Onoses infinite HP and a 500 damage gore and rines would still do that.
Yeah, but Marines knifing Onoses cannot be helped much anymore. No longer are they the ominous beasts what tore apart any shread of Frontiersmen victory, they are now, simply, another evolution of the Kharra. An evolution that the Marines now know is not invincible and thus tend to not fear as much. Sure, a single Marine whipping out his knife to assault an Onos alone <i>can</i> be suicide, but when en entire squad reduces themselves to this tactic, it's downright unfair. Think about how an averagely abilitied Frontiersmen in light field armor, most likely not weighing over 180 pounds, could possibly push over 2 tons of muscle and bulk with a 3 inch blade of hyper-alloy.
I don't remember any of us complaining that knifing was too viable a strategy for damaging an Onos. Or at least, I wasn't. What <i>is</i> annoying is how the most expensive unit of the Kharra can have its view so easily disrupted by knifing, and seems to be one of the only units who truly suffers from being hit by the knife. Think of it as blocking; by all means it shouldn't exist, but since it does Marines will utilize it to its fullest potential. However, I feel this shouldn't be.
...Okay, maybe it's not the best example, but whatever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try it. Get as many rines as you want knifing at an onos, and the onos if it has any brains at all will win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, 6 x 30 LMG bullets + KNIF0Rz! == Dead onos, by knife <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Except for the part where the Onos stomp spams and runs away <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Get it through your HEADS. This is <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>NOT, i repeat NOT</span> NS 1.0 anymore. Onos are now HIT and run species, similiar to the fade, the onos must hit and run. Play the onos as a hit and run and you can damage and turn the tides of gaes easily. The one thing I think is the lamest thing the NS dev team can do is letting people Onos at hive 1. It's near usless. Make it hive 2 because at least then you have a chance of surviving ffs. Your "1 hive onos can possibly change tides of a game in a 2hive lockdown" dies from a single HMG and pistol.
EDIT: as you all can tell with my recent posts in PBF, you can tell i am quite dissapointed in the direction NS is heading.
Um, Diablus, we know that. That's why we're trying to get it changed. Not only are Onoses hit and run species but they have to be even more careful with their targets than Fades and it's just ridiculous. An alien that is hyped up to be the juggernaut of the alien team shouldn't be killed if they dare show their face for more than a couple of seconds.
You know why Hive 1 Onoses are useless? It's because Onoses are so weak that the only way they can possibly survive is keeping everyone stomped as long as they're in the room. If a single person with an HMG is safe from stomp then the Onos is in danger. I think we should ditch stomp and balance Onoses so that they're actually capable of receiving some damage rather than being forced to flee every time an HMG escapes from their stomp.
Maybe slightly off-topic to the post, and maybe it's been suggested before, but it IS an onos problem, so...
Skulks/Gorges (S/G) blocking an onos running away; that 1 to 2 seconds can really screw an onos over when he's trying to get away. Being that the S/G class is so small in size, why can't the onos run over them. In essence, the S/G would be running between the onos' legs.
indeed, i came up with an idea of pushback with lesser lifeforms (besides fades and other onos) AND light armored marines. Where if a onos runs into them and keeps going foward/backward then they get pushed along with him, it would go good with charge too.
i mean a 5 ton space cow charging at a small 200 pd human with some armor, i highly doubt the onos would be stopped in its tracks by the human....
Basically all in all wherever the onos goes, and stops, if the alien/ LA doesnt move or tries to push "against" the force of the onos, he/she will be forced to move at the same speed as the onos is in that direction. (all in all getting rid of blockage)
Comments
Where as HMG/HA trains are VERY common.. I've never seen an onos train. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You must have missed the 9 Onos rush on the g4b2s 28 person server. Map is ns_tanith, aliens have the entire map except for MS, Sat Comm hive...
9 Onos enter Sat Comm. three TFs, two phase gates, pretty much locked down, with HMGs covering it.... The 9 Onos promptly die and we lose because we now have 0 higher lifeforms and they got a full blown heavy train. Movement rush was out of the question... so that's 13-14 marines probably much less owned 9 Onos....
EDIT: I am not going to spam another post, but the game did go on for one hour and 50 minutes.....
the Onos needs to have some change done...
Skill shouldn't even MATTER in a situation like that. NINE ONOS. That's literally tens of thousands of points of damage the marines had to do to kill them all. Marine weapons are just overpowered at high levels, because no one has ever though it would be a good idea to de-buff them after all the buffs they got to counter the wacky hitbox problems in the 2.x days...
You know, reswise, a HA costs what? 65 Res with HA, HMG and welder? (correct me if I'm wrong)
On top of that he has upgrades which stick with him all the time. Several kinds of upgrades even. Weapon damage, armor boost, MT, ect...on top of that it's a ranged unit.
Take the Onos now. 100 res, upgrades which doesn't stick when he dies. Close range unit only. Even one single HA has the potential of being a serious threat to the Onos if he gets caught at a distance. 2 HA's with a res total of 130 (assuming I now got all the costs correctly) is a critital threat to an Onos. Unless he stomps like mad and devour, he won't stand a chance, and even with stomp + devour the chance of the onos being gunned down is extremely high. All both HE's have to do is to hold the firebutton down until the onos is dead.
The thing the onos was designed to do doesn't work at all. Mow through marines. One onos should IMO be worth about 2 HA's and be able to take them down with relative ease. The individual resource system of the khaara and the high cost of evolving to an onos, should be worth it's cost.
Rines has no problems spitting out HA's and HMG's...they have a collective resourcepool. Even with only a handful of restowers going, they can spit out quite a bit of equipment. As for the khaara...once you die, you better have enough res to evolve again or it will all be over unless you get enough time to gain the res you need.
Oh btw, if those 9 onos didn't have backup (from say...I dunno...LERKS with umbra) then they deserved to die. No teamwork=good game. A few fades should've blinked around like mad, wasting the marines' bullets, while the lerks umbraed the palce up right before the 9 Onos charged in for the assault.
Or, you can go play on smaller servers. I like 8 on 8. Marine power grows exponentially with each additional player. On small games, you see that alien high tech beats marine high tech easily. Try it on a 2v2 game (the other extreme) and you'll see what I mean.
Should go back to 100 though with the beefing up to one onos = 2 or 2 and a half HA's...
BTW...IMO 9 onos should be able to wreck an entire map even without lerk support...with a few casualties of course...
First of all something needs to be done about the huge terrain disadvantages inherent to the 2.0+ Onos. That's probably the biggest reason the 9 onoses got raped in sat comm. Stomp doesn't go up hills, much less ledges. There are a whole bunch of places in each map where marines can stand to be impervious to stomp, many of which are critical areas of the map like hives or siege spots. If we're going to keep the stun-spam Onos then Stomp has to be changed to work regardless of altitude, or at least a good 20 feet into the air(shorter for JPs if that's possible). The Onos is sending a huge shockwave into the ground, why can't it travel in diagonal lines or up a small ledge?
The counter to stomp should be spreading out so as not to be hit all at once. Marines shouldn't be completely immune to it.
That's what we call a "Bad onos" my friend- it should have started and ended with "Onos stomps me- onos devours me" or maybe, "onos stomps me, onos gores me" or even "onos gores me and I die" not "Onos was an idiot" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point was that the Onos has the big illusion that he can do what ever he wants with it without getting smacked down, but he did(get smacked down).
their was nubs on the marine team, in drill there was at least more than half the team... I killed the 5 left after dieing as a fade a minute earlier.... they kept stopping our onos rushes... sure lerks helped... but not as much... onos should get a change... they dropped turrets and sieges in sewer and all the onos got caught up... we had some really skilled players too...
the only way we won is by them recycling the turrets
11 Onos + upgrades = 869 res.... the marines of a similar size team of 14 will own with half that ....
Edit: there needs to be a counter for marines holing up in a hive and being able to get enough res for a HA train... although I do like the long games... they are rare and much more interesting.... that definitely needs to be a type of game mode... long games with intense games but games that are long and drawn out....
So, what ever happened to that? Even Onoses aren't capable of breaking the marine base anymore, at least not while there are marines there. Turrets serve primarily as obstacles to allow the marines to unload on the Onoses without fear, and at that they're extremely effective. Onoses can take out structure farms easily, and in the right environments they stand a chance against marine groups(in others they have no chance at all), but no amount of Onoses can overcome a combination of the two even with the rest of their team backing them up.
Marines holed up in their base, whether it's marine spawn or a hive, with aliens owning the rest of the map should end very quickly in favor of the aliens, just like the opposite situation ends in favor of the marines. Aliens need their base breaker back.
You know, reswise, a HA costs what? 65 Res with HA, HMG and welder? (correct me if I'm wrong)
On top of that he has upgrades which stick with him all the time. Several kinds of upgrades even. Weapon damage, armor boost, MT, ect...on top of that it's a ranged unit.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think HA is 20, HMG 15, welder 5.
Thats only 40 res.
1 HA < 1 ONOS
4HA=4ONOS
5+HA>5+onos
Which is balanced for 6vs6 as the marines have a com, but why can't NS be at least ATTEMPTED to be balanaced for differnet sized teams?
Make aliens get res linked to the number of players on a team, make gorges faster than marines and able to hold their own. That would help balance it for differnet sized teams. But the HA train of 9+ players cannot be killed. Stomp is just too map dependant. Stomp should be replaced with something less map dependant. A small ramp and its useless.
Today's onos is but a big angry gorge.
Today's onos is but a big angry gorge. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, Onoses are weak and all but marines that knife them are just suiciding. You could give Onoses infinite HP and a 500 damage gore and rines would still do that.
Try it. Get as many rines as you want knifing at an onos, and the onos if it has any brains at all will win.
...Okay, maybe it's not the best example, but whatever.
Okay, 6 x 30 LMG bullets + KNIF0Rz! == Dead onos, by knife <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(Humiliation ensued.)
EDIT: as you all can tell with my recent posts in PBF, you can tell i am quite dissapointed in the direction NS is heading.
You know why Hive 1 Onoses are useless? It's because Onoses are so weak that the only way they can possibly survive is keeping everyone stomped as long as they're in the room. If a single person with an HMG is safe from stomp then the Onos is in danger. I think we should ditch stomp and balance Onoses so that they're actually capable of receiving some damage rather than being forced to flee every time an HMG escapes from their stomp.
Skulks/Gorges (S/G) blocking an onos running away; that 1 to 2 seconds can really screw an onos over when he's trying to get away. Being that the S/G class is so small in size, why can't the onos run over them. In essence, the S/G would be running between the onos' legs.
Just an idea.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i mean a 5 ton space cow charging at a small 200 pd human with some armor, i highly doubt the onos would be stopped in its tracks by the human....
Basically all in all wherever the onos goes, and stops, if the alien/ LA doesnt move or tries to push "against" the force of the onos, he/she will be forced to move at the same speed as the onos is in that direction. (all in all getting rid of blockage)