Instead of bitching about it, why don't you go ahead and make a tutorial map, complete with scripted events and everything?
Ever consider Flayra wants a tutorial, but doesn't have the time to make one himself?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Bitching</b> is when you can do something about it but instead just whine and complain about why it's not done.
<b>Suggesting</b> is when you cannot do something about it but try to bring certain ideas and facts to light that might get something done.
Now if I had the:
1) Programming Skills 2) Mapping Skills 3) Time to produce a Tutorial Map
and I created a thread that said something like,
"Flayra is so dumb. He should make a tutorial map. I could do it no problem. I mean come on what is he thinking. NS is going to die without a tutorial. It is such a simple and easy thing do make. This is stupid."
Now then Forlorn your reply would be totally appropriate. However I don't believe my thread is whining or complaining... if any of the moderators think so then close this thread. I apologize for wasting everyones time and this will be soon forgotten I'm sure.
As for Flayra wanting a tutorial but not having the time for it. I find that whole argument suspect. Given the information I've heard through the grapevine I can see that he may not have time for it <i>now</i> and I understand. But the fact that between NS 1.0 and NS 3.0a there <i>were</i> on and off attempts at making an in-game tutorial (yes I have been here that long and I distinctly remember SCREENSHOTS of an in-game tutorial in the works) makes me thing that the idea was scraped for some reason.
I don't think it should have been scraped. If anything I think the idea should be put near the top of the "things-to-do" list. You know, above grens, electrify, new lerk flight model, NS: Combat. If Flay wanted to work on gameplay stuff he could have assigned some knowledgable people to do it. The fact that those things were done before a much needed and MUCH SUGGESTED (not only be me) tutorial I think I have the right to make the suggestion again.
As I have stated in my suggestion it doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to work.
Flay and NS Devs, I don't mean to be a jerk, and I don't mean to whine or complain if you percieve this as that. I want NS to be just as cool and teamplay as you and I really think an in-game tutorial will help... or I wouldn't have posted it.
Tell me I'm wrong, I always own up to my mistakes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To quote from the title:
Look, a tutorial has been suggested before the game was even released. What is the point about complaining of something that everyone knows needs to be done?
Anyhow, at least <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72868&view=findpost&p=1104783' target='_blank'>someone</a> is doing something about this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Look, Forlorn, if you dont like the topic, <b>then dont post in it.</b> What are you doing besides wrecking the disscussion at hand and discourgaing people from posting?
<!--QuoteBegin-Vinin+Jun 10 2004, 06:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vinin @ Jun 10 2004, 06:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To clear up any questions about the integrity of the Guides posistion: We are not in it for the icon. In fact, if we didn't have an icon, we would be perfectly happy with the fact that we help new players as much as possible in any capacity we can. Building an entire online database for new players along with training guides to go to random public servers and help out is what we volunteered for. NOT an icon. It has been stated during interviews that if all you care about is the icon, don't bother applying. We will be tracking guides as best as we can, and any abusive behavior results in removal. They know what we expect of them and we know they will follow through. That is why we had a multi-stage and lengthy interview process. With multiple guide leads also, rather than a single leader, I don't foresee todays Guide program falling through.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, in theory the Guide program is a good idea. I don't think in practice it actually works. So what, when you get a shiny symbol by your name your instantly going to be able to help more people? Perhaps I don't see the bridge of logic here. Why do you need to be in a program to help people? You say that you didn't sign up for the icon so why bother with one and an exclusive group in the first place, why push for it?
Now maybe you are thinking, well perhaps the new players will recognise the symbol and ask for help that way. Well then, what about everyone willing to help? Are you going to seriously let every single person into the guide program that wants to help new players out? In my view, anything short of that would be elitism. And as far as I can tell your clique has been filled.
I am not attacking you personaly, for all I know you only do want to help. I am just stating I think the method is horrible and wether you intend or not creates elitism.
<i>edit: By the way, I think the Dev Icons are a good idea. Simply because no one can impersonate them</i>
The truth is there is nothing stopping any one helping. I don't think any one would complain if you helped out a beginner with questions / problems - but in the same way, no one should expect you to.
The average player has no obligation to help any one out - they don't owe any beginners any thing, so why should they put themselves out to help them....
the Guides however, are people who have volunteered their time exclusively to help people out. how is that elitist?
These forums don't need mods or admins. They would work fine without them. Yes there would be a lot of flaming, moaning, whinging, and it would generally be rubbish (take the battle.net forums) - but people have volunteered their time (and a lot of it from the bit of talking i've been doing with a few of them over the last couple of weeks) to keep things in order, and to help. The guides is not all that different in that respect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So what, when you get a shiny symbol by your name your instantly going to be able to help more people? Perhaps I don't see the bridge of logic here. Why do you need to be in a program to help people? You say that you didn't sign up for the icon so why bother with one and an exclusive group in the first place, why push for it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a bridge of logic I don't understand here either - why is it when people offer their time to help out, they get accused of being elitist? When was the last time you called NemesisZero elitist? or Marik, or Mouse, or any of the other mods / admins. When was the last time you called Hodge, Fam, or the other IRC operators elitist?...
Maybe i'm being over-defensive. I don't know. The icon will be there just to point beginners in the right direction - the IRC / website will be easiy accessible, and seeing a guide on a server is think is there principally for reassurance for beginners... - there is no doubt that many beginners won't bother asking - too many just don't care, but for those that DO want to learn, I'm yet to see any downfalls for this
Guides do deserve special recognition, there is a big difference between helping out every so often and being <i>responsible</i>.
Not the best analogy I know but to me its the equivalent between someone who puts some change in a charity pot and the person who holds the charity pot out for you. Both are being charitable but unless you walk around actively seeking every charity pot going and giving away change every time the chances are you aren't putting in anywhere near as much as that person in the street asking for donations.
I am going to try and state my opinion in a crystal clear and non rebuttle approach.
If someone was going to help a new player then the icon and status would not cause him or her to help more people.
If you are using the icon to point new players in the right direction, unless you give one to every player willing, no wanting, to help new players you are excluding them and creating an exclusive group or clique.
Creating an exclusive group or clique and giving them "special recognition" is considered, by me, elitism.
Now, if your intent was to create a special crack squad of helpers in terminator armor with a +7 sword of new player helping then
Yes, it would still be elitism.
In closing, I think you are all taking my message wrong, I am not calling any one person Elitist, I am calling the system Elitist. I am not saying anyone is a bad person because they want to help people. Stop being defensive.
Bob, I understand that a new player should feel like they can approach anyone instead of just searching for servers with guide icons but:
a) It will mean the servers without guides will have less new players, something that must be good for those just looking for a good game.
b) There is nothing wrong with elitism, they are being rewarded for giving up their time, plenty of people help but they won't dedicate as large a proportion of their time to it.
c) if you are worried that those people who do help aren't going to get recognition then maybe they should join the guides too, its the equivalent of having a -TPF- sign at the end of your name in TFC a few years ago. The difference is anyone can do that and then act like idiots, at least these people will be tested out.
Why is Elitism so bad in this situation anyway? We have clanners don't we? We have moderators, developers and play testers, constellation signs etc. Do they all cause trouble? Why is one more group going to be so bad?
So then that is where our oppinions differ then. I find Elitism in my lowly opinion to be a thorn in the side of the community.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->c) if you are worried that those people who do help aren't going to get recognition then maybe they should join the guides too,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope its different then the original guides then, otherwise that would be impossible.
What I don't understand at all is how it is being considered elitism. Helping out the community is in no way excluding anyone. Everyone is welcome to help newbies, and that is what we do now even without special recognition. We go into servers and just answer questions for anyone that asks them. Recognition merely helps in providing web server space and also for Flayra to help guide us in what we need to do to help out him.
I don't understand this "new shiny icon" business. So just because I now have an icon, I am now more inclined to help? That's on the completely opposite spectrum of what our program is based on.
We welcome anyone that is bright, enthusiastic, and mature to help out in any way they can by either joining the program itself or just doing your own part on the servers you frequent. Guides we select are those who are outstanding leaders in the community who the newbies can really look up to. If elitism is picking those that fit the job best, I shall call up big business now and tell them to stop their ways. It may be elitism to you, but to the rest of us, we are just trying to lend a helping hand without being harrassed.
<b>rob6264</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My personal recommendation to you, Fantasmo, if you're really serious about what you want: Do some research on what would be required (not HOW, but exactly what), spend some time figuring up a plan of action,...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you know this is not the beginning of my research?
By posting this thread I have discovered these things about the tutorial map:
- the map was done a while ago - Merkaba (maker of Hera) was the mapper - it still needs to be scripted for it to work - Flay can code it - the same code needed to make the tutorial possible will also enable mappers to put buildings on to maps real-time or pre-placed
*<i>most of this information is credited to Fieari. No one has claimed and of that information is untrue so I'll consider it reliable until things change</i>
From what I know now I would like to find out*;
- Can anyone else script it? - Is it very difficult? - How much time would it take?
*<i>we have to establish if there are any show stoppers. What if the code necessary to make the tutorial map work is integral to the code of NS (proprietary). And if Flay and those who give permission to are the only ones who can impliment it then it would be up to him to make it happen.</i>
Regarding the NS Guides I know;
- it is back! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
From what I know now I would like to find out*;
- who is the head guy - what kind of support he is recieveing - what has he done so far
*<i>I'm not here to steal anyone's show, but I think I might be able to can help in one-way or another.</i>
<b>rob6264</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As much as I hate to admit it, no one's going to bite for an idea unless the owner of said idea is willing to put for most, if not all, the effort.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll quote one of my favorite Metallica songs, "Sad but true."
I can only promise to put forth what effort I can spare to help NS improve. The idea is to put forth what I can and inspire others to put forth what they can. Maybe the momentum will cause people to make more of an effort or maybe find more people willing to put forth a little effort themselves. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll be honest. Before I ever get serious (<i>invest much effort and time</i>) about something I like to gather whatever information I can and try to determine a few things:
1) "can it be done?" or "can I do it?" 2) "has it been done?" or "will it be done?" 3) "who has done it?" or "who is doing it?" 4) "what has been done?" or "what will be done?" 5) "what can I do?"
You've got to get a good map of the terrain before you launch an attack. I can tell you I do not have enough information to make that next step, but I have only begun to browse for my answers.
<b>rob6264</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My personal recommendation to the rest of you is be open minded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My personal recommendation is to listen to rob6264.
Look, a tutorial has been suggested before the game was even released. What is the point about complaining of something that everyone knows needs to be done?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because this is the only thread in the General Forums trying to find out why something that "...has been suggested before the game was even released..." and "...that everyone knows needs to be done..." hasn't been done.
As for complaining, that's your opinion that I have no desire to change.
<b>Ha.ze</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look, Forlorn, if you dont like the topic, then dont post in it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might want to consider his advice Forlorn.
<b>Ha.ze</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What are you doing besides wrecking the disscussion at hand and discourgaing people from posting?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's probably the point. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>Forlorn</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyhow, at least someone is doing something about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the link! I'll take a look at this for sure!
<b>Bob the Alien</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think in practice it actually works. So what, when you get a shiny symbol by your name your instantly going to be able to help more people? Perhaps I don't see the bridge of logic here. Why do you need to be in a program to help people? You say that you didn't sign up for the icon so why bother with one and an exclusive group in the first place, why push for it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>rob6264</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The icon's purpose is to help new players find people who they know are willing to help. Not to distinguish someone as special.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you rob that's exactly right.
<b>Bob the Alien</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are using the icon to point new players in the right direction, unless you give one to every player willing, no wanting, to help new players you are excluding them...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Excluding or tending to exclude: <i>exclusive barriers.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS Guides are exclusively reserved for those who <b><i>want</i> to volunteer select hours of <i>their time</i>, sometimes assigned </b>(ie. <i>during major new version releases</i>)<b>helping new players with NS</b>. So yes, the Guides can be <i>defined</i> at exclusive.
<b>Bob the Alien</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...and creating an exclusive group or clique.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A small exclusive group of friends or associates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The size of the group will be determined by who is willing to be dedicated enough to fill the demands of teaching new players. It will also be determined by how many new players there are to teach.
So small or large is undetermined but if you call an <i>exclusive</i> group of associates a clique then the Guides could be defined as a clique.
<b>Bob the Alien</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Creating an exclusive group or clique and giving them "special recognition" is considered, by me, elitism.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Dictionary.com</b> <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>e?lit?ism or ??lit?ism</b> ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-) n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources. 2. 1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class. 2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have never been associated with the NS Guides but you say the program and its' member believe they "...deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources."
I don't disagree with you when you say the NS Guides are an exclusive group but I do think you alone have made the judgement that they are elitist. I disagree with that.
Vinin pretty much puts it like it is so I'll let him finish this off.
<b>Vinin</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We welcome anyone that is bright, enthusiastic, and mature to help out in any way they can by either joining the program itself or just doing your own part on the servers you frequent. Guides we select are those who are outstanding leaders in the community who the newbies can really look up to. If elitism is picking those that fit the job best, I shall call up big business now and tell them to stop their ways. It may be elitism to you, but to the rest of us, we are just trying to lend a helping hand without being harrassed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wanted to add:
I believe the NS Guides deserve special recognition. After all they are volunteering their time to making everyone's experience just a little bit better. The fact that they are NS Guides means they are <b>known</b> for helping make people's experience better. The Icon doesn't mean "I'm the best" it just means "I can help."
nice idea if u ask me. No such thing as an ingame manual. Won't work out too well. Only u u just put it up on the main menu and the whole thing opens in game, not outside like the old CS ingame manual, which took u to the manual in the CS folder. If u can manage it, which isnt that hard, then do it. If not, it probly wont help that much anyways, experiance is the only thing that really works, and ull always leave something out of the manual.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fantasmo+Jun 12 2004, 02:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Jun 12 2004, 02:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Bob the Alien</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are using the icon to point new players in the right direction, unless you give one to every player willing, no wanting, to help new players you are excluding them...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Excluding or tending to exclude: <i>exclusive barriers.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS Guides are exclusively reserved for those who <b><i>want</i> to volunteer select hours of <i>their time</i>, sometimes assigned </b>(ie. <i>during major new version releases</i>)<b>helping new players with NS</b>. So yes, the Guides can be <i>defined</i> at exclusive.
<b>Bob the Alien</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...and creating an exclusive group or clique.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A small exclusive group of friends or associates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The size of the group will be determined by who is willing to be dedicated enough to fill the demands of teaching new players. It will also be determined by how many new players there are to teach.
So small or large is undetermined but if you call an <i>exclusive</i> group of associates a clique then the Guides could be defined as a clique.
<b>Bob the Alien</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Creating an exclusive group or clique and giving them "special recognition" is considered, by me, elitism.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Dictionary.com</b> <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism</b> ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-) n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources. 2. 1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class. 2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have never been associated with the NS Guides but you say the program and its' member believe they "...deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources."
I don't disagree with you when you say the NS Guides are an exclusive group but I do think you alone have made the judgement that they are elitist. I disagree with that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now I have 3 people trying to discuss this issue with me from very different perspectives allready.
To CMEast, I believe that I have allready adressed you but to clearify. I do not think eltisim is good, if you do thats fine. There is no longer a point to discussing things when they become Preference.
To Rob, If it is to let new players know who to ask for help why not just use a Tag? Why create an elite group that does not accept every qualified member?
And lastly to Fantasmo, You know when someone brings the dictionary into an argument they are grasping at straws. If you must bring in definitions and try to debate me on that instead of the soul of the matter then fine. It doesn't do anything for you.
Yes, being an exclusive group is not Elitism. However, not letting qualified players into that group because either you do not know them or have set a low cap is. A few other things, which I believe to be eltisit, is the increased social standing and increased OFFICAL RIGHTS from the NS community.
In closing, I would like to know why these three viewpoints do not conflict and debate each other. Is it all just a means to an end to make yourself feel good about the NSGuide program, or simply I am that fun to poke at?
I would also like to say I believe the NSGuide program is a good idea, but not in its previous or soon to be current incarnation. The limited number of guide positions happens to be the biggest hurdle in my mind.
No one has answered me why they just cant add a tag to their name that will be recognised as a similar symbol. Why must we once again go down the exclusive path where special rights are granted to the few?
They don't get any special rights, they get a pretty picture.
I agree it will be elitism simply because people will look up to them more, they're opinions will have more weight etc. You can't help how people react to them.
What other special privileges will they enjoy that they don't deserve?
They won't exactly abuse their 'power' because technically they are working towards the day when they are no longer needed and everyone a)knows how to play a decent game and b) every new person is is instantly helped by everyone to get to that same state. They are selected for being good people, why shouldn't they have more say? They are putting their time in to this voluntarily, why shouldn't people respect them?
I agree that the idea of Elitism (see definition in the above post) is bad but in life these groups get formed naturally just because some people naturally stand out. If these cliques have a good influence on NS then whats wrong with them.
They do deserve favoured treatment by virtue of their perceived decency. They won't 'control, rule or dominate' because they are nice people. They won't have a sense of entitlement because they know they are basically just babysitting the new people, "its a dirty job..." etc.
If anyone can just put a tag in front of their name then just about anyone will, including those who don't deserve to and then give the group a bad name.
<b>Bob the Alien</b> [quote]You know when someone brings the dictionary into an argument they are grasping at straws. If you must bring in definitions and try to debate me on that instead of the soul of the matter then fine. It doesn't do anything for you.[/quote]
Not only am I not "grasping at straws" I have revealed the very core of our disagreement. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is what you said before I defined some of the keywords in your argument.
<b>Bob the Alien</b> [quote]Creating an exclusive group or clique and giving them "special recognition" is considered, by me, elitism.[/quote]
To me this statement means you have three criteria for meeting your definition of elitism:
1) A group with specific demands (exclusive) 2) Working together to achieve a goal (clique) 3) Granted with "Special Recognition"
Together these three things create elitism. I think it is inaccurate and I used the dictionary to help us come to an understand. I wanted you to understand that...
<b>Bob the Alien</b> [quote]Yes, being an exclusive group is not Elitism.[/quote]
See, we now understand each other on two points. We agree that your first two criteria is not elitism.
<b>Bob the Alien</b> [quote]However, not letting qualified players into that group because either you do not know them or have set a low cap is.[/quote]
So along with, "...giving them special recognition...," you add to your criteria for elitism:
4) A group that doesn't let new members in because;
a. The group doesn't know someone is qualified b. The group has enough volunteers to achieve its' goals
Now the definition of eltism doesn't say giving a small group special recognition is elitism. Limiting membership to those who the group knows is qualified is not elitism. Limiting membership to the amount of people required to do a job is not elitism.
Dictionary.com <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism</a> [QUOTE] e?lit?ism or ??lit?ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-) n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources. 2. 1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class. 2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class. [quote]
My understanding of the definition of elitism is it has nothing to do who can join the group, nothing to do with the size pf the group, nothing to do with the goals of the group, and nothing to do with whether they get special recognition. Elitism is when a certain group of people feel they deserve special <b>treatment</b> (<i>not recognition</i>) because <i>they <b>think</b> they are superior.</i>
And here is the point of our disagreement. Your definition of elitism does not match my definition of elitism. This makes me wonder:
So do you feel the whole point of giving out an ICON is to give special treatment to people (NS Guides) who feel they are superior? Or do you feel that giving out ICONs will make people feel they are superior and deserve special treatment?
If you think that the idea behind giving an ICON to the NS Guides is elitist because we are giving special treatment only to the volunteers who have been chosen to help new players learn NS, you are both wrong and right.
You are right regarding special treatment. I think special treatment (ie. an ICON, a website to organize server coverage, a IRC channel for group meetings, even official team status like playtesters) should be given to the volunteers who have been chosen to help those in need of help. You are wrong about it being elitist. I think they should get special treatment based on the belief they want to help and not on the belief they are superior.
<b>Bob the Alien</b> [quote]In closing, I would like to know why these three viewpoints do not conflict and debate each other. Is it all just a means to an end to make yourself feel good about the NSGuide program, or simply I am that fun to poke at?[/quote]
The issue of elitism is based on <i><b>perception</b> of superiority</i>. The three views you're being presented are not in conflict because they express reasons why the idea of NS Guides is not elitist. As members of the NS Guides, shanks and Vinin has explained (from knowledgable positions) who is qualified and how they try to filter people out who want the ICON to act superior.
For me this was a means to promote the idea of NS Guides and suggest official status for people willing to take on this very important role. As you have said yourself, the fundamental idea of NS Guides (having people out there to help new players) is a good idea, so I don't understand what you mean by making ourselves feel good about the Guide program... we all agree it <i>is</i> good. I think it is so good it should be an official program for NS.
As for poking fun at you I don't get it. I thought we were having a debate about whether NS Guides are elitist in nature. You think it is and have presented your views, we think it isn't and have presented our views. Just because there are more people debating that they believe it isn't elitist it doesn't mean anyone is poking fun at anyone. We are debating the issue and more people happen to disagree with you at this time.
<b>Bob the Alien</b> [quote]No one has answered me why they just cant add a tag to their name that will be recognised as a similar symbol. Why must we once again go down the exclusive path where special rights are granted to the few?[/quote]
There has been a few answers posted but I'll add a couple simple reasons.
With a Guide Program you can lay better coverage on servers which means fewer new players are "left behind." A tag system will be more random coverage based on how many people feel like helping, when, and where. Also with a tag system the quality of training will vary based on the knowledge of the person who feels like putting on a tag and helping. A Guide Program insures whoever has an ICON is a knowledgable person to go to for new players.
I think the only way for a tutorial to work well would be for there to be bots with very tightly controled paths programmed in so that the tutorial basically plays the same way everytime for both sides you play it on: almost like a playable demo. That would take a LOT of work. Currently the helptext in game is probably as good as we're going to get without totally overburdening the devs. Tutorials are usually something you find in professional releases (not that NS isn't of professional quality) because it takes so much time to polish it to that extent that you really need to have a large paid dev team to handle the extra work. Hopefully Flay's new company will have precisely that sort of time on whatever game they decide to make.
Noone said that we were capping the limit at any said point. If individuals show that they can be outstanding role models and guides, then we welcome them in with open arms. Everyone is allowed to interview with us, and to be honest we did not know over half of the guides that came into us to interview. We gleaned everything we wanted to know from their interviews, in-game behavior, and forum presence.
- who is the head guy - what kind of support he is recieveing - what has he done so far
There is no single "head guy". The idea first started off in two parts with MajorChrome and I wanting to bring back the player-guides of old, and luckee and Saj creating a much much much better manual and tutorials. We then combined the two groups to form a new ns guides that is much bigger and more involved than the ones of old. Our website will be up eventually at <a href='http://guides.natural-selection.org' target='_blank'>http://guides.natural-selection.org</a> .
The support we are getting is webspace from Flayra and advice/guidance from him also. He will give us some points he feels need to be stressed which will be added to ours.
What we have done so far is selecting guides. There is still ongoing work onto the manual/site to make it quality enough for people not to burn their retinas while viewing it. The manual is going to include detailed descriptions, map break-downs, bunnyhop guides, demo play throughs, and much much more.
<b><u>Hltv-based Tuorial Hosted By Ns Guides</u> Learn NS from the best and brightest!</b> <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=73090' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=73090</a>
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
A slight case of thread necromancy?
Anyway, Meat_Popsicle (with the help of others) is already doing a marine training map. Check it out, it seems to be in good progress:
Skulk cloak walks, gets shot, asks nicely how he saw him, gets retorts in flames and insults, quits the game and doesn't come back.
With a helper in the game, he could just ask the helper and the helper could politely answer. "You see, cloaking doesn't make you invisible, it just makes you hard to see." "(More tips on how to use cloak effectively, along with what marines can do to stop cloak and other tactics.)"
I like to help people in game, but I don't know whether I have the patience to be a Guide. It sounds like a great idea, but I don't know if I could keep it up 24/7 - everyone needs some time of their own. Well I do. For NS that is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another thing I find hella-wicked annoying is when nobody jumps into the COMM chair for the first 30-45 seconds and then a new commander announces he is new and haven't COMM'd much but since nobody is COMMing he will give it a try.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^Quoted from earlier in the thread. This annoys me so much - I'm not really a noob at comming, but I'm just slow and I find it hard to get to grips with. A couple of days ago that EXACT situation happened, and I went ahead and jumped in the console. I thought I did pretty well, though I knew I couldnt win it. Then, because I wasn't dropping the weapons and heavy armour quick enough (...need to learn those quick keys or whatever...) they started to vote me out, and the guys with voice comm shouted at me.
For really new players I can see how this would be quite traumatic even, and certainly would not encourage them to hop in the chair next time.
If stuff like this (guides, tutorial maps) were OFFICIAL and, as Fantasmo said, ADVERTISED, then things would be a lot smoother and the community would expand.
I can't say anything official and it's all in the works right now but a hazard course like map *is* being worked on by myself and a few others. Give it time.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ha.ze+Jun 9 2004, 07:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ha.ze @ Jun 9 2004, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Err... thanks? I mean.. wouldnt you sign up?
EDIT:: In fact, why wouldnt ANYONE sign up? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It is defunct and over its prime
Comments
Instead of bitching about it, why don't you go ahead and make a tutorial map, complete with scripted events and everything?
Ever consider Flayra wants a tutorial, but doesn't have the time to make one himself?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Bitching</b> is when you can do something about it but instead just whine and complain about why it's not done.
<b>Suggesting</b> is when you cannot do something about it but try to bring certain ideas and facts to light that might get something done.
Now if I had the:
1) Programming Skills
2) Mapping Skills
3) Time to produce a Tutorial Map
and I created a thread that said something like,
"Flayra is so dumb. He should make a tutorial map. I could do it no problem. I mean come on what is he thinking. NS is going to die without a tutorial. It is such a simple and easy thing do make. This is stupid."
Now then Forlorn your reply would be totally appropriate. However I don't believe my thread is whining or complaining... if any of the moderators think so then close this thread. I apologize for wasting everyones time and this will be soon forgotten I'm sure.
As for Flayra wanting a tutorial but not having the time for it. I find that whole argument suspect. Given the information I've heard through the grapevine I can see that he may not have time for it <i>now</i> and I understand. But the fact that between NS 1.0 and NS 3.0a there <i>were</i> on and off attempts at making an in-game tutorial (yes I have been here that long and I distinctly remember SCREENSHOTS of an in-game tutorial in the works) makes me thing that the idea was scraped for some reason.
I don't think it should have been scraped. If anything I think the idea should be put near the top of the "things-to-do" list. You know, above grens, electrify, new lerk flight model, NS: Combat. If Flay wanted to work on gameplay stuff he could have assigned some knowledgable people to do it. The fact that those things were done before a much needed and MUCH SUGGESTED (not only be me) tutorial I think I have the right to make the suggestion again.
As I have stated in my suggestion it doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to work.
Flay and NS Devs, I don't mean to be a jerk, and I don't mean to whine or complain if you percieve this as that. I want NS to be just as cool and teamplay as you and I really think an in-game tutorial will help... or I wouldn't have posted it.
Tell me I'm wrong, I always own up to my mistakes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To quote from the title:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Replying to Fortheloveofgodandallthingholy...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not bitching?
Man, this whole topic is like a polite rant.
Look, a tutorial has been suggested before the game was even released. What is the point about complaining of something that everyone knows needs to be done?
Anyhow, at least <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72868&view=findpost&p=1104783' target='_blank'>someone</a> is doing something about this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, Forlorn, if you dont like the topic, <b>then dont post in it.</b> What are you doing besides wrecking the disscussion at hand and discourgaing people from posting?
Yes, in theory the Guide program is a good idea. I don't think in practice it actually works. So what, when you get a shiny symbol by your name your instantly going to be able to help more people? Perhaps I don't see the bridge of logic here. Why do you need to be in a program to help people? You say that you didn't sign up for the icon so why bother with one and an exclusive group in the first place, why push for it?
Now maybe you are thinking, well perhaps the new players will recognise the symbol and ask for help that way. Well then, what about everyone willing to help? Are you going to seriously let every single person into the guide program that wants to help new players out? In my view, anything short of that would be elitism. And as far as I can tell your clique has been filled.
I am not attacking you personaly, for all I know you only do want to help. I am just stating I think the method is horrible and wether you intend or not creates elitism.
<i>edit:
By the way, I think the Dev Icons are a good idea. Simply because no one can impersonate them</i>
The average player has no obligation to help any one out - they don't owe any beginners any thing, so why should they put themselves out to help them....
the Guides however, are people who have volunteered their time exclusively to help people out. how is that elitist?
These forums don't need mods or admins. They would work fine without them. Yes there would be a lot of flaming, moaning, whinging, and it would generally be rubbish (take the battle.net forums) - but people have volunteered their time (and a lot of it from the bit of talking i've been doing with a few of them over the last couple of weeks) to keep things in order, and to help. The guides is not all that different in that respect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So what, when you get a shiny symbol by your name your instantly going to be able to help more people? Perhaps I don't see the bridge of logic here. Why do you need to be in a program to help people? You say that you didn't sign up for the icon so why bother with one and an exclusive group in the first place, why push for it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a bridge of logic I don't understand here either - why is it when people offer their time to help out, they get accused of being elitist? When was the last time you called NemesisZero elitist? or Marik, or Mouse, or any of the other mods / admins. When was the last time you called Hodge, Fam, or the other IRC operators elitist?...
Maybe i'm being over-defensive. I don't know. The icon will be there just to point beginners in the right direction - the IRC / website will be easiy accessible, and seeing a guide on a server is think is there principally for reassurance for beginners... - there is no doubt that many beginners won't bother asking - too many just don't care, but for those that DO want to learn, I'm yet to see any downfalls for this
Not the best analogy I know but to me its the equivalent between someone who puts some change in a charity pot and the person who holds the charity pot out for you. Both are being charitable but unless you walk around actively seeking every charity pot going and giving away change every time the chances are you aren't putting in anywhere near as much as that person in the street asking for donations.
If someone was going to help a new player then the icon and status would not cause him or her to help more people.
If you are using the icon to point new players in the right direction, unless you give one to every player willing, no wanting, to help new players you are excluding them and creating an exclusive group or clique.
Creating an exclusive group or clique and giving them "special recognition" is considered, by me, elitism.
Now, if your intent was to create a special crack squad of helpers in terminator armor with a +7 sword of new player helping then
Yes, it would still be elitism.
In closing, I think you are all taking my message wrong, I am not calling any one person Elitist, I am calling the system Elitist. I am not saying anyone is a bad person because they want to help people. Stop being defensive.
a) It will mean the servers without guides will have less new players, something that must be good for those just looking for a good game.
b) There is nothing wrong with elitism, they are being rewarded for giving up their time, plenty of people help but they won't dedicate as large a proportion of their time to it.
c) if you are worried that those people who do help aren't going to get recognition then maybe they should join the guides too, its the equivalent of having a -TPF- sign at the end of your name in TFC a few years ago. The difference is anyone can do that and then act like idiots, at least these people will be tested out.
Why is Elitism so bad in this situation anyway? We have clanners don't we? We have moderators, developers and play testers, constellation signs etc. Do they all cause trouble? Why is one more group going to be so bad?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->c) if you are worried that those people who do help aren't going to get recognition then maybe they should join the guides too,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope its different then the original guides then, otherwise that would be impossible.
I don't understand this "new shiny icon" business. So just because I now have an icon, I am now more inclined to help? That's on the completely opposite spectrum of what our program is based on.
We welcome anyone that is bright, enthusiastic, and mature to help out in any way they can by either joining the program itself or just doing your own part on the servers you frequent. Guides we select are those who are outstanding leaders in the community who the newbies can really look up to. If elitism is picking those that fit the job best, I shall call up big business now and tell them to stop their ways. It may be elitism to you, but to the rest of us, we are just trying to lend a helping hand without being harrassed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My personal recommendation to you, Fantasmo, if you're really serious about what you want: Do some research on what would be required (not HOW, but exactly what), spend some time figuring up a plan of action,...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you know this is not the beginning of my research?
By posting this thread I have discovered these things about the tutorial map:
- the map was done a while ago
- Merkaba (maker of Hera) was the mapper
- it still needs to be scripted for it to work
- Flay can code it
- the same code needed to make the tutorial possible will also enable mappers to put buildings on to maps real-time or pre-placed
*<i>most of this information is credited to Fieari. No one has claimed and of that information is untrue so I'll consider it reliable until things change</i>
From what I know now I would like to find out*;
- Can anyone else script it?
- Is it very difficult?
- How much time would it take?
*<i>we have to establish if there are any show stoppers. What if the code necessary to make the tutorial map work is integral to the code of NS (proprietary). And if Flay and those who give permission to are the only ones who can impliment it then it would be up to him to make it happen.</i>
Regarding the NS Guides I know;
- it is back! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
From what I know now I would like to find out*;
- who is the head guy
- what kind of support he is recieveing
- what has he done so far
*<i>I'm not here to steal anyone's show, but I think I might be able to can help in one-way or another.</i>
<b>rob6264</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As much as I hate to admit it, no one's going to bite for an idea unless the owner of said idea is willing to put for most, if not all, the effort.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll quote one of my favorite Metallica songs, "Sad but true."
I can only promise to put forth what effort I can spare to help NS improve. The idea is to put forth what I can and inspire others to put forth what they can. Maybe the momentum will cause people to make more of an effort or maybe find more people willing to put forth a little effort themselves. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll be honest. Before I ever get serious (<i>invest much effort and time</i>) about something I like to gather whatever information I can and try to determine a few things:
1) "can it be done?" or "can I do it?"
2) "has it been done?" or "will it be done?"
3) "who has done it?" or "who is doing it?"
4) "what has been done?" or "what will be done?"
5) "what can I do?"
You've got to get a good map of the terrain before you launch an attack. I can tell you I do not have enough information to make that next step, but I have only begun to browse for my answers.
<b>rob6264</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My personal recommendation to the rest of you is be open minded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My personal recommendation is to listen to rob6264.
<b>Forlorn</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's not bitching?
Man, this whole topic is like a polite rant.
Look, a tutorial has been suggested before the game was even released. What is the point about complaining of something that everyone knows needs to be done?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because this is the only thread in the General Forums trying to find out why something that "...has been suggested before the game was even released..." and "...that everyone knows needs to be done..." hasn't been done.
As for complaining, that's your opinion that I have no desire to change.
<b>Ha.ze</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Look, Forlorn, if you dont like the topic, then dont post in it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might want to consider his advice Forlorn.
<b>Ha.ze</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What are you doing besides wrecking the disscussion at hand and discourgaing people from posting?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's probably the point. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>Forlorn</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyhow, at least someone is doing something about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the link! I'll take a look at this for sure!
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think in practice it actually works. So what, when you get a shiny symbol by your name your instantly going to be able to help more people? Perhaps I don't see the bridge of logic here. Why do you need to be in a program to help people? You say that you didn't sign up for the icon so why bother with one and an exclusive group in the first place, why push for it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>rob6264</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The icon's purpose is to help new players find people who they know are willing to help. Not to distinguish someone as special.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you rob that's exactly right.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are using the icon to point new players in the right direction, unless you give one to every player willing, no wanting, to help new players you are excluding them...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right about a few things;
<b>Dictionary.com</b>
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exclusive' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exclusive</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
ex?clu?sive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-sklsv)
adj.
1. Excluding or tending to exclude: <i>exclusive barriers.</i>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS Guides are exclusively reserved for those who <b><i>want</i> to volunteer select hours of <i>their time</i>, sometimes assigned </b>(ie. <i>during major new version releases</i>)<b>helping new players with NS</b>. So yes, the Guides can be <i>defined</i> at exclusive.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...and creating an exclusive group or clique.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Dictionary.com</b>
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=clique' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=clique</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
clique ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klk, klk)
n.
A small exclusive group of friends or associates.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The size of the group will be determined by who is willing to be dedicated enough to fill the demands of teaching new players. It will also be determined by how many new players there are to teach.
So small or large is undetermined but if you call an <i>exclusive</i> group of associates a clique then the Guides could be defined as a clique.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Creating an exclusive group or clique and giving them "special recognition" is considered, by me, elitism.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Dictionary.com</b>
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>e?lit?ism or ??lit?ism</b> ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have never been associated with the NS Guides but you say the program and its' member believe they "...deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources."
I don't disagree with you when you say the NS Guides are an exclusive group but I do think you alone have made the judgement that they are elitist. I disagree with that.
Vinin pretty much puts it like it is so I'll let him finish this off.
<b>Vinin</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
We welcome anyone that is bright, enthusiastic, and mature to help out in any way they can by either joining the program itself or just doing your own part on the servers you frequent. Guides we select are those who are outstanding leaders in the community who the newbies can really look up to. If elitism is picking those that fit the job best, I shall call up big business now and tell them to stop their ways. It may be elitism to you, but to the rest of us, we are just trying to lend a helping hand without being harrassed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wanted to add:
I believe the NS Guides deserve special recognition. After all they are volunteering their time to making everyone's experience just a little bit better. The fact that they are NS Guides means they are <b>known</b> for helping make people's experience better. The Icon doesn't mean "I'm the best" it just means "I can help."
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/</a>
nice idea if u ask me. No such thing as an ingame manual. Won't work out too well. Only u u just put it up on the main menu and the whole thing opens in game, not outside like the old CS ingame manual, which took u to the manual in the CS folder. If u can manage it, which isnt that hard, then do it. If not, it probly wont help that much anyways, experiance is the only thing that really works, and ull always leave something out of the manual.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are using the icon to point new players in the right direction, unless you give one to every player willing, no wanting, to help new players you are excluding them...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right about a few things;
<b>Dictionary.com</b>
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exclusive' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exclusive</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
ex·clu·sive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-sklsv)
adj.
1. Excluding or tending to exclude: <i>exclusive barriers.</i>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS Guides are exclusively reserved for those who <b><i>want</i> to volunteer select hours of <i>their time</i>, sometimes assigned </b>(ie. <i>during major new version releases</i>)<b>helping new players with NS</b>. So yes, the Guides can be <i>defined</i> at exclusive.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...and creating an exclusive group or clique.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Dictionary.com</b>
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=clique' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=clique</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
clique ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klk, klk)
n.
A small exclusive group of friends or associates.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The size of the group will be determined by who is willing to be dedicated enough to fill the demands of teaching new players. It will also be determined by how many new players there are to teach.
So small or large is undetermined but if you call an <i>exclusive</i> group of associates a clique then the Guides could be defined as a clique.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Creating an exclusive group or clique and giving them "special recognition" is considered, by me, elitism.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Dictionary.com</b>
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism</b> ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have never been associated with the NS Guides but you say the program and its' member believe they "...deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources."
I don't disagree with you when you say the NS Guides are an exclusive group but I do think you alone have made the judgement that they are elitist. I disagree with that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now I have 3 people trying to discuss this issue with me from very different perspectives allready.
To CMEast,
I believe that I have allready adressed you but to clearify. I do not think eltisim is good, if you do thats fine. There is no longer a point to discussing things when they become Preference.
To Rob,
If it is to let new players know who to ask for help why not just use a Tag? Why create an elite group that does not accept every qualified member?
And lastly to Fantasmo,
You know when someone brings the dictionary into an argument they are grasping at straws. If you must bring in definitions and try to debate me on that instead of the soul of the matter then fine. It doesn't do anything for you.
Yes, being an exclusive group is not Elitism. However, not letting qualified players into that group because either you do not know them or have set a low cap is. A few other things, which I believe to be eltisit, is the increased social standing and increased OFFICAL RIGHTS from the NS community.
In closing, I would like to know why these three viewpoints do not conflict and debate each other. Is it all just a means to an end to make yourself feel good about the NSGuide program, or simply I am that fun to poke at?
I would also like to say I believe the NSGuide program is a good idea, but not in its previous or soon to be current incarnation. The limited number of guide positions happens to be the biggest hurdle in my mind.
No one has answered me why they just cant add a tag to their name that will be recognised as a similar symbol. Why must we once again go down the exclusive path where special rights are granted to the few?
I agree it will be elitism simply because people will look up to them more, they're opinions will have more weight etc. You can't help how people react to them.
What other special privileges will they enjoy that they don't deserve?
They won't exactly abuse their 'power' because technically they are working towards the day when they are no longer needed and everyone a)knows how to play a decent game and b) every new person is is instantly helped by everyone to get to that same state. They are selected for being good people, why shouldn't they have more say? They are putting their time in to this voluntarily, why shouldn't people respect them?
I agree that the idea of Elitism (see definition in the above post) is bad but in life these groups get formed naturally just because some people naturally stand out. If these cliques have a good influence on NS then whats wrong with them.
They do deserve favoured treatment by virtue of their perceived decency. They won't 'control, rule or dominate' because they are nice people. They won't have a sense of entitlement because they know they are basically just babysitting the new people, "its a dirty job..." etc.
If anyone can just put a tag in front of their name then just about anyone will, including those who don't deserve to and then give the group a bad name.
[quote]You know when someone brings the dictionary into an argument they are grasping at straws. If you must bring in definitions and try to debate me on that instead of the soul of the matter then fine. It doesn't do anything for you.[/quote]
Not only am I not "grasping at straws" I have revealed the very core of our disagreement. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is what you said before I defined some of the keywords in your argument.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
[quote]Creating an exclusive group or clique and giving them "special recognition" is considered, by me, elitism.[/quote]
To me this statement means you have three criteria for meeting your definition of elitism:
1) A group with specific demands (exclusive)
2) Working together to achieve a goal (clique)
3) Granted with "Special Recognition"
Together these three things create elitism. I think it is inaccurate and I used the dictionary to help us come to an understand. I wanted you to understand that...
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
[quote]Yes, being an exclusive group is not Elitism.[/quote]
See, we now understand each other on two points. We agree that your first two criteria is not elitism.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
[quote]However, not letting qualified players into that group because either you do not know them or have set a low cap is.[/quote]
So along with, "...giving them special recognition...," you add to your criteria for elitism:
4) A group that doesn't let new members in because;
a. The group doesn't know someone is qualified
b. The group has enough volunteers to achieve its' goals
Now the definition of eltism doesn't say giving a small group special recognition is elitism. Limiting membership to those who the group knows is qualified is not elitism. Limiting membership to the amount of people required to do a job is not elitism.
Dictionary.com
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitism</a>
[QUOTE]
e?lit?ism or ??lit?ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.
[quote]
My understanding of the definition of elitism is it has nothing to do who can join the group, nothing to do with the size pf the group, nothing to do with the goals of the group, and nothing to do with whether they get special recognition. Elitism is when a certain group of people feel they deserve special <b>treatment</b> (<i>not recognition</i>) because <i>they <b>think</b> they are superior.</i>
And here is the point of our disagreement. Your definition of elitism does not match my definition of elitism. This makes me wonder:
So do you feel the whole point of giving out an ICON is to give special treatment to people (NS Guides) who feel they are superior? Or do you feel that giving out ICONs will make people feel they are superior and deserve special treatment?
If you think that the idea behind giving an ICON to the NS Guides is elitist because we are giving special treatment only to the volunteers who have been chosen to help new players learn NS, you are both wrong and right.
You are right regarding special treatment. I think special treatment (ie. an ICON, a website to organize server coverage, a IRC channel for group meetings, even official team status like playtesters) should be given to the volunteers who have been chosen to help those in need of help. You are wrong about it being elitist. I think they should get special treatment based on the belief they want to help and not on the belief they are superior.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
[quote]In closing, I would like to know why these three viewpoints do not conflict and debate each other. Is it all just a means to an end to make yourself feel good about the NSGuide program, or simply I am that fun to poke at?[/quote]
The issue of elitism is based on <i><b>perception</b> of superiority</i>. The three views you're being presented are not in conflict because they express reasons why the idea of NS Guides is not elitist. As members of the NS Guides, shanks and Vinin has explained (from knowledgable positions) who is qualified and how they try to filter people out who want the ICON to act superior.
For me this was a means to promote the idea of NS Guides and suggest official status for people willing to take on this very important role. As you have said yourself, the fundamental idea of NS Guides (having people out there to help new players) is a good idea, so I don't understand what you mean by making ourselves feel good about the Guide program... we all agree it <i>is</i> good. I think it is so good it should be an official program for NS.
As for poking fun at you I don't get it. I thought we were having a debate about whether NS Guides are elitist in nature. You think it is and have presented your views, we think it isn't and have presented our views. Just because there are more people debating that they believe it isn't elitist it doesn't mean anyone is poking fun at anyone. We are debating the issue and more people happen to disagree with you at this time.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
[quote]No one has answered me why they just cant add a tag to their name that will be recognised as a similar symbol. Why must we once again go down the exclusive path where special rights are granted to the few?[/quote]
There has been a few answers posted but I'll add a couple simple reasons.
With a Guide Program you can lay better coverage on servers which means fewer new players are "left behind." A tag system will be more random coverage based on how many people feel like helping, when, and where. Also with a tag system the quality of training will vary based on the knowledge of the person who feels like putting on a tag and helping. A Guide Program insures whoever has an ICON is a knowledgable person to go to for new players.
Hmm... my [quote]'s aren't working.
Sorry for the mess guys,
'Tasmo
- who is the head guy
- what kind of support he is recieveing
- what has he done so far
There is no single "head guy". The idea first started off in two parts with MajorChrome and I wanting to bring back the player-guides of old, and luckee and Saj creating a much much much better manual and tutorials. We then combined the two groups to form a new ns guides that is much bigger and more involved than the ones of old. Our website will be up eventually at <a href='http://guides.natural-selection.org' target='_blank'>http://guides.natural-selection.org</a> .
The support we are getting is webspace from Flayra and advice/guidance from him also. He will give us some points he feels need to be stressed which will be added to ours.
What we have done so far is selecting guides. There is still ongoing work onto the manual/site to make it quality enough for people not to burn their retinas while viewing it. The manual is going to include detailed descriptions, map break-downs, bunnyhop guides, demo play throughs, and much much more.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Learn NS from the best and brightest!</b>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=73090' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=73090</a>
Whatcha think?
It'd be interesting to try to bring to life the NS universe
I know there are training servers in existence but I'm talking more, treating NS as if it were real, but only livable online
Anyway, Meat_Popsicle (with the help of others) is already doing a marine training map. Check it out, it seems to be in good progress:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76128' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=76128</a>
Too many times have I seen situations like:
Skulk cloak walks, gets shot, asks nicely how he saw him, gets retorts in flames and insults, quits the game and doesn't come back.
With a helper in the game, he could just ask the helper and the helper could politely answer. "You see, cloaking doesn't make you invisible, it just makes you hard to see." "(More tips on how to use cloak effectively, along with what marines can do to stop cloak and other tactics.)"
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another thing I find hella-wicked annoying is when nobody jumps into the COMM chair for the first 30-45 seconds and then a new commander announces he is new and haven't COMM'd much but since nobody is COMMing he will give it a try.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^Quoted from earlier in the thread. This annoys me so much - I'm not really a noob at comming, but I'm just slow and I find it hard to get to grips with. A couple of days ago that EXACT situation happened, and I went ahead and jumped in the console.
I thought I did pretty well, though I knew I couldnt win it. Then, because I wasn't dropping the weapons and heavy armour quick enough (...need to learn those quick keys or whatever...) they started to vote me out, and the guys with voice comm shouted at me.
For really new players I can see how this would be quite traumatic even, and certainly would not encourage them to hop in the chair next time.
If stuff like this (guides, tutorial maps) were OFFICIAL and, as Fantasmo said, ADVERTISED, then things would be a lot smoother and the community would expand.
EDIT:: In fact, why wouldnt ANYONE sign up? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is defunct and over its prime