Slippery Slope

GinkGink Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4742Members
<div class="IPBDescription">hives and alien abilities</div> Something people don't often mention when they discuss the marine/alien balance issue is the alien's slippery slope. Slippery slope is a situation in which your ability to attack and defend decreases as you begin to lose. Some degree of slippery slope is expected and necessary. The aliens' slippery slope is ridiculous.

The aliens require hives to gain power. Once they gain hives, they gain attacks, new evolved forms, and upgrades. Hives are everything. If the aliens lose one hive, they lose one attack per evolution, one evolution, and one upgrade slot. That's a devastating blow. Add in that aliens don't even start out at full power. They only gain effective assault at three hives. All the marines have to do to prevent the aliens from gaining full power is to camp a single hive location. The marines have no such slope. As long as the command post is secure, the marines are at peak effectiveness.

My suggestion, one which would not seriously affect balance other than the wicked slippery slope, is to map the maps slightly larger, with more possible hive locations. If marines camp a few hive locations, all is not lost to the aliens. If a hive is destroyed, the aliens will be severely impacted until they can find a vacant location and start again.

Comments

  • GreedoGreedo Bounty Hunter Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 37Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    NS was designed this way. If the aliens don't push hard early, attack, prevent or delay marine expansion, or spread out and take control of all the nodes on their side of the map, they'll have a hard time winning.

    For the most part, this complaint is, in general, amplified by the resource bug, which is a problem that will be a dressed shortly and will make the turret and camping problems much less severe.
  • GinkGink Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4742Members
    I know that it was designed with that in mind, but it makes losing irreversable. If the marines find a hive location and build sufficient defenses around it, they win. The aliens don't have the antistructure firepower--Onos and Xenocide--to remove the camp. When winning and losing is decided within the first few minutes of gameplay, end-game is no fun.
  • KotauKotau Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6903Members
    Actually, Gink, I'll beg to differ.

    Losing is never irreversable when playing the Kharaa. They might take longer to destroy buildings, but requiring 3 hives to win is a crutch you just have to get over.

    Allow me to digress into a small story.
    We were losing (on the aliens side) badly, we only had one hive and about 3 resource nodes. I got this crazy idea in my head and crept up into the marine's base, instructing my team to lead the squad of 5 marines on a goose chase, since we all had lv3 stealth. Meanwhile, as the marines chased my teammates around, I quickly evolved into a lerk and needle spined their portals to death, (hiding up on a rafter so the turrets couldnt get to me), as well as their commander when he came out.

    Hey, it was a win, and we had nothing backing it up. It's possible to win against some pretty crazy odds, you just have to use teamwork.

    That's TEAMWORK, in case anyone didnt hear it.

    Kotau.
  • chischis Join Date: 2002-08-18 Member: 1190Members
    How did you get Lvl3 stealth with 1 hive?
  • GinkGink Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4742Members
    Level 3 stealth = 3 hives, right? I've played almost 10 games in a row where we never got the third hive up, because the marines had a forward base there already. Maybe it's the resource bug, but meanwhile they were assaulting the rest of the hives, so that means their efforts weren't focused only on establishing a forward base at a hive location. So, we're stuck with Fades, while the marines build heavy armor, heavy machine guns, grenade launchers (I'd love to play in a friendly fire game). Losing a single hive location is a crippling blow right now. Watch that slope. It's slippery.
  • KotauKotau Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6903Members
    Nah, you dont need 3 hives to get full stealth, just 3 sensory nodes.

    You can only build one type of node (Defensive, Sensory, or Movement) per hive you control.


    So if you want cloaking right off the bat, build 3 sensory nodes.
    Not hives. You dont need 3 hives to win

    Kotau
  • VitalMindVitalMind Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2867Members
    just a question..could it be possible to make it so theres like 5 hive locations but u can only have 3 at a time..i mean u would have to play a guessinggame with the aliens if u were a marine but i think it could be interesting..unless with the resource fix this would just spread ppl to thin..but it would help on the larger games with like 20 ppl and so on..but u wouldnt be able to build another hive unless one was destroyed and ud have a slight time delay that would stop u from buildign it right away.
  • GinkGink Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4742Members
    That's what I'm talking about. A larger map with more possible hive locations. Spread the marines thin! Aliens are the virus, not marines. It would fix the problem with the marines camping a hive location.

    Also, you need three hives to get third level stealth. You must have all had stealth from before the marines took your third hive over.
  • KotauKotau Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6903Members
    Oooh... Larger maps....


    Sounds fun to me.
    With the server bug how it is, usually it ends up a 6v6 (or realistically, 7v5 or 8v4, seeing how no one will balance teams) without the server going kablooie, or the lag spiking to 4000 ms

    Wooh, a 16v16 level with 3+ hive sites.... wow. That would be.... massive and apocalyptic all at once. I like it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Kotau
  • SonGohanSonGohan Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2939Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Gink+Nov 5 2002, 01:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gink @ Nov 5 2002, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's what I'm talking about. A larger map with more possible hive locations. Spread the marines thin! Aliens are the virus, not marines. It would fix the problem with the marines camping a hive location.

    Also, you need three hives to get third level stealth. You must have all had stealth from before the marines took your third hive over.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I find building my favorite class... because my team -wins-

    You only need to build three sensory towers for the third level cloak... you don't need all three hives.
  • GreedoGreedo Bounty Hunter Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 37Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    If there were any more than 3 hive locations in a map, the marines would never win. Ever. Sorry, but once the resource bug is fixed, <i>then</i> you'll see some balance.

    And upgrade level corresponds <i>only</i> to how many chambers of that type you have, and not to how many hives you have. You can only build one type of chamber per hive, but that's another thing all together.
  • KotauKotau Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6903Members
    Greedo:

    Was that tweaked with in playtesting?
    I'm talking about the 3+ potential hive sites
  • GreedoGreedo Bounty Hunter Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 37Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    No, it wasn't, simply because not one of the maps could possibly have added another hive location without being too big to fit in the HL engine.

    But, if you think about it, the marines would have to secure 3 rooms on a 4 hive map, 4 on a 5 to keep aliens at 2 hives, since keeping aliens at 2 hives is pretty much the best strategy for marines. And that's without factoring in things like, while we were playtesting, aliens got the second hive up, pretty much usually when marines had secured the third hive room... impossibility.
  • BigwigBigwig Join Date: 2002-10-27 Member: 1646Members
    Slippery slope = when the marines get HA and HMGs, and the aliens only have 1 hive. It's practically impossible to win as aliens because:

    A. Skulks and gorges can't kill HA marines. They just can't.
    B. Skulks and gorges can't destroy marine buildings. The only viable way of destroying buildings as an alien is with Xenocide, bile bombs, or an onos. Note how these skills require THREE HIVES.
    C. The aliens can't defend themselves. The offense chambers might as well be shooting spitballs, because they don't DO ANYTHING.
    D. Grenade launchers and siege turrets.

    Basically, the aliens are in a rut, and there's no way in hell they have any chance of getting out. They could all rush the commander, but that just never happens in public matches.

    As of right now, the game is not balanced. I'm sorry.
  • KotauKotau Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6903Members
    Hmm, that is true...

    It's a fine line between one sides' advantage and the others'

    Glad to hear another voice of reason in the forums, though.
  • Mr_InfinityMr_Infinity Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6736Members
    wouldnt it make more sense for the aliens to be able to build like "Zerg" have a variety of sturctures rather than have their abilities limited by the nessecity of an extra hive(s)? <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->

    but then again ,i see how it could also tip balance way in favor of the aliens...
  • VektuzVektuz Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2396Members
    Actually I do think theres a point at which the aliens just cant win.

    Perhaps the game should just end when the aliens are down to 1 hive and the marines have the entire techtree... so as not to waste time...

    *** Or perhaps make it so that the fewer hives you have, the less the spawn delay is? to keep the aliens zerging! ****
  • UnCriticalUnCritical Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 73Members, Constellation
    Thats not true, on bast i was playing alien, we were down to our last hive after having 3 and still had all 3 upgrade towers stashed away from being builder.

    The Refinery hive was getting seriously attacked, i was a lerk up in the rafters spiking marines untill i figured we would never win this way.
    I then legged it to the underwater tunnel underneath the feedwater hive where i had build a selection of defence chambers to keep me alive underwater along with all my upgrade towers, i then kept on entering the feedwater hive, shooting turrets and retreating to get healed, eventually i took them all out and the phase gate that was there, i evolved to a gorge and waited under the water for enough RPS o get the hive back online.

    While waiting the refinary hive was destroyed, but the feedwater started to build and soon enough (thanks to ome sloppy marine play) the aliens were back in buisness and we even managed to get 2 hives untill the server was turned off <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->

    But, yeah, never give up.
  • GinkGink Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4742Members
    Maybe the resource thing is the only balance issue. I find that hard to believe, because all marines need to take out a hive is a grenade launcher or two. All the marines need to secure a hive location is four turrets. I don't think making the marines use eight turrets for two hive locations is too much to ask. Besides, it takes the aliens a tremendous amount of resources to build a hive and its defenses. In addition, they're completely vulnerable for the two minutes that the hive takes to build up.

    You still need three hives to get access to level three anything, because it takes three hives to build three sensory chambers, right?
  • XipeTotecXipeTotec Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2270Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Bigwig+Nov 5 2002, 01:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bigwig @ Nov 5 2002, 01:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Slippery slope = when the marines get HA and HMGs, and the aliens only have 1 hive. It's practically impossible to win as aliens because:

    A. Skulks and gorges can't kill HA marines. They just can't.
    B. Skulks and gorges can't destroy marine buildings. The only viable way of destroying buildings as an alien is with Xenocide, bile bombs, or an onos. Note how these skills require THREE HIVES.
    C. The aliens can't defend themselves. The offense chambers might as well be shooting spitballs, because they don't DO ANYTHING.
    D. Grenade launchers and siege turrets.

    Basically, the aliens are in a rut, and there's no way in hell they have any chance of getting out. They could all rush the commander, but that just never happens in public matches.

    As of right now, the game is not balanced. I'm sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thats like saying the game is unbalanced because it is impossible for the marines to win when the Kharaa have 3 hives and surround the marine base there is nothing the marines can do to win.
  • GinkGink Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4742Members
    And also, anecdotes of alien heroics plus marine stupidity do not make a sound argument for balance. I've been in situations where the marines have a crappy commander and the aliens have a couple of people that take the lead and guide everyone else.

    Maybe it's the resource bug. I'm looking forward to playing after the patch is out. It should at least make the game more exciting past the first five minutes of play.
  • GhostfaceKillahGhostfaceKillah Join Date: 2002-10-05 Member: 1438Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Vektuz+Nov 5 2002, 02:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vektuz @ Nov 5 2002, 02:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*** Or perhaps make it so that the fewer hives you have, the less the spawn delay is? to keep the aliens zerging! ****<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i likes the zerg idea
  • GibbyGibby Join Date: 2002-04-26 Member: 518Members
    edited November 2002
    Usually when the marines are organized enough, they send a huge group of guys to one hiv location asap. So the one or two skulks that are guarding that location are destroyed (maybe doing a few kills before) and the hive location is fallen.

    You are having unrealistic expectations of the aliens adequately defending all three hive locations against a squad of marines right out of the spawn. Firstly, the aliens are spread so thin at that point they can only defend against one or two marines at each hive. Secondly, that tactic is asking too much. Any side with a disadvantage CAN win if they are all awesome players and exectue the most brilliant strategic plan availible to maximum efficiency. Wheras marines only need to travel in groups, or get HA and HMGs and go alone, aliens have to pull brilliant tactics and intelligent distribution out of their butts in order to simply stay in the game.

    That is asking too much, where marines are a simple point and click, the aliens (which have been advertised as Deathmatch type play) must use superb working-togetherness and organization without the help of a commander, to go and complete an unrealistic objective so that they can eventually get 3 hives and be able to win.

    And if anyone here has played on the pubs, aliens rarely win. I'm not saying it dosen't happen, there's a lot of games where aliens kick major butt. But for the most part, playing as a marine is foolproof. You can't lose, because aliens can't defend the ENTIRE MAP right off the bat with their small numbers, tiny amount of armor and HP you have a spawn, and unfamiliarity with the map thrown in, theres just no way. If that's what's being asked of alien players, the website description should be changed. Because your standard deathmatcher will be unable to do this.

    Aliens are fun to stealth around with and kill guys with. But only fun, not effective. Aliens need to be skilled, smart, tactically sound, and fast. And not just a few, all of them. Marines can take their time in their base, then wander out as a group (invincible with their bullet hail flying everywhere) and casually spam the map with turrets and eventually get HMGs and HA, then go deathmatching.

    I'm a little fed up with being told that aliens need to be BETTER than marines to win. That says to me, "UNBALANCED". If both teams are equal, it should be an equal game. Right now, if both are equal skill then it's slanted to the marines in many aspects, and I hope that the dev team will consider bolstering the aliens abilities, in whatever way they consider effective.

    I love NS, by the way. It's taken the HL engine and made it it's bitch. Which is sweet. Just needs some fixes here and there.
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Upgrades:

    Level is based on number of chambers, not number of hives.
    Number of upgrades is based on number of hives.

    In other words, you can build one TYPE of chamber per hive. You can build as many of that TYPE as you wish.

    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=8192&hl=suck' target='_blank'>Topic on subject</a>




    Melee vs Grenades:
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1: Grenade launcher marines get owned by melee, hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Not if 2 marines shoot at each others' feet. There's no way to approach them since grens don't do friendly fire but will destroy any approaching alien.




    Fade vs marine:
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2: Fades can take out heavies without a whole lot of trouble if you are any good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=8597&s=' target='_blank'>See this thread</a>

    Not to say fades aren't a good class, but they certainly can't take out heavies "without trouble"




    Fade vs turrets:
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1 fade can take out 4 turrets if he uses the marine's buildings to block fire<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Smart commanders don't build their buildings in the way. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->




    My personal opinion? Aliens need a special siege-class evolution. Marines have a siege gun. Aliens need something that can take out buildings without trouble but has difficulty with marines.
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Do they actually hit twice or is that just the animation?
  • DSYStaufDSYStauf Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4429Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Bigwig+Nov 5 2002, 01:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bigwig @ Nov 5 2002, 01:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Slippery slope = when the marines get HA and HMGs, and the aliens only have 1 hive. It's practically impossible to win as aliens because:

    A. Skulks and gorges can't kill HA marines. They just can't.
    B. Skulks and gorges can't destroy marine buildings. The only viable way of destroying buildings as an alien is with Xenocide, bile bombs, or an onos. Note how these skills require THREE HIVES.
    C. The aliens can't defend themselves. The offense chambers might as well be shooting spitballs, because they don't DO ANYTHING.
    D. Grenade launchers and siege turrets.

    Basically, the aliens are in a rut, and there's no way in hell they have any chance of getting out. They could all rush the commander, but that just never happens in public matches.

    As of right now, the game is not balanced. I'm sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ridiculous...

    If the aliens are in a position where they have 1 hive, and, at the same time, all the marines have HA and HMG's, then that's called a fair game that the aliens lost. I'll admit it's very hard for the aliens to come back (not impossible, though), but that certainly doesn't make the game unbalanced. It just means the marines did a good job, and the aliens weren't able to stop them (or they just sucked... sorry).
  • GalligGallig Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4765Members
    You don't need 3 hives to win. 2 Hives are enough. A lerk with umbra and a fade can take out every turret defense PLUS marines. If you haven't noticed: Umbra renders turrets useless because they can no longer hit a strafing target and HMG/LMG/Pistol do only 1/8 of their damage (you have also to consider, that you have to aim flawlessly to get a 1/8 hit ratio when shooting into umbra)

    If the marines are able to secure two hives, why should you win? If the enemy is better than you, he's bound to win, isn't he? And securing a hive is not easy when the aliens are organized.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not if 2 marines shoot at each others' feet. There's no way to approach them since grens don't do friendly fire but will destroy any approaching alien.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Grens still do damage to their owner. These marines would have to be far away from each other, otherwise they'd kill themselves. Not bad for the cost of one skulk.
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Examples of why you all don't know enough of this game to accurately complain about balance:

    1) As a skulk, I can take out 3 turrets by myself. 4, if I'm lucky.
    2) The lerk's Umbra attack is a beautiful compliment to a Fade's acid rocket. Add a Gorge healing, and you've got a deadly trio who CAN take out bases.
    3) I have won entire games as a skulk using nothing but my bite attack. Theoretically, this could be done with ZERO hives. Remember, if the marines lose their CC and Infantry Portal, they've lost. Go for those.

    Many playtest games involved the destruction of the initial marine base, with the marines relocated to a hive. Now you have the marines defending a hive, and the aliens stuck at two - according to you all, aliens can't win in that case. And yet, they did, about as often as marines did.

    Learn to play the game before you try and pretend you know how it *should* be played.

    Oh, and issues with turrets and grenade launchers will *disappear* once the marines aren't swimming in resources any more.
  • KotauKotau Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6903Members
    Coil, thanks for backing up what I've been saying all day <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    3 hives does not equal aliens winning.

    You can win with 0 hives, it's just a LOT harder.

    I cannot believe the amount of bitching that's going on about the Kharaa

    I love em.
  • peakpeak Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6463Members
    There should be little base-defenses(2-3 OCs) at every hive location when the round starts so marines could not (atleast so easily) secure those hive-locations so quickly.

    Good or bad idea, i dont know.
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