Fortheloveofgodandallthingholy...
Fantasmo
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
<div class="IPBDescription">IN-GAME TUTORIAL FOR THE NEXT VERSION!!!</div> I've said it time and time and time and time again... NS needs an in-game tutorial.
This is me October '03:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Recently there has been an influx of threads by people unsatisfied with the NS Pub experience. They claim that, "NS is dying" or that "Pubs are no-fun". The most common factors I see being raised are newbies and uncooperative players.
NS, Pubs, and Newbies: Cultivating a Bigger, Better Player Base
From my experience the the Pub population has not declined, but it seems to me the quality of players has not risen. I feel this is due to new players taking a long time to learn NS and develop the proper Teamplay attitude.
This game requires you to know a few things before you are of any use to a team, the "I'll-Just-Figure-It-Out-Ingame" attitude will not hack it in NS. Faced with scores of "Pick-Up-and-Play" FPS titles it may be necessary to do all you can to make sure new players take the time to learn these things.
The result of inadaquete training or "I'll-Just-Figure-It-Out-Ingame" is problematic for the newbie, the growth of the game, and even regular players. If new players don't lose interest immediately, or get harassed to the point of quitting, the time they spend as newbies will serve only to frustrate their team and regular players who become tired of dealing with them.
NS has unique experiences to offer, namely Teamplay and the RTS-FPS style dynamic. I think more should be done to close the gap between newbie and novice so people can quickly begin to appreciate and enjoy the finer points of NS. I'm certain once they've had a taste they will be back for more. The developers needs to take steps to make the game friendly to newbies, and the community has to support them in cultivating a bigger, better teamplayer base.
I've been saying some of these things for ages and often with little response from the developers but I'll give it another go...
1. Training Map
Design a simple looking training map that takes a player through the structures, basic actions, goals, and locations. Functionality is more important then looks here, just pump out a training map ASAP for the next version. If it is possible force new players to do both the training maps for Marines and Aliens before the option to join a server is enabled.
2. NS Guides
Bring the NS Guides back and have them officially sanctioned by the NS Team. Organize them, advertise them, give them a website, a special icon, and get Guides on as many servers as possible. A training map is useful for a basic introduction of NS but some sort of liaison will help make the transition easier from standard DM/TDM FPS environment to our truly Teamplay FPS environment.
3. Newbie Servers or "Newbie Hours"
There should be servers dedicated to training newbies or have several servers host newbie hours at different times of the day. Once that is set up ADVERTISE THEM. Environment have to be created where newbies can ask questions without the annoyed, customary reaction of, "RTFM." If the Guides are properly organized with good coverage then there will be less need for many Newbie Servers but anytime there is a rush of new players (ie. release of new version) servers should be provided to facilitate proper cultivation of newbies to teamplayers.
4. The Community Factor
In another post [SuB] wrote, "If everyone puts in just a little bit into educating new players, focusing on what counts and having faith, NS probably has a fairly decent life ahead of it. If not, we will see it wither and die with age and lack of interest." If "helping people" is not your thing simply not harassing, getting overly annoyed or making fun of newbies will help make the community more open and friendly. It is especially important for prominent, "Icon'd" members of the community such as Vets and PTs to set a good example for people to follow.
I think #1-3 are steps the should have been taken upon the release of NS back in v1. The NS team should work to make NS more newbie-friendly ASAP. Pubs and Newbies are vitally important to the future of NS and #4 is what we could all do to ensure this great game gets more popular and the spirit of TEAMPLAY remains with us for a long time to come.
EDiT: Typos
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This thread:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72817' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=72817</a>
... made me realize an in-game tutorial is a matter of utmost importance guys.... if we can't rely on the community to teach new players then who?
I <i>always</i> take the time to explain things... but I seem to the exception to the rule nowadays. Me and my crazy ideas about wanting NS to be popular, fun, and full of teamplay even on pubs... <i>geez</i> what am I thinking.
This is me October '03:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Recently there has been an influx of threads by people unsatisfied with the NS Pub experience. They claim that, "NS is dying" or that "Pubs are no-fun". The most common factors I see being raised are newbies and uncooperative players.
NS, Pubs, and Newbies: Cultivating a Bigger, Better Player Base
From my experience the the Pub population has not declined, but it seems to me the quality of players has not risen. I feel this is due to new players taking a long time to learn NS and develop the proper Teamplay attitude.
This game requires you to know a few things before you are of any use to a team, the "I'll-Just-Figure-It-Out-Ingame" attitude will not hack it in NS. Faced with scores of "Pick-Up-and-Play" FPS titles it may be necessary to do all you can to make sure new players take the time to learn these things.
The result of inadaquete training or "I'll-Just-Figure-It-Out-Ingame" is problematic for the newbie, the growth of the game, and even regular players. If new players don't lose interest immediately, or get harassed to the point of quitting, the time they spend as newbies will serve only to frustrate their team and regular players who become tired of dealing with them.
NS has unique experiences to offer, namely Teamplay and the RTS-FPS style dynamic. I think more should be done to close the gap between newbie and novice so people can quickly begin to appreciate and enjoy the finer points of NS. I'm certain once they've had a taste they will be back for more. The developers needs to take steps to make the game friendly to newbies, and the community has to support them in cultivating a bigger, better teamplayer base.
I've been saying some of these things for ages and often with little response from the developers but I'll give it another go...
1. Training Map
Design a simple looking training map that takes a player through the structures, basic actions, goals, and locations. Functionality is more important then looks here, just pump out a training map ASAP for the next version. If it is possible force new players to do both the training maps for Marines and Aliens before the option to join a server is enabled.
2. NS Guides
Bring the NS Guides back and have them officially sanctioned by the NS Team. Organize them, advertise them, give them a website, a special icon, and get Guides on as many servers as possible. A training map is useful for a basic introduction of NS but some sort of liaison will help make the transition easier from standard DM/TDM FPS environment to our truly Teamplay FPS environment.
3. Newbie Servers or "Newbie Hours"
There should be servers dedicated to training newbies or have several servers host newbie hours at different times of the day. Once that is set up ADVERTISE THEM. Environment have to be created where newbies can ask questions without the annoyed, customary reaction of, "RTFM." If the Guides are properly organized with good coverage then there will be less need for many Newbie Servers but anytime there is a rush of new players (ie. release of new version) servers should be provided to facilitate proper cultivation of newbies to teamplayers.
4. The Community Factor
In another post [SuB] wrote, "If everyone puts in just a little bit into educating new players, focusing on what counts and having faith, NS probably has a fairly decent life ahead of it. If not, we will see it wither and die with age and lack of interest." If "helping people" is not your thing simply not harassing, getting overly annoyed or making fun of newbies will help make the community more open and friendly. It is especially important for prominent, "Icon'd" members of the community such as Vets and PTs to set a good example for people to follow.
I think #1-3 are steps the should have been taken upon the release of NS back in v1. The NS team should work to make NS more newbie-friendly ASAP. Pubs and Newbies are vitally important to the future of NS and #4 is what we could all do to ensure this great game gets more popular and the spirit of TEAMPLAY remains with us for a long time to come.
EDiT: Typos
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This thread:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72817' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=72817</a>
... made me realize an in-game tutorial is a matter of utmost importance guys.... if we can't rely on the community to teach new players then who?
I <i>always</i> take the time to explain things... but I seem to the exception to the rule nowadays. Me and my crazy ideas about wanting NS to be popular, fun, and full of teamplay even on pubs... <i>geez</i> what am I thinking.
Comments
Guides help new players learn how to play the game and help them understand it, they're a sort of... talking, playing, and walking tutorial if you should say.
Guides help new players learn how to play the game and help them understand it, they're a sort of... talking, playing, and walking tutorial if you should say. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are a good man. A very very good man.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
NS owes you and people like you.
EDIT:: In fact, why wouldnt ANYONE sign up?
Not me - I signed up too. Wouldnt really make much diff - I've been helpin newbs since 1.0, but it would be nice to get some official recognition and do some more indepth introductions to the game. Still, there has been a distinct lack of communication regarding the guides program. All I know of the guides is "yeah, getting a website, sign up for mailing list".
Thats it, period. No other info. I filled in a form on a website that i was directed to in irc, heard nothing back. It would be really nice to hear whats actually happening/planned for the guides. Is it going to be a heaps exclusive thing (from what Mouse told me - its pretty much invite only) or will it be "the more the merrier"?
If ur a nub + in Australia, Ausns teamplay is probably the best server to join. Heavily admined, good people, and the server ops are licenced to use their powers to promote teamwork ie reswhoring = boot.
Fantasmo - you remind me of joe average forum poster back in late 2002. That attitude got very heavily diluted very quickly in this here general forum <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Instead of bitching about it, why don't you go ahead and make a tutorial map, complete with scripted events and everything?
Ever consider Flayra wants a tutorial, but doesn't have the time to make one himself?
<span style='color:white'>Stop screaming.</span>
Then a marine rushed it 5 seconds later to release me from ny stupidity.
sadly you cant do a tutorial map that easy because its not singleplayer....
Then a marine rushed it 5 seconds later to release me from ny stupidity.
sadly you cant do a tutorial map that easy because its not singleplayer.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Create a map, and I'm sure after someone spending all that time would be willing to create a little add-on Training Mission that will be single-player.
Instead of bitching about it, why don't you go ahead and make a tutorial map, complete with scripted events and everything?
Ever consider Flayra wants a tutorial, but doesn't have the time to make one himself?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Bitching</b> is when you can do something about it but instead just whine and complain about why it's not done.
<b>Suggesting</b> is when you cannot do something about it but try to bring certain ideas and facts to light that might get something done.
Now if I had the:
1) Programming Skills
2) Mapping Skills
3) Time to produce a Tutorial Map
and I created a thread that said something like,
"Flayra is so dumb. He should make a tutorial map. I could do it no problem. I mean come on what is he thinking. NS is going to die without a tutorial. It is such a simple and easy thing do make. This is stupid."
Now then Forlorn your reply would be totally appropriate. However I don't believe my thread is whining or complaining... if any of the moderators think so then close this thread. I apologize for wasting everyones time and this will be soon forgotten I'm sure.
As for Flayra wanting a tutorial but not having the time for it. I find that whole argument suspect. Given the information I've heard through the grapevine I can see that he may not have time for it <i>now</i> and I understand. But the fact that between NS 1.0 and NS 3.0a there <i>were</i> on and off attempts at making an in-game tutorial (yes I have been here that long and I distinctly remember SCREENSHOTS of an in-game tutorial in the works) makes me thing that the idea was scraped for some reason.
I don't think it should have been scraped. If anything I think the idea should be put near the top of the "things-to-do" list. You know, above grens, electrify, new lerk flight model, NS: Combat. If Flay wanted to work on gameplay stuff he could have assigned some knowledgable people to do it. The fact that those things were done before a much needed and MUCH SUGGESTED (not only be me) tutorial I think I have the right to make the suggestion again.
As I have stated in my suggestion it doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to work.
Flay and NS Devs, I don't mean to be a jerk, and I don't mean to whine or complain if you percieve this as that. I want NS to be just as cool and teamplay as you and I really think an in-game tutorial will help... or I wouldn't have posted it.
Tell me I'm wrong, I always own up to my mistakes.
In reply to the guide comment, great way to start elitism. Limited number of people in highly sought after positions. I can just imagine the number of people joining just for recognition. And even better the people who actually wanna help new players out get left out in the cold. And lets face it, eveyone doesn't want to be a constant tutor. The burdon should be shared.
How about we just add a tag to our names when we are feeling Generous enough to help the young. Similar to *AFK or whatever. Something like Willing to Help, *WtH.
NSPlayer'WtH
Just my opinion on the matter.
Please note: You'll know when a tutorial is actually possible to implement into the game when mappers are suddenly able to pre-place buildings in a map, or dynamically (run-time) place them. And place unbuilt or prebuilt ones at that. And preplace dropped equipment.
None of these things are currently available to mappers, all of which would more or less be essential in order to have a training map. All of which mappers have been crying out for even without thinking about a training map, but just wanting the freedom to place these things.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First We should start by helping people learn how to play instead of ejecting them from the com chair. I'm so sick of people ejecting a new player I am helping out then whinning because no one will comm. What do comms just fall from the sky when we complain? I know any normal commander doesn't like to start mid game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes that is hella annoying.
Another thing I find hella-wicked annoying is when <i>nobody</i> jumps into the COMM chair for the first 30-45 seconds and then a new commander announces he is new and haven't COMM'd much but since <b>nobody is COMMing</b> he will give it a try.
Then the very first mistake he makes or it could even be something like he is <i>3 seconds late placing an RT/Building</i> when someone asks and people fly off the handle accusing him of being a newb/n00b and worse.
But I don't want this to turn into a complaining about stuff thread. Even if it's stuff that really shows why we need some sort of in-game tutorial to get people started.
<b>Bobthe Alien</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In reply to the guide comment, great way to start elitism. Limited number of people in highly sought after positions. I can just imagine the number of people joining just for recognition. And even better the people who actually wanna help new players out get left out in the cold. And lets face it, eveyone doesn't want to be a constant tutor. The burdon should be shared.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If elitism ever happens within NS Guides then it is a failed project, it might as well not exist.
The whole idea with NS Guides is it should be about helping people and not status. If there was a sort of position it would be "The Most Helpful NS Guide" which I would encourage people to compete and go for. <u>By being a NS guide you are not privilaged to recieve anything more then what a regular player recieves and you are required to do a job.</u> It's called "volunteering." You'll get a ICON sure but remember, somewhere offical will say "Ask people with this ICON for help <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> They are friendly and knowledgable."
All newbie questions will be directed to your little ICON.
Jebus forbid, it does become a "status" thing and people think having a NS Guide ICON is the shiznizzle. You slime your way in by sucking up to whoever has the power to get you ICONed and you get it. All of a sudden you are the Shiznizzle and all the newbies are asking <i>you</i> questions on every server you visit. I wonder how long that will last if you don't really want to help and just wanted to get ICONed.
If NS Guides becomes official and is managed decently* the spirit of the group (to be helpful with NS)
*ie. Guides from all areas, countries. On popular servers have more Guides hanging out and recruit smaller, less popular servers for NEWBIE HOURS as suggested:
<b>Fantasmo</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. Newbie Servers or "Newbie Hours"
There should be servers dedicated to training newbies or have several servers host newbie hours at different times of the day. Once that is set up ADVERTISE THEM. Environment have to be created where newbies can ask questions without the annoyed, customary reaction of, "RTFM." If the Guides are properly organized with good coverage then there will be less need for many Newbie Servers but anytime there is a rush of new players (ie. release of new version) servers should be provided to facilitate proper cultivation of newbies to teamplayers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<u><b>Newbie Friendly Ns Servers Review, Where the fun is at.</b></u>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36262' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=36262</a>
Something like this kinda exists but I would make it more official, maybe even a "Newbie filter" to get all the servers currently being "<i>extra</i> friendly" (when guides are teaching). Not everyone who plays NS comes to the forums. Not everyone new will come to the forums.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How about we just add a tag to our names when we are feeling Generous enough to help the young. Similar to *AFK or whatever. Something like Willing to Help, *WtH.
NSPlayer'WtH<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something like that was tried but I don't recall what happened to it. I think NS Guides is a good idea but I think if you feel like helping you should just do it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> who cares about the ICON or the tag. Just don't give an honest new player who's interested in NS a bad time.
<b>Bob the Alien</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just my opinion on the matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And as always, your opinion is welcome. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thanks.
'Tasmo
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Last word I heard, Merkaba (maker of Hera) had a completed training map all ready,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would really like to see it. I mean really. 2.0 Hera is one of my all time favorites for looks. So anyways you are saying the map is already put together. Good, that is one phase completed.
<b>Fieari</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but was lacking one thing: the scripting elements that would enable said map to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay we need someone with the ability to code it.
<b>Fieari</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Those scripting elements would have to be coded into the game, Those scripting elements would have to be coded into the game, which Flayra did not do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Fieari</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You'll know when a tutorial is actually possible to implement into the game when mappers are suddenly able to pre-place buildings in a map, or dynamically (run-time) place them. And place unbuilt or prebuilt ones at that. And preplace dropped equipment.
None of these things are currently available to mappers, all of which would more or less be essential in order to have a training map. All of which mappers have been crying out for even without thinking about a training map, but just wanting the freedom to place these things.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can this be done by somebody other then Flay? From what I've seen in the Mapping Forums Cagey is quite good and has the background in HL compiling. Although he is working with Flay right now. Can anyone else be qualified to do this?
<b>Fieari</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The claim at each point was that there were many more important things he was working on at any given moment. It just kept getting pushed further and further back, until at this moment, I don't think it'll get done unless one of the new coders brought on board does it, and I get the feeling they're also assigned to other projects of varying import.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not gonna comment on why it wasn't done cause I don't know. But as for the rest I'm just suggesting it should be moved up on the "Important List". Keeping the idea on their Radar.
If it is not possible at the moment due to coding constraints then somebody speak up and put me out of my misery.
I don't have the programming background to know if this is a really difficult thing we're asking for or not.
Thanks for the scoop Fieari that was some really good info. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I think if the map is made and it <i>is</i> possible for someone else to do this lets see what we can set in motion to find that person. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
'Tasmo
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know, as i'm not one of the devs, but I doubt very much that their ability is stopping them doing some thing like this... but more so the time commitment.
The BUS is under development at the moment (a lot of time being put in by XP-Cagey from the impression i've been given), Flayra is in the middle of moving house and setting up a company (Unkown Worlds Entertainment).
A tutorial map would be good. I don't think any one would argue with that. And i'm sure it's definately some thing in the pipeline, but there are so many things that are getting done, how do they prioritise them...
On a note about the guides - I think you should give a little more credit to the leads of the guide team about their selection of people for it - as you pointed out, there are many people who want to help... but there is nothing stopping you helping. The people selected to be guides are people who have offered a large amount of time and patience to help - again, some thing many people do all the time - the difference being those people have no obligation to offer such help - the guides have all been told quite simply if they stop helping and keep using the icon for 'status' they lose it. it's that simple....
The problem when you don't make some thing like guides invite only would be that so many people start wearing the tag/icon, and suddenly it's too many to keep track of - it only needs one or two people to prat about, and the whole thing gets a bad name - that was one of the downfalls of the last group - majority did a fantastic job, but it got let down by a select few...
give it more time - every one is hard at work at the moment - but these things take time - especially this time of year in the middle of exam season.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know, as i'm not one of the devs, but I doubt very much that their ability is stopping them doing some thing like this... but more so the time commitment.
The BUS is under development at the moment (a lot of time being put in by XP-Cagey from the impression i've been given), Flayra is in the middle of moving house and setting up a company (Unkown Worlds Entertainment).
A tutorial map would be good. I don't think any one would argue with that. And i'm sure it's definately some thing in the pipeline, but there are so many things that are getting done, how do they prioritise them...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I wrote this thread I feared people would precieve it as a now-now-now thread. Flay has mentioned working on free HL mod is not exactly putting food on table. I understand there is such a thing called Career and Life too. I am sensible enough to understand even from my perspective.
This is just a...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Hey, remember that tutorial map you guys were making and that we have been asking for (hopefully politely)? This is just our reminder that we think it is a good idea and worth considering for the next version."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would be willing to wait just a little bit longer for it to completed. Or better yet get someone to work on it as a patch and release when ready.
<b>shanks</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On a note about the guides - I think you should give a little more credit to the leads of the guide team about their selection of people for it - as you pointed out, there are many people who want to help... but there is nothing stopping you helping. The people selected to be guides are people who have offered a large amount of time and patience to help - again, some thing many people do all the time - the difference being those people have no obligation to offer such help - the guides have all been told quite simply if they stop helping and keep using the icon for 'status' they lose it. it's that simple....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>shanks</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->give it more time - every one is hard at work at the moment - but these things take time - especially this time of year in the middle of exam season.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally shanks. The NS Guides are and have always been a great idea and thank jebus they exist. I don't have the time to dedicate to being a member or I'd definately try. I help whenever I can but I could only be consider a good samaritan. You guys are actually doing a service for those who don't volunteer to be guides and would rather not play with fresh, green newbie spewing questions and getting lost. Leading such a training force would require dedication I'm sure, and any time you can dedicate is much appreciated. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>shanks</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem when you don't make some thing like guides invite only would be that so many people start wearing the tag/icon, and suddenly it's too many to keep track of - it only needs one or two people to prat about, and the whole thing gets a bad name - that was one of the downfalls of the last group - majority did a fantastic job, but it got let down by a select few...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it should be invite-only, wonid ICONed and <b>official</b> like on the front page of www.natural-selection.org and in the tutorial*.
*Somewhere in the tutorial introduce the NS Guide ICON.
It doesn't cost any money and someone with the time and patience to head up the admin stuff like organizing recruiting/scheduling; sounds complex but it really being the #1 Guy on the NS team to give approval of people nominated by Guides, finding servers willing to host Newbie Hours, and do a loose schedule of server coverage during new patch/version scenarios.
Just like there are <b>officially</b> people who help test the game, there are <b>officially</b> people who help new players.
NS has special needs, it isn't CS, COD or BF1942. If there are people serious and committed enough to take on the challenge and do the community a great favor why not? Ha.ze said they are being re-introduced and he is also a new member (Huzzah Ha.ze Huzzah!).
With the BUS coming I think it would be a great time to have NS Guides back. I hope they get taken to the official level.
'Tasmo <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My first match as comm was so easy because of the amount of background knolage I had read in the manual (arms lab -> armour and weapon upgrades).
I really hope it works this time.
My personal recommendation to you, Fantasmo, if you're really serious about what you want: Do some research on what would be required (not HOW, but exactly what), spend some time figuring up a plan of action, outline creative solutions to problems, and be prepared to refute people who will inevitably try to discredit, make people believe they can actually do what you say. For example:
Not:
"We need to have Newbie Servers. We can do it!"
Do this:
"The scripting issue is a problem, but what if we took the NS Guides, got a few of them together on a certain night, and let them run through some common NS actions with newbies who decide to show up? If <b>I scheduled it out, aquired a server, and did most of the legwork</b> would anyone with the expertise in other areas be willing to help?"
As much as I hate to admit it, no one's going to bite for an idea unless the owner of said idea is willing to put for most, if not all, the effort.
My personal recommendation to the rest of you is be open minded. Don't harshly critisize an idea before you give it a fair chance. And for the love of god don't stand around here not ever even intending to do any work for the community and still post negativly in these threads. That's like not voting and then complaining about who the president is.
i got all defensive about Guides - sorry... i've been given a little bit of abuse on irc since the people involved have become known - nothing serious, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe part of BUS is these changes.. who knows - the obvious target for a tutorial map would be when NS comes out of beta - the learning curve for NS is very steep - it's extremely difficult at first - when it goes official (which it deserves to be as it's so damn good) it will attract a whole new load of players - a tutorial map for them would be ideal...
we can only hope - i'm sure there are enough mappers out there who could do the mapping, but the big part would be the coding for it - and making it very good - it's got to be interesting without being too 'boring' - ie show the beginners all aspects of the game from as many points of view as they can, without over-loading them with info that they get put off
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The original NS Guides program failed due to the fact that people just wanted to have the shiny icon.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original Guides program failed due to its leader literally dissapearing from one day to the next (I'm still a little worried about Bilks... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
The very first time I played TFC online was great fun (which was actually the first time I'd got to play online properly at all) and I wasn't a newb, mainly because I read the whole manual thing (as bad as it is) forwards and backwards, then I opened up a LAN game and had a play with all the classes and their abilities, then I looked online for information on general ettiquette, what should and shouldn't be done.
Took a few hours and meant I've never had someone complain once about 'newbie' behaviour from me. I don't understand how anyone can not do the same tbh, when I bought Baldurs Gate I read the entire manual before I put it in, I did the same when I borrowed an old version of MSFlight Sim from a mate (99 maybe? dunno) and flight sims really aren't my cup of tea... I just can't bring myself to jump into a game and then stumble around looking stupid!
My mate leant me a copy of Secret of Mana (one of the best RPG's ever imo) complaining that it was too hard. I read the manual and showed him how to play it properly and then we played the whole thing through together, one of my fave game experiences (obviously not all in one sitting), he didn't really like the game before I showed him the manual and he is a clever bloke, really nice person... most people don't read up before they jump in.
Find a way to solve that one and NS... no, not just NS, <i>every</i> game will be vastly improved.
the information is all there, if people can be bothered to find it.
My first game of NS was on a lan server with a friend - he introduced me to NS - told me about it, and to get it. downloaded, installed, we set up a quick lan, and he showed me the ropes for 30 mins...
we then hopped on an internet server, sitting side-by-side and played for a couple of hours as marines, me just following him around and copying what he did - we then went aliens, did a similar thing - was fantastic...
sadly not every one is in such a position. I still like the old method of flashing screenshots up on the installation - part of the problem with a manual for a game like NS is that it has to be so damn long - and a lot of it is extremely confusing until you've got onto a server and seen it taking place...
Another problem is that a lot of people really aren't very good at learning with using the 'hands-on' approach and that does affect those who want to play without baby sitting the new person.
I still believe that guides and manuals are a good thing, if someone thinks about reading the manual for even a split second then they should be one click away from it, otherwise they just won't be bothered. The more they RTFM and the less we have to shout that same acronym the better.
Plus guides set a good example, not so much in the mechanics of the game but in how to behave, various tactics and just being a decent member of the community in general. Thats where the NS Guides value lies, in being an example to others not in how to BHop but friendly, well balanced games which everyone enjoys.
But if you act friendly & follow orders as a noob on a pub you can also learn the game, just asks questions, and try NOT to make a mess!
Or if you have the resources: make a LAN and put NS 2.0 on it, then go start playing it with 11 more friends, you'll get at least the basics that way.
Instead of bitching about it, why don't you go ahead and make a tutorial map, complete with scripted events and everything?
Ever consider Flayra wants a tutorial, but doesn't have the time to make one himself?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Bitching</b> is when you can do something about it but instead just whine and complain about why it's not done.
<b>Suggesting</b> is when you cannot do something about it but try to bring certain ideas and facts to light that might get something done.
Now if I had the:
1) Programming Skills
2) Mapping Skills
3) Time to produce a Tutorial Map
and I created a thread that said something like,
"Flayra is so dumb. He should make a tutorial map. I could do it no problem. I mean come on what is he thinking. NS is going to die without a tutorial. It is such a simple and easy thing do make. This is stupid."
Now then Forlorn your reply would be totally appropriate. However I don't believe my thread is whining or complaining... if any of the moderators think so then close this thread. I apologize for wasting everyones time and this will be soon forgotten I'm sure.
As for Flayra wanting a tutorial but not having the time for it. I find that whole argument suspect. Given the information I've heard through the grapevine I can see that he may not have time for it <i>now</i> and I understand. But the fact that between NS 1.0 and NS 3.0a there <i>were</i> on and off attempts at making an in-game tutorial (yes I have been here that long and I distinctly remember SCREENSHOTS of an in-game tutorial in the works) makes me thing that the idea was scraped for some reason.
I don't think it should have been scraped. If anything I think the idea should be put near the top of the "things-to-do" list. You know, above grens, electrify, new lerk flight model, NS: Combat. If Flay wanted to work on gameplay stuff he could have assigned some knowledgable people to do it. The fact that those things were done before a much needed and MUCH SUGGESTED (not only be me) tutorial I think I have the right to make the suggestion again.
As I have stated in my suggestion it doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to work.
Flay and NS Devs, I don't mean to be a jerk, and I don't mean to whine or complain if you percieve this as that. I want NS to be just as cool and teamplay as you and I really think an in-game tutorial will help... or I wouldn't have posted it.
Tell me I'm wrong, I always own up to my mistakes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To quote from the title:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Replying to Fortheloveofgodandallthingholy...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not bitching?
Man, this whole topic is like a polite rant.
Look, a tutorial has been suggested before the game was even released. What is the point about complaining of something that everyone knows needs to be done?
Anyhow, at least <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72868&view=findpost&p=1104783' target='_blank'>someone</a> is doing something about this.