Re-think Ns For Large Open Maps In An Ns2
Apos
Join Date: 2003-06-14 Member: 17369Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-06-14 Member: 17369Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">new ideas to donate to the future</div> IMPORTANT RULES
1) Any ideas you express in this thread are automatically free-domain. That means they are free for the NS devs to **** up and use without any credit to you at all. This is a condition of posting ideas in this thread: only post ideas you are willing to donate to the NS devs and give up all personal right to.
2) Yes, we know, vehicles. Wow. Let's be a little more specific and a little more creative than "a tank! a helicopter!" Exactly what is the vehicle, how does it operate, what are its special weaknesses, and most importantly, how can it be made different from all the millions of other games out there and fit the NS theme. The most important thing, IMHO, is that a new NS
3) We are assuming that this is for a different engine, and I'm personally assuming it's Source, though this is certain, and you are under no obligation to assume this. Don't go too crazy though.
4) Don't alter the basic themes. Alien technologies combine and enhance each other organically. Marines have to work as a team to survive. Gritty, dirty stuff, not super high-tech "solve everything instantly" tech
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Anyway, the point of this thread is to brainstorm about how NS could be adapted to new map types that would be possible on new engines like HL2s: larger maps, more open areas. It isn't so much ideas and suggestions as it is just a fun speculation on all the neat things that could be tried.
So. Let's say that the Kharaa make it to a planet surface. How will they adapt to fight on large open terrain? How will the marines counter them? Hives will clearly have to be inside buildings or underground (can they be mobile? Can they be placed anywhere?), and its not clear how resource nodes should work (maybe protective walls? Maybe something completely new than nodes as a resource sytem?)
Aliens
MAIN PROBLEM: with large open spaces the sneaky/ambush specialty of the Kharaa will have to be rethought.
<b>Skulks/base unit</b>: obviously, skulks would get slaughtered out in the open in their current form. How would the Kharaa adapt to face these new challenges?
My first idea is that they would have a new base ability to flatten, toggled by the crouch key. That is, they could smush down until they are barely a few pixels thick. Marines would basically not be able to see skulks moving towards them unless they could get some elevation or until they get close enough that marines can see them due to the close up angle. Skulks in this mode could pretty much instantly leap up out of this form to attack. It would definately be creepy: you see what look almost like shadows moving towards you in and out of the grasses, and suddenly a skulk leaps out at your face. Sort of like lions stalking their prey in the tall grasses. The other neat thing about this is that the commander would be able to see skulks like this, but of course can't tell the marines exactly where to shoot, only the general area they are in. In this mode, a skulks' visibility would be restricted, because it's view would be so close to the ground. It might need additional senses to actually give it a chance to spot marines before they spot it.
Weapons:
bite (only in normal mode)
leap (works right out of the flat mode: scary!)
parasite (also works out of flat mode, without having to change)
xeno (have to come out of flat mode to even initiate the attack
<b>Gorges/Builders</b>: Gorges, like all the aliens, would have similar problems: you could see them from halfway across the map in some areas, and they are virtually defenseless. One possible solution would be to give them the ability to burrow into a little ways into the ground when danger arises so that marines could only kill them by standing directly above. They could even get a sort of "periscope" so they could see if it was safe to emerge from hiding, and send out hivesight alert to let other aliens know that they are underthreat and hiding.
weapons:
healspray (greater range)
close range homing spit (since open areas give marines almost unlimited room to dodge)
bilebomb (greater range, but not by much, still need to be close to a structure)
webs
Potential Towers:
Offense tower: as before, but adapted to distance (faster projectiles, though with limited range so they can't shoot across entire maps) different types might be neat for different situations
Anti-missle towers: to counter large marine projectile weapons: they shoot up "chaff" to divert targeted marine weapons
Defense tower: heals nearby aliens/structures
Umbra tower: blocks distant fire
Sensory tower: cloaks nearby aliens/structures
Movement tower: increases the speed of nearby aliens/structures, warps aliens along the movement network (more than just hives now, but still with the "wrap to hive under attack" feature)
<b>Lerks/flying units</b>: They would be excellent recon units, but of course also easy to see and pick off from a distance. I would suggest giving them a Halo-like umbra sheild that's resistant (but not impervious) to distant gunfire but does get drained and has to recharge before it works again. Lerks could thus take to the air to move quickly, have their umbra sheild survive for a bit, but they would have to reach cover before it completely drained and they are toast. Close up, this sheild is far far less effective, like all umbra effects.
Lerks should definately have the ability to "ferry" smaller units around: gorges and skulks. This would be a must on big maps. They could sneak a skulk or gorge behind enemy lines.
weapons:
divebomb/bite (should be suited for swooping down at marines instead of landing and running around biting them)
spikes- only real alien distance weapon, but used mostly for harrying marines rather than dealing much real destruction
spores: might not be a great idea in open areas, but the idea of an anti-armor weapon that forces camping marines to move out is a good one.
umbra: dunno, would rather see it used as I've implied: protects aliens in it from distance fire, not close up attacks.
<b>Fades</b>: Probably the best adapted for open maps already, blinking would probably be best back the way it used to be: where fades were essentially invisible while blinking. You would see a fade in the distance, blipping in and out, first on one hilltop, then another, then suddenly bursting into the midst of a group of marines, dealing damage, and then vanishing again to go heal.
weapons:
blink
swipe (much more complex: ability not only to swipe in front, but also slice to either side at once in a group of marines rwwwwwaaaaaaar!)
metabolize
acid rocket (both gun mode and mortar mode)
<b>Onos/Heavy assault/anti-structure unit</b>: Onos could be shot continually from a long way away on open maps. So I would suggest then that they be <i>completely</i> impervious to gunfire from head-on and the front end of the sides: marines would have to find a way to catch them from the back end of the sides or the back, or from above. This would give marines a lot more incentives to be more tactical, to work on flanking their enemies.
Onos should also be able to "ferry" other units (cept for fades). They bring the battle to the marines, big time, attacking while unloading a horde of skulks and lerks.
Onos should have a natural damage effect to anything they run into (basic physics knockback damage)
Weapons:
Gore
devour (much greater range)
stomp (again, much greater range- might be neat if this was a natural effect of an onos jumping: a neat 3rd level combo attack would be charging, jumping and landing in the midst of the marines with a radius stomp effect)
charge
Marines
MAIN PROBLEM: Giving them neat new tools that wouldn't simultaneously be cliches or make life irritating for aliens. Also, given that we'd have to make the aliens pretty powerful to deal with the marines distance advantage, they might then be TOO powerful close up for marines to deal with. Aliens should probably have some close up weaknesses that aren't exposed from the distance.
What I would hope the marines SHOULDN'T have, since it would make for irritating gameplay
Commander targeted Mortars/missle attacks: nothing dumber than getting immediately killed by unforseeable, unavoidable fire raining down from the sky. Even imprecise marine targeted mortars could end up being plain irritating spamage.
Sniper rifles: It would be hard to explain why marines wouldn't have these, but virtually every game with big open maps has sniper rifles. It's cliched, and it's irritating, and it doesn't fit the RTS world all that well to be taking out units from the other side of the map. Marine weapons will be bad enough shooting across the map.
I don't have as many thoughts on marines yet. Obviously they would have vehicle units, but I don't want to see boring old standards. They would also probably have anti-structure rockets and many of the usual equipment (phase networks would be especially important).
I'd also like to see some sort of light recon unit, not much of a fighter but perhaps with some sort of anti-hivesite tech that allows him to get behind enemy lines and build structures like phases and such.
Any other big ideas?
1) Any ideas you express in this thread are automatically free-domain. That means they are free for the NS devs to **** up and use without any credit to you at all. This is a condition of posting ideas in this thread: only post ideas you are willing to donate to the NS devs and give up all personal right to.
2) Yes, we know, vehicles. Wow. Let's be a little more specific and a little more creative than "a tank! a helicopter!" Exactly what is the vehicle, how does it operate, what are its special weaknesses, and most importantly, how can it be made different from all the millions of other games out there and fit the NS theme. The most important thing, IMHO, is that a new NS
3) We are assuming that this is for a different engine, and I'm personally assuming it's Source, though this is certain, and you are under no obligation to assume this. Don't go too crazy though.
4) Don't alter the basic themes. Alien technologies combine and enhance each other organically. Marines have to work as a team to survive. Gritty, dirty stuff, not super high-tech "solve everything instantly" tech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, the point of this thread is to brainstorm about how NS could be adapted to new map types that would be possible on new engines like HL2s: larger maps, more open areas. It isn't so much ideas and suggestions as it is just a fun speculation on all the neat things that could be tried.
So. Let's say that the Kharaa make it to a planet surface. How will they adapt to fight on large open terrain? How will the marines counter them? Hives will clearly have to be inside buildings or underground (can they be mobile? Can they be placed anywhere?), and its not clear how resource nodes should work (maybe protective walls? Maybe something completely new than nodes as a resource sytem?)
Aliens
MAIN PROBLEM: with large open spaces the sneaky/ambush specialty of the Kharaa will have to be rethought.
<b>Skulks/base unit</b>: obviously, skulks would get slaughtered out in the open in their current form. How would the Kharaa adapt to face these new challenges?
My first idea is that they would have a new base ability to flatten, toggled by the crouch key. That is, they could smush down until they are barely a few pixels thick. Marines would basically not be able to see skulks moving towards them unless they could get some elevation or until they get close enough that marines can see them due to the close up angle. Skulks in this mode could pretty much instantly leap up out of this form to attack. It would definately be creepy: you see what look almost like shadows moving towards you in and out of the grasses, and suddenly a skulk leaps out at your face. Sort of like lions stalking their prey in the tall grasses. The other neat thing about this is that the commander would be able to see skulks like this, but of course can't tell the marines exactly where to shoot, only the general area they are in. In this mode, a skulks' visibility would be restricted, because it's view would be so close to the ground. It might need additional senses to actually give it a chance to spot marines before they spot it.
Weapons:
bite (only in normal mode)
leap (works right out of the flat mode: scary!)
parasite (also works out of flat mode, without having to change)
xeno (have to come out of flat mode to even initiate the attack
<b>Gorges/Builders</b>: Gorges, like all the aliens, would have similar problems: you could see them from halfway across the map in some areas, and they are virtually defenseless. One possible solution would be to give them the ability to burrow into a little ways into the ground when danger arises so that marines could only kill them by standing directly above. They could even get a sort of "periscope" so they could see if it was safe to emerge from hiding, and send out hivesight alert to let other aliens know that they are underthreat and hiding.
weapons:
healspray (greater range)
close range homing spit (since open areas give marines almost unlimited room to dodge)
bilebomb (greater range, but not by much, still need to be close to a structure)
webs
Potential Towers:
Offense tower: as before, but adapted to distance (faster projectiles, though with limited range so they can't shoot across entire maps) different types might be neat for different situations
Anti-missle towers: to counter large marine projectile weapons: they shoot up "chaff" to divert targeted marine weapons
Defense tower: heals nearby aliens/structures
Umbra tower: blocks distant fire
Sensory tower: cloaks nearby aliens/structures
Movement tower: increases the speed of nearby aliens/structures, warps aliens along the movement network (more than just hives now, but still with the "wrap to hive under attack" feature)
<b>Lerks/flying units</b>: They would be excellent recon units, but of course also easy to see and pick off from a distance. I would suggest giving them a Halo-like umbra sheild that's resistant (but not impervious) to distant gunfire but does get drained and has to recharge before it works again. Lerks could thus take to the air to move quickly, have their umbra sheild survive for a bit, but they would have to reach cover before it completely drained and they are toast. Close up, this sheild is far far less effective, like all umbra effects.
Lerks should definately have the ability to "ferry" smaller units around: gorges and skulks. This would be a must on big maps. They could sneak a skulk or gorge behind enemy lines.
weapons:
divebomb/bite (should be suited for swooping down at marines instead of landing and running around biting them)
spikes- only real alien distance weapon, but used mostly for harrying marines rather than dealing much real destruction
spores: might not be a great idea in open areas, but the idea of an anti-armor weapon that forces camping marines to move out is a good one.
umbra: dunno, would rather see it used as I've implied: protects aliens in it from distance fire, not close up attacks.
<b>Fades</b>: Probably the best adapted for open maps already, blinking would probably be best back the way it used to be: where fades were essentially invisible while blinking. You would see a fade in the distance, blipping in and out, first on one hilltop, then another, then suddenly bursting into the midst of a group of marines, dealing damage, and then vanishing again to go heal.
weapons:
blink
swipe (much more complex: ability not only to swipe in front, but also slice to either side at once in a group of marines rwwwwwaaaaaaar!)
metabolize
acid rocket (both gun mode and mortar mode)
<b>Onos/Heavy assault/anti-structure unit</b>: Onos could be shot continually from a long way away on open maps. So I would suggest then that they be <i>completely</i> impervious to gunfire from head-on and the front end of the sides: marines would have to find a way to catch them from the back end of the sides or the back, or from above. This would give marines a lot more incentives to be more tactical, to work on flanking their enemies.
Onos should also be able to "ferry" other units (cept for fades). They bring the battle to the marines, big time, attacking while unloading a horde of skulks and lerks.
Onos should have a natural damage effect to anything they run into (basic physics knockback damage)
Weapons:
Gore
devour (much greater range)
stomp (again, much greater range- might be neat if this was a natural effect of an onos jumping: a neat 3rd level combo attack would be charging, jumping and landing in the midst of the marines with a radius stomp effect)
charge
Marines
MAIN PROBLEM: Giving them neat new tools that wouldn't simultaneously be cliches or make life irritating for aliens. Also, given that we'd have to make the aliens pretty powerful to deal with the marines distance advantage, they might then be TOO powerful close up for marines to deal with. Aliens should probably have some close up weaknesses that aren't exposed from the distance.
What I would hope the marines SHOULDN'T have, since it would make for irritating gameplay
Commander targeted Mortars/missle attacks: nothing dumber than getting immediately killed by unforseeable, unavoidable fire raining down from the sky. Even imprecise marine targeted mortars could end up being plain irritating spamage.
Sniper rifles: It would be hard to explain why marines wouldn't have these, but virtually every game with big open maps has sniper rifles. It's cliched, and it's irritating, and it doesn't fit the RTS world all that well to be taking out units from the other side of the map. Marine weapons will be bad enough shooting across the map.
I don't have as many thoughts on marines yet. Obviously they would have vehicle units, but I don't want to see boring old standards. They would also probably have anti-structure rockets and many of the usual equipment (phase networks would be especially important).
I'd also like to see some sort of light recon unit, not much of a fighter but perhaps with some sort of anti-hivesite tech that allows him to get behind enemy lines and build structures like phases and such.
Any other big ideas?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
And we need a fifthalien , a swimming alien, it was planned in pre alpha but there was not enough feedwater in all ns maps for it.
Babblers would be too much like bots if they were anything other than near-gorge decoy. Sort of the neat element of Ns is precisely that all the "real" RTS units are actual people. Having lots of bots would not be server resource consuming, but also against that spirit.
And we need a fifthalien , a swimming alien, it was planned in pre alpha but there was not enough feedwater in all ns maps for it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*mandator omg a scorpion that hovers with out flapping*
Have you <i>seen</i> what the HL2 engine (and probably a bunch of other engines in the near future) can do?
Yes. And they can't do "anywhere" digging. They are all .bsp based. Geo-Mod stuff like Red Faction is possible, but comes at an unacceptably huge cost in detail and performance.
I think that NS2 will have to have a player limit of 32, this is not because of any performance issues but becuase any more than 16people and the commander is going to struggle.
I think one of the most obvious things will be the addition of the 'holy' flamethrower, I've got a feeling that this will be a very real possablility because Flayra has mentioned that he wants one.
Well, the point of this thread is to imagine the possibilities. Maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't. But it's interesting to consider what would be necessary to make it work, and if it could still be NS.
Story-wise, the Kharaa start to infest ships: that's first contact. But infesting planets is the obvious next step.
You're worried about the comm struggling? In games that big, there is no res flow for aliens, so marines should have it easy.
That's nice. Perhaps you should bring this up in a thread that isn't devoted to the topic of what NS might be in a large map setting.
My 2 cents...
Imagine a tropical jungle, with foilage so thick you can't see more than twenty feet in most places... Paths carved through the undergrowth would be your "narrow hallways", but instead of watching vents for ambushes, you have to watch EVERYWHERE. Add in some elevation changes (Cliffs, hills, etc), and you have a combat environment.
And speaking of cliffs, what about a desert-type area with water-carved canyons, caves, and plateaus. Do it in the late hours of the evening, light-wise, and you've got plenty of convoluted paths through the snaking canyon system, and lots of little holes for ambushes...
Just ideas, but remember that "outdoors" doesn't NECESSARILY mean "flat ground, open sky, sniperfest"
ns = more fun at close quarters
Im sorry but it would reek in my opinion
Nuff' Said.
open map: HEY LOOK theres a skulk 4053489072 miles away lets pistol him
skulk: darn now i must wait 1 minute before i spawn again and die.
this game is not meant for open maps.
just think of the movie aliens.
oh if you want a good atmosphere
type this in your console, gamma 4 brightness 4 lightgamma 4
now
you can barely see 20 feet ahead :/
remember you gotta play devils advocate you cant have all just GOOD ideas gotta show the cons tbh irl meights
I picture the standard alien unit being more of an all-round fighter rather than a sneaky git, with enough HP to take a fair beating, but still not enough to charge a marine in a straight line from 2 miles away and still kill him. Something like a zergling from starcraft, tougher than the current skulk, and faster so that it can close the distance.
Just because maps are "larger" does not mean they are going to consist of big open fields, that would just be boring. There will ALWAYS be cover, and spots for aliens to hide behind.
One possibility is making the standard alien unit weak alone, but have the teams set up so that there will always be twice as many alien players than marines. This would add to the "horde" feel of the aliens, but would also probably annoy people who prefer playing marines. O.k that idea just plain sucks....
As to the sniper rifle dilemma, just think, why don't sniper rifles own all in strategy games? Limited range. This could be represented by all alien units vanishing at long distances due to some nano girdlock/alien bacteria that i'm sure whoever's in charge of the story can figure out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Either that, or DO include a sniper rifle. Not all cliques are bad, especially if we make it more of a slow firing long-range rifle than a one-shot killing machine. Think M1 Garrand with a scope.
I have an exam now so i'll have to cut this short, wish me luck <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
E.g. adding more units, heavy duty ones
The thing that i would most like to see in NS2, is of course Mechs for the rines, and massive flying pterodactyl style birds.
And large alien motherships.
Boths teams gaining a huuuuge siege engine.