Public Beta: Minor Tweakage Or Major Tweakage?
Fantasmo
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
<div class="IPBDescription">few things @ a time or everything @ once</div> Hi all.
Just wanted to drop by and tickle your gorge.
<u>Public Beta: Minor Tweakage or Major Tweakage?</u>
<i>A few things at a time or everything at once?</i>
What do you think?
I challenge you to present both sides of the question objectively. Unfortunately I have absolutely no experience in game design. I can tell you what I <i>prefer</i> but I just don't feel right creating a <b>"PROs vs CONs List"</b> from my limited perspective of the gameplay designing process. It would be a pretty interesting read if someone with enough of the background to give it a try. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My opinion is to take a few things at a time and make minor tweaks. Observe the results, try to establish how certain tweaks affect the gameplay, what are the patterns between tweaks and gameplay. When enough patterns emerge you can attempt a bunch of major tweaks in one version. In a situation where being wrong isn't fatal you can sometimes learn from even major miscalulations. I think we have established an adequete baseline for the gameplay behavior of pubs and tournaments for this method to be useful.
Enough of me. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"You herd Fantasmo! Bust it down, don't be tha shizzah, and sound-off y'all!"
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> /
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Just wanted to drop by and tickle your gorge.
<u>Public Beta: Minor Tweakage or Major Tweakage?</u>
<i>A few things at a time or everything at once?</i>
What do you think?
I challenge you to present both sides of the question objectively. Unfortunately I have absolutely no experience in game design. I can tell you what I <i>prefer</i> but I just don't feel right creating a <b>"PROs vs CONs List"</b> from my limited perspective of the gameplay designing process. It would be a pretty interesting read if someone with enough of the background to give it a try. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My opinion is to take a few things at a time and make minor tweaks. Observe the results, try to establish how certain tweaks affect the gameplay, what are the patterns between tweaks and gameplay. When enough patterns emerge you can attempt a bunch of major tweaks in one version. In a situation where being wrong isn't fatal you can sometimes learn from even major miscalulations. I think we have established an adequete baseline for the gameplay behavior of pubs and tournaments for this method to be useful.
Enough of me. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"You herd Fantasmo! Bust it down, don't be tha shizzah, and sound-off y'all!"
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> /
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Nice vocab. Oh yeah, I agree with you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
2.0
As people may remember, it had a major overhaul two days before release. It received two last-second rebuilds to try and get the balance a little bit better. But it was without a doubt in my mind, the WORST thing to ever happen to NS. I still want to see NSv2.0z released to the public (what was handed out was 2.0alt-z2), which was exceptionally balanced, and quite fun in my opinion... all about territorial control, capture-and-hold.
The case for major tweakage mostly comes in when a severe design flaw is noted. You have to brainstorm and try new things to get around the limitation, or eliminate the gameplay aspect.
It seems to me the issue of major tweakage and minor tweakage is where you are in the development of the gameplay. (could you sometimes say, "the guesswork of developing the gameplay?" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
If things are near the results you desire proceed slowly and methodically.
If things are far form the result you desire try bigger changes.
So I don't think one method is <i>"better"</i> then the other, they each have there time or place.
IMO it's time for minor tweakout.
Should this be moved to the Public Beta Forums maybe?
In the instance of 3.0, I think Classic in particular still needs a number of major tweaks to address some outstanding issues with the game(some old, some new) before I'd consider it completely ready for release. I can list a bunch of them but that's not what this thread is for. Anything more would just be icing on the cake and I can understand the desire to release, provided we aren't going to be waiting half a year without any major patch activity or anything...
Last I heard Vancouver and San Fransisco was being thrown around.
I don't keep up on the drama enough. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
10 points for the first sentence <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->decided to relocate to?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nicely crafted.
Me too. Ive never seen it, but I'd like to play a version of NS that was billed as "Perfectly Balanced".
I was pretty happy with the rate at which things came pre-unknownworldsentertainment. Few major adjustments with many small tweaks in between.
nicely crafted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was waiting for someone to say;
"Computer Core."
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Vancouver eh... the mountains and the water; skiing and snowboarding during the winter, windsurfing and sea kayaking during the summer, and the women, oh the women. I know because I live there. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Okay back on-topic.
<b>Umbraed Monkey</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was pretty happy with the rate at which things came re-unknownworldsentertainment. Few major adjustments with many small tweaks in between.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guilty again of not being in touch with more NS drama. Wasn't the development of NS handed to a group of trusted dev team members?
<b>Zek</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently the patch release schedule is much too slow to only be doing minor tweaks. What they're doing that takes so long I have no idea since the devs rarely talk to us, but there may or may not be at least one major tweak left with the BUS(or it may not affect gameplay at all, who knows).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously the dev team is opting for the major tweak with the BUS being the "<i>next-big-thing</i>" in the new version. The only thing that scares me is the last time something "<i>big</i>" was gonna bust in a new version it turned out to be grenades.
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with the idea of grenades in NS (a good idea even) but they just aren't great the way they are now and the fact that it didn't help fix any of the nagging problems makes me feel the time spent on adding grens could have been utilized on more important issues. After the major stuff has been taken care then add the icing like grens. Right now I kinda think the grens were kinda poorly executed. (I hate being "<i>negative</i>" but that's honest observation)
Trying to wow people with flashy new features doesn't take away from things in the game that are broken. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Hey, we're all pretty out of it. From what I can tell, Flayra seems to have looked for ONE programmer to take on the development of NS 3.0 and on. From the look of things, it seems like he has yet to find this coder.
Since we've already got a Major tweak (NS3.0b), I think the devs should do a few more minor adjustments, then move on to NS 4.0.
2.0
As people may remember, it had a major overhaul two days before release. It received two last-second rebuilds to try and get the balance a little bit better. But it was without a doubt in my mind, the WORST thing to ever happen to NS. I still want to see NSv2.0z released to the public (what was handed out was 2.0alt-z2), which was exceptionally balanced, and quite fun in my opinion... all about territorial control, capture-and-hold.
The case for major tweakage mostly comes in when a severe design flaw is noted. You have to brainstorm and try new things to get around the limitation, or eliminate the gameplay aspect. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The vetereans lobbyed against it saying static defense is boring. While I agree turret spamathons are boring as hell, 2.0 could've been alot more fun than it was.
Actually, the last I heard pointed at Frisco.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Guilty again of not being in touch with more NS drama. Wasn't the development of NS handed to a group of trusted dev team members?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As usual for non-commercial games, it's difficult to give a definite statement regarding the team, but as of now, we have Cagey taking over big amounts of the coding (especially the bugfixes) - Joev would've helped more, but his current private situation leaves him with understandeably little interest in NS. It's obvious that UWE and its needs and the design of NS are too much work for a single person, and I know Charlie has a number of solutions on his mind, but which it'll be, I can not say.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As usual for non-commercial games, it's difficult to give a definite statement regarding the team, but as of now, we have Cagey taking over big amounts of the coding (especially the bugfixes) - Joev would've helped more, but his current private situation leaves him with understandeably little interest in NS. It's obvious that UWE and its needs and the design of NS are too much work for a single person, and I know Charlie has a number of solutions on his mind, but which it'll be, I can not say.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks Nem that was a nice little status update of situation behind-the-scenes. Looks like NS is in a state of transition.
Is Cagey taking over the design/coding process or just being the #2 man to Flay helping him code and debug? Is the BUS Cagey's baby with Flay's approval for implimentation?
Oh the questions I've got a million!
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->