<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+May 26 2004, 03:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ May 26 2004, 03:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My beef with the happy-hopper marines isn't so much the knockback bug (as that's getting fixed) but just that it looks retarded.
I think marines that jump more than say four times in 3 seconds oughta be given big fluffy pink ears and a little cotton-tail on their model until they die. You wanna be the easter bunny? You might as well look the part. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thats a weird idea for a model 0.o
<!--QuoteBegin-Maveric+May 25 2004, 07:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maveric @ May 25 2004, 07:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jumping once to dodge a attack is a fair way to do things. It gives players with skill the ability to effectively MAKE the alien do 1 more attack to kill you. However, jumping EVERY time dodging NEARLY EVERY attack the aliens make is, if you'll think about this one, total bull.
Think of jumping in NS like Evasion in Warcraft 3.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt... but it provides a VERY small chance that it will work, but it CAN save your character. Problem is is that NS's "Evasion" has a 75% AND HIGHER evasion rate. WarCraft 3's evasion rate is, at best, 60%. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
1. You don't passively evade in NS. 2. (Same as number one, but worth re-emphasizing) It takes a large amount of personal skill to dodge well. 3. (Same as number one, but worth re-emphasizing) No one is dodging for you, nor is 75% dodging an in-game feature. 4. You just took a hard-coded aspect of WC3 and tried to apply it to something that can *only* be done by personal decision, choice, and action.
<!--QuoteBegin-Salvation+May 26 2004, 02:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Salvation @ May 26 2004, 02:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cereal_KillR+May 25 2004, 04:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ May 25 2004, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well bh could be removed for aliens just like as marines. it's been SAID that it was kept intentionally. I don't know how the overjumping thing could be countered except by a horrible system like a stamina bar... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> it was kept, it balances the game and skulks look like they could do it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
as for marines doing that, its a habbit to stay alive, stop missing them, they still die <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah but I'd think marines shouldn't be able to jump 3 times in a row while shooting and carrying heavy weaponry and being bitten by a mad space dog.
Knockback in the air is considered a bug by the dev team. The current level of knockback is made with friction in mind - that of the ground. They are trying to fix it so a marine does *not* jump accross the room when bit in the air. Aparently, the half life engine doesn't allow otherwise, so thats why it hasn't straight out been fixed. They are trying to cobble together a hack into the engine to make it work, but they don't know how successfull this will be. This also goes to the onos flinging marines accross the room for no damage.
Just don't knockback marines that are in the air and hit two birds with one stone. Marines can still jump to avoid attacks, but once they're bitten, they wont teleport.
(Note: The following is my personal opinion. It represents in no way, shape, or other form the opinion of the dev team.)
I'm going to drag this straight into the ever-present abyss of 'atmosphere vs. competitve qualities'-debates, but I for mine would like to see marine <i>jumping</i> removed. That's right, no stamnia bar, cut the whole movement type and maybe put mantling in as a replacement. Why do I think so?
Imagine the corridor of a delerict spaceship. A flickering lighttube casts more shadows than actual light on a heavily demolished area full of steam from leaking pipes. A door opens with a pneumatic hiss, and three heavily armed figures edge into the hallway. Suddenly, two shadws detach themselves from the walls and hurl themselves at the humans. The marines start jumping in circles and spraying their ammo through the whole room. Now, I ask you: What is wrong with this picture?
I honestly don't really care whether marine jump-dodging can be countered by an equally skilled skulk, it is just not the way this group is - in my perception - supposed to dodge an attack. Ducking, searching cover, sidesteps - <i>yes</i>. Hauling themselves, their equipment and armor through the air - <i>no</i>. It ruins the suspense, and is thus nothing I want to see in NS, it's as easy as that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+May 26 2004, 02:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ May 26 2004, 02:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (Note: The following is my personal opinion. It represents in no way, shape, or other form the opinion of the dev team.)
I'm going to drag this straight into the ever-present abyss of 'atmosphere vs. competitve qualities'-debates, but I for mine would like to see marine <i>jumping</i> removed. That's right, no stamnia bar, cut the whole movement type and maybe put mantling in as a replacement. Why do I think so?
Imagine the corridor of a delerict spaceship. A flickering lighttube casts more shadows than actual light on a heavily demolished area full of steam from leaking pipes. A door opens with a pneumatic hiss, and three heavily armed figures edge into the hallway. Suddenly, two shadws detach themselves from the walls and hurl themselves at the humans. The marines start jumping in circles and spraying their ammo through the whole room. Now, I ask you: What is wrong with this picture?
I honestly don't really care whether marine jump-dodging can be countered by an equally skilled skulk, it is just not the way this group is - in my perception - supposed to dodge an attack. Ducking, searching cover, sidesteps - <i>yes</i>. Hauling themselves, their equipment and armor through the air - <i>no</i>. It ruins the suspense, and is thus nothing I want to see in NS, it's as easy as that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> AMEN brother !!!!!!!!
I think it would be nicest to have marines that are allowed to hop freely as much as they want without slowdown but with removed speed increase from gliding, airacceleration fix so they can't gain speed from strafe jumping(does not alter the feel of strafe jumping by itself) and removed knockback.
If jumping wasn't such a damned effective way of dodging aliens it wouldn't be used so much.
Should we remove all the maps except agora and nancy too then, Nem? Sure, that atmosphere sounds nice, but this is a multiplayer game. Unless it's an sp game ( hard to still), or a movie, it's next to impossible to achieve that kind of atmosphere.
Once knockback is removed, marine jumping won't help that much. It's good for jumping on a platform or something else to escape an alien, but you won't hover in the air for 5 seconds while shooting down on a skulk.
If it's a skulk that simply holds down the fire button while looking at someones feet, a person who can time their jumps should win. As of right now, once a skulk gets a bite in, even if the person is jumping ( and no knockback occurs) their view is distorted and unless a skulk is on their level, they have to look around or look down to find them.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+May 26 2004, 08:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ May 26 2004, 08:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Should we remove all the maps except agora and nancy too then, Nem? Sure, that atmosphere sounds nice, but this is a multiplayer game. Unless it's an sp game ( hard to still), or a movie, it's next to impossible to achieve that kind of atmosphere. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't quite follow your argumentation here. I for mine consider all our maps pretty atmospheric, albeit in varying ways, and just because a movie-like atmosphere can't be maintained throughout a game, this doesn't have to mean that one shouldn't <i>try</i> for it.
Nemesis Zero: Competitive players don't care much at all for atmosphere. So do we arrange things for you? Or them? Is your point of view more important than theirs?
<!--QuoteBegin-cocacolaa+May 26 2004, 05:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cocacolaa @ May 26 2004, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nemesis Zero: Competitive players don't care much at all for atmosphere. So do we arrange things for you? Or them? Is your point of view more important than theirs? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Theres the problem. Competative find ways to give themselves the upper hand in a game (example: Hopping around like a bunny loaded up on sugar while shooting crazily around a room hoping to kill the skulk/Alien) and as more and more people see its usefulness, they use it. Its competative players that ruin the atmosphere of games.
Anyhow, I as a person I'm more of a atmosphere type person. So I would like to see some sort of "preventention" but not get rid of marine jumping. Because as Nemesis said in one of his posts. When 2 skulks ambushing a few marines, I highly doubt the marines would be hopping all over the place and shooting like madmen. It doesn't seem right. And for 1 i know for a fact, if Flayra removes the "Marine hopping whever he sees a skulk" deal he would be flamed, spammed, and whined to from the competative players to change it back. So even though im making an attempt to unite the public to look more toward the Atmospheric type side which most likely not work, I'm also trying to unite the players who want the game to be the way its meant to be played. If you want to find ways to give yourself the upper hand against another player with the same skill level, Go back to playing regular HL DM games. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So even though im making an attempt to unite the public to look more toward the Atmospheric type side which most likely not work, I'm also trying to unite the players who want the game to be the way its meant to be played.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need to add a few more IMO's. I certainly don't think the game is meant to be very atmospheric, you loose that feeling after playing for like a week anyway, allmost no matter what you do. I don't find AVP1-2 single player missions atmospheric at all now because I realise how stuff works, there's no mystery and few surprises left, dieing is a "so what? I'll just press the load button"-experience even if you save sparingly.
With the exception of exploiting bugs you are supposed to find ways to gain an advantage, that is a big part of what skill is in any game and where most of the fun is at. How each weapon is best used , how to dance around with a skulk, getting pubbers to stick in groups and weld each other, how to best avoid getting devoured or stomped, how to block fades when they really need to leave etc. You can't well say that your skilled if you refuse to make use of the tools you are given, that's just being dumb. I wouldn't be very skilled if I refuse to use anything but the knife and parasite even if I was really really good at using them now would I?
If you really insist on an atmospheric game stick to single player stuff, a well made SP is certainly atmospheric and creepy for longer.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+May 26 2004, 02:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ May 26 2004, 02:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (Note: The following is my personal opinion. It represents in no way, shape, or other form the opinion of the dev team.)
I'm going to drag this straight into the ever-present abyss of 'atmosphere vs. competitve qualities'-debates, but I for mine would like to see marine <i>jumping</i> removed. That's right, no stamnia bar, cut the whole movement type and maybe put mantling in as a replacement. Why do I think so?
Imagine the corridor of a delerict spaceship. A flickering lighttube casts more shadows than actual light on a heavily demolished area full of steam from leaking pipes. A door opens with a pneumatic hiss, and three heavily armed figures edge into the hallway. Suddenly, two shadws detach themselves from the walls and hurl themselves at the humans. The marines start jumping in circles and spraying their ammo through the whole room. Now, I ask you: What is wrong with this picture?
I honestly don't really care whether marine jump-dodging can be countered by an equally skilled skulk, it is just not the way this group is - in my perception - supposed to dodge an attack. Ducking, searching cover, sidesteps - <i>yes</i>. Hauling themselves, their equipment and armor through the air - <i>no</i>. It ruins the suspense, and is thus nothing I want to see in NS, it's as easy as that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I absolutly agree with you from a combat prespective, jumping should be a useless combat tactic. My one concern would be that complealy removing jumping would compleatly distroy the marines location accessability to hundreds of map locations that really should be accessable from a tactical prospective (like behind every railing in the game), plus 90% of vents would be purely inaccessable). As well, what would happen to the jetpacks? I like the atmosphere of the whole res node rush anyways, leaping over railings, swinging the crosshairs franticly looking for any suspicions movements, just get to your location as fast as friggin possible.
I would like to see either a compleat inability for a marine to use his weapon while in the air, or a massive accuracy loss that would make 90% of combat jumps compleatly useless either way (think awp while jumping in CS). The obvious problems with that however becomes the jetpack, "you can't shoot worth nuts when you jump off the ground, but shoot while flying a rocket propelled backpack? No problem!", just seems kinda wierd.
Well, jumping isn't the problem, it's that a skulk somehow has the ability to bite a marine and cause them to fly 10ft away. If you bite something does it automatically get thrown back? I don't think so, marines shouldn't get knocked back at ALL, in the air or while on the ground.
I totally agree that atmosphere should prevail on competitive play. It's a GAME, it's a freakin fight between marines and scary invading aliens... Not a "jump around and crank up that gamma to get the advantage" effect we're looking for. Make the game scary, make those marines scared of those mad dogs jumping from WALL to WALL (yes they should jump from surface to surface rather than bh. It's evasive and scary...) Turn that gamma down... Skulks can't hide so well at all; that lighttorch should be used. I also agree with removing jumping. Add in eventually a "climb obstacle" action button to go over a small ledge. And if marines can't jump, they can't fly back so much anymore <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Of course, most of this can't be done on HL1 so let's wait and hope
I think the whole solution is to add cool animations to the marine jumping, so hes flipping all over the place with the alien biting at him and it makes for really cool anime style battles..
Err, its fine how it is. Hobojoe and Romano sumed it all up, and I myself can garentee that you have more fun being able to jump around like you can now.
i put some thought into this....why not make the skulk bite go a little more "up"?
current skulk bite goes straight ahead of him, like a bullet that only has a range of 1 foot.....why not make the bite have the same width, bit more height? i dont know exactly how to explain it, maybe a dev might have a clue at what im getting at. basically, look at the fade. it's claws swipe down, and jumping with a fade is practically suicide. make it so rines can still bunny hop like crack **** all they want, but it'll just get em killed.
hmmm emoticons are my friend!
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> -- current skulk bite.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> /- something like that, cept less extreme.....
thats as best i can explain it.....i been up for 2 days straight with nothing but a trusty 2ltr of coke as my only companion.
I wish knockback could be taken out. When I bite a rine, he jumps up, flys back 10 ft, then I have to run up AGAIN and try to bite him..and it's not like a rare thing, BUT ALL THE FVCKING TIME! It's now an exploit, simple as that. When it was a rare thing that just happened, no big deal, but the first thing rines do now is jump when a skulk is about to nail them. So goddam lame. Maybe make skulks 25% faster? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nem0, your point is a good one. Now unlike most of us around here, you can grab Flayra's ear. So if you please, could you ask him why marines are able to hop like they do? There must be a reason.
@ Todd im pretty sure that the skulk bite has a range to its left / right / up / down. I frequently bite Rines that are at the periphery of my vision. But I got no idea about the range.
Bunnyhoppin in general has its "bitter" side for me as i experienced the backside of Bunnyhopping when this came up in cs (the scripts im talkin about, the 0.1% that could do it without a script were no problem). <u>My PERSONAL view on this:</u> <i>As Bhopping is considered an exploit of the HL engine, i think it is to be considered an exploit in all games using that engine. The additional speed could have been put in the game in another way than to make it only available for freakish (in the sense of spending hours in trainin to Bhop) / scripting (is there already a bhop script 4 ns? dont think so) players. </i>like: skulks speed up when running (as lerk does) and gain speed the longer they run without stoppin/hoppin/bitin. Changin direction should then be harder at higher speed as well (would be more realistic too)
as for the rines jumpin like mad... thats mostly when u come close enough to a single rine. A group of rines should (and does often enough even on pubs) just hold its position (or draw back orderly when the pressure of the incoming kharaa is to great).
I like a lot of the non-jumping ideas, you do need a way of letting the marines move etc though, marines with equipment would be able to jump - just not very well from standing/walking and when jumping onto a ledge etc or over railings there would be no chance for gun usage (i'd imagine it'd be waved by their side of put on back or something rather than aimed carefully). so my personal preferance for a semi solution is to make the marines very inaccurate while in the air. someone above said it then makes jetpacks silly (something about why be able to shoot there but not while jumping) so make it inaccurate to shoot while in the air too, make the jp a tool for getting out of sticky situations, or for manouvering, not for becoming a flying weapon. even if you have to make them cheap and add manouverablilty to the jp to make up for it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> maybe split it up into 3 versions - combat for ppl who like shooting stuff, ns as it is except with no dark bits and built in bunnyhopping (instead of walking) and ns 'atmospheric' for people who want to play a nice fun game about aliens? maybe thats taking it too far. sorry for waffling
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As Bhopping is considered an exploit of the HL engine, i think it is to be considered an exploit in all games using that engine<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not acctually in the engine, it's in the MOD code. All MODs that use the same code base(HLDM) without modifications to physics code excibite this behavior but it is by no means in the hl.exe, the magic happens in pm_shared.c and you get full access to all physics behaviours in the game in this file.
Bunnyhopping can be removed sensibly with ease if you just examine the pm_airaccelerate function. Pseudo code for an allmost complete(you can still keep any speed you have by repeated jumping but not gain any from strafe jumping, this to can be fixed easily if you want to) fix is:
*If player speed is less than 10% of class run original code.(this allows getting up on boxes from a standstill)
*Else run the original code and if any speed was gained crop the horisontal portion of the velocity vector down so your speed is maintained.(this allows changing direction and air-braking)
Then we might want to stop repeted jumping to keep speed gained from leap or gliding. There are 2 very simple ways to do this that directly spring to mind:
*When player jumps, crop down the horisontal velocity to the max running speed for your class.
or
*When player lands unconditionally slow them down by say 10%.
Flayra and Max have made bunnyhopping better in NS not worse, they removed the penalty that cropped your velocity to class speed when exceeding 170% class speed and jumping.
Comments
I think marines that jump more than say four times in 3 seconds oughta be given big fluffy pink ears and a little cotton-tail on their model until they die. You wanna be the easter bunny? You might as well look the part. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats a weird idea for a model 0.o
Think of jumping in NS like Evasion in Warcraft 3.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt... but it provides a VERY small chance that it will work, but it CAN save your character. Problem is is that NS's "Evasion" has a 75% AND HIGHER evasion rate. WarCraft 3's evasion rate is, at best, 60%. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
1. You don't passively evade in NS.
2. (Same as number one, but worth re-emphasizing) It takes a large amount of personal skill to dodge well.
3. (Same as number one, but worth re-emphasizing) No one is dodging for you, nor is 75% dodging an in-game feature.
4. You just took a hard-coded aspect of WC3 and tried to apply it to something that can *only* be done by personal decision, choice, and action.
I'm done here.
it was kept, it balances the game and skulks look like they could do it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
as for marines doing that, its a habbit to stay alive, stop missing them, they still die <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah but I'd think marines shouldn't be able to jump 3 times in a row while shooting and carrying heavy weaponry and being bitten by a mad space dog.
(it's nanite emergency teleport, not knockback).
I'm going to drag this straight into the ever-present abyss of 'atmosphere vs. competitve qualities'-debates, but I for mine would like to see marine <i>jumping</i> removed. That's right, no stamnia bar, cut the whole movement type and maybe put mantling in as a replacement. Why do I think so?
Imagine the corridor of a delerict spaceship. A flickering lighttube casts more shadows than actual light on a heavily demolished area full of steam from leaking pipes. A door opens with a pneumatic hiss, and three heavily armed figures edge into the hallway.
Suddenly, two shadws detach themselves from the walls and hurl themselves at the humans.
The marines start jumping in circles and spraying their ammo through the whole room.
Now, I ask you: What is wrong with this picture?
I honestly don't really care whether marine jump-dodging can be countered by an equally skilled skulk, it is just not the way this group is - in my perception - supposed to dodge an attack. Ducking, searching cover, sidesteps - <i>yes</i>. Hauling themselves, their equipment and armor through the air - <i>no</i>. It ruins the suspense, and is thus nothing I want to see in NS, it's as easy as that.
I'm going to drag this straight into the ever-present abyss of 'atmosphere vs. competitve qualities'-debates, but I for mine would like to see marine <i>jumping</i> removed. That's right, no stamnia bar, cut the whole movement type and maybe put mantling in as a replacement. Why do I think so?
Imagine the corridor of a delerict spaceship. A flickering lighttube casts more shadows than actual light on a heavily demolished area full of steam from leaking pipes. A door opens with a pneumatic hiss, and three heavily armed figures edge into the hallway.
Suddenly, two shadws detach themselves from the walls and hurl themselves at the humans.
The marines start jumping in circles and spraying their ammo through the whole room.
Now, I ask you: What is wrong with this picture?
I honestly don't really care whether marine jump-dodging can be countered by an equally skilled skulk, it is just not the way this group is - in my perception - supposed to dodge an attack. Ducking, searching cover, sidesteps - <i>yes</i>. Hauling themselves, their equipment and armor through the air - <i>no</i>. It ruins the suspense, and is thus nothing I want to see in NS, it's as easy as that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
AMEN brother !!!!!!!!
If jumping wasn't such a damned effective way of dodging aliens it wouldn't be used so much.
Once knockback is removed, marine jumping won't help that much. It's good for jumping on a platform or something else to escape an alien, but you won't hover in the air for 5 seconds while shooting down on a skulk.
If it's a skulk that simply holds down the fire button while looking at someones feet, a person who can time their jumps should win. As of right now, once a skulk gets a bite in, even if the person is jumping ( and no knockback occurs) their view is distorted and unless a skulk is on their level, they have to look around or look down to find them.
I can't quite follow your argumentation here. I for mine consider all our maps pretty atmospheric, albeit in varying ways, and just because a movie-like atmosphere can't be maintained throughout a game, this doesn't have to mean that one shouldn't <i>try</i> for it.
Nemesis Zero: Competitive players don't care much at all for atmosphere. So do we arrange things for you? Or them? Is your point of view more important than theirs?
You would be able to remove the ability for the skulk to look up and down, since looking forward will be all you need to do in order to hit a marine.
And you don't need to look up a wall to climb it either, you can just use the +moveup command.
Theres the problem. Competative find ways to give themselves the upper hand in a game (example: Hopping around like a bunny loaded up on sugar while shooting crazily around a room hoping to kill the skulk/Alien) and as more and more people see its usefulness, they use it. Its competative players that ruin the atmosphere of games.
Anyhow, I as a person I'm more of a atmosphere type person. So I would like to see some sort of "preventention" but not get rid of marine jumping. Because as Nemesis said in one of his posts. When 2 skulks ambushing a few marines, I highly doubt the marines would be hopping all over the place and shooting like madmen. It doesn't seem right. And for 1 i know for a fact, if Flayra removes the "Marine hopping whever he sees a skulk" deal he would be flamed, spammed, and whined to from the competative players to change it back. So even though im making an attempt to unite the public to look more toward the Atmospheric type side which most likely not work, I'm also trying to unite the players who want the game to be the way its meant to be played. If you want to find ways to give yourself the upper hand against another player with the same skill level, Go back to playing regular HL DM games. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You need to add a few more IMO's. I certainly don't think the game is meant to be very atmospheric, you loose that feeling after playing for like a week anyway, allmost no matter what you do. I don't find AVP1-2 single player missions atmospheric at all now because I realise how stuff works, there's no mystery and few surprises left, dieing is a "so what? I'll just press the load button"-experience even if you save sparingly.
With the exception of exploiting bugs you are supposed to find ways to gain an advantage, that is a big part of what skill is in any game and where most of the fun is at. How each weapon is best used , how to dance around with a skulk, getting pubbers to stick in groups and weld each other, how to best avoid getting devoured or stomped, how to block fades when they really need to leave etc. You can't well say that your skilled if you refuse to make use of the tools you are given, that's just being dumb. I wouldn't be very skilled if I refuse to use anything but the knife and parasite even if I was really really good at using them now would I?
If you really insist on an atmospheric game stick to single player stuff, a well made SP is certainly atmospheric and creepy for longer.
I personally think tfc is way better then cs will ever be!
I'm going to drag this straight into the ever-present abyss of 'atmosphere vs. competitve qualities'-debates, but I for mine would like to see marine <i>jumping</i> removed. That's right, no stamnia bar, cut the whole movement type and maybe put mantling in as a replacement. Why do I think so?
Imagine the corridor of a delerict spaceship. A flickering lighttube casts more shadows than actual light on a heavily demolished area full of steam from leaking pipes. A door opens with a pneumatic hiss, and three heavily armed figures edge into the hallway.
Suddenly, two shadws detach themselves from the walls and hurl themselves at the humans.
The marines start jumping in circles and spraying their ammo through the whole room.
Now, I ask you: What is wrong with this picture?
I honestly don't really care whether marine jump-dodging can be countered by an equally skilled skulk, it is just not the way this group is - in my perception - supposed to dodge an attack. Ducking, searching cover, sidesteps - <i>yes</i>. Hauling themselves, their equipment and armor through the air - <i>no</i>. It ruins the suspense, and is thus nothing I want to see in NS, it's as easy as that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutly agree with you from a combat prespective, jumping should be a useless combat tactic. My one concern would be that complealy removing jumping would compleatly distroy the marines location accessability to hundreds of map locations that really should be accessable from a tactical prospective (like behind every railing in the game), plus 90% of vents would be purely inaccessable). As well, what would happen to the jetpacks? I like the atmosphere of the whole res node rush anyways, leaping over railings, swinging the crosshairs franticly looking for any suspicions movements, just get to your location as fast as friggin possible.
I would like to see either a compleat inability for a marine to use his weapon while in the air, or a massive accuracy loss that would make 90% of combat jumps compleatly useless either way (think awp while jumping in CS). The obvious problems with that however becomes the jetpack, "you can't shoot worth nuts when you jump off the ground, but shoot while flying a rocket propelled backpack? No problem!", just seems kinda wierd.
Turn that gamma down... Skulks can't hide so well at all; that lighttorch should be used. I also agree with removing jumping. Add in eventually a "climb obstacle" action button to go over a small ledge. And if marines can't jump, they can't fly back so much anymore <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Of course, most of this can't be done on HL1 so let's wait and hope
Err, its fine how it is. Hobojoe and Romano sumed it all up, and I myself can garentee that you have more fun being able to jump around like you can now.
current skulk bite goes straight ahead of him, like a bullet that only has a range of 1 foot.....why not make the bite have the same width, bit more height? i dont know exactly how to explain it, maybe a dev might have a clue at what im getting at. basically, look at the fade. it's claws swipe down, and jumping with a fade is practically suicide. make it so rines can still bunny hop like crack **** all they want, but it'll just get em killed.
hmmm emoticons are my friend!
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> -- current skulk bite.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> /- something like that, cept less extreme.....
thats as best i can explain it.....i been up for 2 days straight with nothing but a trusty 2ltr of coke as my only companion.
now...to command on brys....
@ Todd
im pretty sure that the skulk bite has a range to its left / right / up / down.
I frequently bite Rines that are at the periphery of my vision. But I got no idea about the range.
Bunnyhoppin in general has its "bitter" side for me as i experienced the backside of Bunnyhopping when this came up in cs (the scripts im talkin about, the 0.1% that could do it without a script were no problem).
<u>My PERSONAL view on this:</u> <i>As Bhopping is considered an exploit of the HL engine, i think it is to be considered an exploit in all games using that engine. The additional speed could have been put in the game in another way than to make it only available for freakish (in the sense of spending hours in trainin to Bhop) / scripting (is there already a bhop script 4 ns? dont think so) players. </i>like: skulks speed up when running (as lerk does) and gain speed the longer they run without stoppin/hoppin/bitin. Changin direction should then be harder at higher speed as well (would be more realistic too)
as for the rines jumpin like mad... thats mostly when u come close enough to a single rine. A group of rines should (and does often enough even on pubs) just hold its position (or draw back orderly when the pressure of the incoming kharaa is to great).
Regards
Deagle
even if you have to make them cheap and add manouverablilty to the jp to make up for it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
maybe split it up into 3 versions - combat for ppl who like shooting stuff, ns as it is except with no dark bits and built in bunnyhopping (instead of walking) and ns 'atmospheric' for people who want to play a nice fun game about aliens?
maybe thats taking it too far.
sorry for waffling
It's not acctually in the engine, it's in the MOD code. All MODs that use the same code base(HLDM) without modifications to physics code excibite this behavior but it is by no means in the hl.exe, the magic happens in pm_shared.c and you get full access to all physics behaviours in the game in this file.
Bunnyhopping can be removed sensibly with ease if you just examine the pm_airaccelerate function. Pseudo code for an allmost complete(you can still keep any speed you have by repeated jumping but not gain any from strafe jumping, this to can be fixed easily if you want to) fix is:
*If player speed is less than 10% of class run original code.(this allows getting up on boxes from a standstill)
*Else run the original code and if any speed was gained crop the horisontal portion of the velocity vector down so your speed is maintained.(this allows changing direction and air-braking)
Then we might want to stop repeted jumping to keep speed gained from leap or gliding. There are 2 very simple ways to do this that directly spring to mind:
*When player jumps, crop down the horisontal velocity to the max running speed for your class.
or
*When player lands unconditionally slow them down by say 10%.
Flayra and Max have made bunnyhopping better in NS not worse, they removed the penalty that cropped your velocity to class speed when exceeding 170% class speed and jumping.