An alien's lament
geldonyetich
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2537Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2537Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Defencive imbalance is not just economy</div>So far as I can tell from my 10-15 hours of gameplay, Natural Selection only has one real flaw to the gameplay, and that's in the extreme difference in effectiveness of the defences between the two sides.
When I'm playing a Marine, the alien defences are easy enough to deal with. If you run into an alien offencive chamber, just point your starting rifle at it and unload a full clip from the starting gun into it, no more turret. You don't even need to be in the line of sight of the offencive chamber, those big fat offencive chambers are easy to hit around corners without them being able to shoot at you too. Not that it's that big a deal being in LOS of them anyway, because their projectiles are slow, easy to dodge, and don't do much damage. With 350 rounds being toted around, provided an alien doesn't get me first, that's 7 offencive chambers that are as good as gone. Defencive chambers can buff up the defences a bit on the turrets, but that usually just means I have to reload and go through a half of the next chip to finish the job.
Eventually as a marine I get bigger machine guns or grenades which can mow down any alien defences I'm likely to encounter even easier than the starting gun. In most cases, it's not really neccessary - a starting marine with any kind of skill can take down two alien offencive chambers very easily with his starting machine gun alone. All this seems strange when you consider there's actually an enforced limit for alien offencive chambers in a certain proximity but there is none for marine turrets. The only time the alien defences are any trouble at all is if there happens to be a skilled Gorge on the other side firing webbing or healing what I'm trying to kill (and that's no longer a problem once I have bigger explosive weaponry).
As an alien, the enemy defences are far tougher. Unlike the aliens, there doesn't seem to be any real limit to how many turrets can be plopped down. There is a small window of oppertunity before the turret homes in your alien that you can use to skirt around it, but a frontal attack is usually suicide. The big problem is this: Aliens simply don't have nearly as effective of weapons to deal with turrets. Lets go through the entire alien arsenal:
<b>Skulks</b> I've found to be relatively worthless against turrets - attack 1 can inflict damge formidable damage, but gets them killed too quickly. Attack 2 doesn't damage the turret (although marking it is handy), attack 3 doesn't do enough damage, and attack 4 doesn't seem to do much damage to the turrets - 200 damage is like 25%-50% of the turret's health.
<b>Gorge</b> are even worse against turrets, at least at the start. Attack 1 is not really an effective attack either against soldiers or turrets, Attack 2 and 3 are not capable of damaging. Attack 4's beebles seem to be quickly hewed down by turret rounds - even their xenocide explosions seem to make very little difference.
<b>Lurk</b> are the cheapest aliens to have even something close to resembling the ease Marines have at dealing with turrets. Attack 1 is suicidal enough, but Attack 2 gives them finally a ranged attack that can be used around corners to avoid being attacked back. Only problem is that Attack 2 barely scratches the turrets - it takes about a minute and a half to two minutes of constant fire to bring down a single sentry turret (compared to a marine taking down an alien offencive chamber in 10 seconds flat). Attack 3 can help against turrets since it lessens the bullets effectiveness. Haven't tried attack 4 against turrets - I imagine it could be moderately effective, but dangerous to employ.
<b>Fade</b> can be fairly effective against turrets, but still not nearly enough. Weapon 1 does some good damage but they only have enough armor to maybe take down one or two of them before they're toast - quite an expencive exchange. Weapon 2 damages turrets well enough, but it still takes a considerable amount of time (1-2 minutes) to actually remove a turret with it. Weapon 3 isn't a weapon. Weapon 4 I've found to be the most effective weapon aliens have against turrets. It still takes a considerable amount of time (about a minute) for acid bile to remove turrets, but it does some fairly good damage.
<b>Othos</b> are currently not worth the cash over a fade when it comes to dealing with those pesky marine defences. Their weapon 1 melee attack can take down turrets quite well with 3 swipes (although I have run into an odd situation in which at times it doesn't seem to damage the turret at all). The weapon 3 charge, as everybody should know by now, is supposed to be able to do "incredible" damage, but I sure haven't seen it. Apaprently the charge's structural damage is entirely missing from the game, removing what would likely be the aliens best weapon against defencive urrets entirely! Weapon 2 and 4 are not really capable of damaging turrets.
Look at the entire alien force's attacks, and you see there's only a very few effective weapons against turrets, most of them requiring at least two hives, and each one is either dangerous to use or takes a long time to remove each turret. This wouldn't be so much of a problem except for when you compare it to how weak the aliens offencive chambers are in comparison.
I've been through several games of Natural Selection now where the marines pretty much just bullied their way through the level, advancing ground with turrets instead of trying to fight. True, they would not have had a very easy time doing so if the economies were not being messed up by some of the server admins. However, I hope that this message at least establishes that a messed up economy only magnifies the problem: The aliens' defences are absolutely screwed compared to the extreme potency of the marine's defences - they're much easier to take out and ineffective at dealing damage to invaders.
I think the situation would be much more bearable if either the alien defences were made more durable or the alien offence (especially 1 or 2 hive) was more capable of taking out unguarded human turrets.
When I'm playing a Marine, the alien defences are easy enough to deal with. If you run into an alien offencive chamber, just point your starting rifle at it and unload a full clip from the starting gun into it, no more turret. You don't even need to be in the line of sight of the offencive chamber, those big fat offencive chambers are easy to hit around corners without them being able to shoot at you too. Not that it's that big a deal being in LOS of them anyway, because their projectiles are slow, easy to dodge, and don't do much damage. With 350 rounds being toted around, provided an alien doesn't get me first, that's 7 offencive chambers that are as good as gone. Defencive chambers can buff up the defences a bit on the turrets, but that usually just means I have to reload and go through a half of the next chip to finish the job.
Eventually as a marine I get bigger machine guns or grenades which can mow down any alien defences I'm likely to encounter even easier than the starting gun. In most cases, it's not really neccessary - a starting marine with any kind of skill can take down two alien offencive chambers very easily with his starting machine gun alone. All this seems strange when you consider there's actually an enforced limit for alien offencive chambers in a certain proximity but there is none for marine turrets. The only time the alien defences are any trouble at all is if there happens to be a skilled Gorge on the other side firing webbing or healing what I'm trying to kill (and that's no longer a problem once I have bigger explosive weaponry).
As an alien, the enemy defences are far tougher. Unlike the aliens, there doesn't seem to be any real limit to how many turrets can be plopped down. There is a small window of oppertunity before the turret homes in your alien that you can use to skirt around it, but a frontal attack is usually suicide. The big problem is this: Aliens simply don't have nearly as effective of weapons to deal with turrets. Lets go through the entire alien arsenal:
<b>Skulks</b> I've found to be relatively worthless against turrets - attack 1 can inflict damge formidable damage, but gets them killed too quickly. Attack 2 doesn't damage the turret (although marking it is handy), attack 3 doesn't do enough damage, and attack 4 doesn't seem to do much damage to the turrets - 200 damage is like 25%-50% of the turret's health.
<b>Gorge</b> are even worse against turrets, at least at the start. Attack 1 is not really an effective attack either against soldiers or turrets, Attack 2 and 3 are not capable of damaging. Attack 4's beebles seem to be quickly hewed down by turret rounds - even their xenocide explosions seem to make very little difference.
<b>Lurk</b> are the cheapest aliens to have even something close to resembling the ease Marines have at dealing with turrets. Attack 1 is suicidal enough, but Attack 2 gives them finally a ranged attack that can be used around corners to avoid being attacked back. Only problem is that Attack 2 barely scratches the turrets - it takes about a minute and a half to two minutes of constant fire to bring down a single sentry turret (compared to a marine taking down an alien offencive chamber in 10 seconds flat). Attack 3 can help against turrets since it lessens the bullets effectiveness. Haven't tried attack 4 against turrets - I imagine it could be moderately effective, but dangerous to employ.
<b>Fade</b> can be fairly effective against turrets, but still not nearly enough. Weapon 1 does some good damage but they only have enough armor to maybe take down one or two of them before they're toast - quite an expencive exchange. Weapon 2 damages turrets well enough, but it still takes a considerable amount of time (1-2 minutes) to actually remove a turret with it. Weapon 3 isn't a weapon. Weapon 4 I've found to be the most effective weapon aliens have against turrets. It still takes a considerable amount of time (about a minute) for acid bile to remove turrets, but it does some fairly good damage.
<b>Othos</b> are currently not worth the cash over a fade when it comes to dealing with those pesky marine defences. Their weapon 1 melee attack can take down turrets quite well with 3 swipes (although I have run into an odd situation in which at times it doesn't seem to damage the turret at all). The weapon 3 charge, as everybody should know by now, is supposed to be able to do "incredible" damage, but I sure haven't seen it. Apaprently the charge's structural damage is entirely missing from the game, removing what would likely be the aliens best weapon against defencive urrets entirely! Weapon 2 and 4 are not really capable of damaging turrets.
Look at the entire alien force's attacks, and you see there's only a very few effective weapons against turrets, most of them requiring at least two hives, and each one is either dangerous to use or takes a long time to remove each turret. This wouldn't be so much of a problem except for when you compare it to how weak the aliens offencive chambers are in comparison.
I've been through several games of Natural Selection now where the marines pretty much just bullied their way through the level, advancing ground with turrets instead of trying to fight. True, they would not have had a very easy time doing so if the economies were not being messed up by some of the server admins. However, I hope that this message at least establishes that a messed up economy only magnifies the problem: The aliens' defences are absolutely screwed compared to the extreme potency of the marine's defences - they're much easier to take out and ineffective at dealing damage to invaders.
I think the situation would be much more bearable if either the alien defences were made more durable or the alien offence (especially 1 or 2 hive) was more capable of taking out unguarded human turrets.
Comments
Lerk umbra cloud practicly disables turrets for the length of the cloud, get a buddy to tag along and the turrets are alien fodder.
Onos primal scream combined with its gore attack kills turrets quickly
basicly lerk+ onos or fade wastes turrets.
Also the main problem is the aliens try to take them out alone, even a couple of skulks can take out turrets if they rush at the same time.
Lastly the marine turrets are stronger because you need to set up turret factories to power them while aliens can build anywhere and very quickly. also the aliens can build def chambers which heal
You didn't play the game I did last night though, it was pathetic. Apparently the resoruces were jacked through roof because the marines were laying down turrets in every square inch of the map they could.
Lerk umbra cloud practicly disables turrets for the length of the cloud, get a buddy to tag along and the turrets are alien fodder.
Onos primal scream combined with its gore attack kills turrets quickly
basicly lerk+ onos or fade wastes turrets.
Also the main problem is the aliens try to take them out alone, even a couple of skulks can take out turrets if they rush at the same time.
Lastly the marine turrets are stronger because you need to set up turret factories to power them while aliens can build anywhere and very quickly. also the aliens can build def chambers which heal<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and what team do you play as? Marine I thought so. Hopefully the patch will make the game decent and stop you ######## telling 99% of the gaming population that they are wrong about marines being overpowerd. when over 90% of the majority wants a change they should bloody get it.
Its not exactly easy when every ####### game is 12 vs 5, the aliens always with the least.
Marines are far too dependant on turrets, its stupid. They just turtle bases or our hives and thats that, their players can go jerk off or whatever they want to do.
Aliens cant rely on their defences, and can rarely rely on the induvidual abilities of any of the classes.
Theres really no pratical way to deal with mass turrets without Onos, and most games the 3rd hive is blocked off by tons of turrets.
They claim aliens are the "solo class" that dont require the help of others etc to accomplish things, hence the scores shown for aliens. But then they give them horrible damage mitigation and severly lacking offence capabilities. THey arent some ferocious species of killers, they are gnats.
gasp, shock, look at these gameplay variations: throw turrets at aliens third hive and prevent them from getting onos, or, aliens get three hives and throw onos over and over at the humans base (complete with 17 billion turrets) eventually taking enough out to win the game.
No defensive structure should be more capable than an actual player, period.
Give aliens a worth while means of defending at least. Like some sort of abilities that can only be used within a certain range of a hive to make sure its used only for defense (like a 70 damage splash weapon) or increase the damage of acid bolt on the Fade when hes in range of the Hive.
My main beef of course is with the playerbase, they are all a bunch of retard CS kiddies. Its a shame this game shares the same engine as CS, as it just brings down the average intelligence of the playerbase dramatically, to the point where I do not see public servers ever being worthwhile to play on
<img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0"><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0">
we have no chance
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::siege::'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/siege.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::siege::'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::sentry::'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/turret.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::sentry::'><!--endemo-->
Alien defences aren't quite as worthless as I originally thought they were. They just require a different strategy - they need active gorge support on the front lines to stay up and running. This is considerably easier to do when you have some defencive chambers up, as it keeps the gorges healed so they can continue to apply healing sprays on the turrets, which is often enough to outheal a single marine's machine gun attack (especially combined with defencive chamber healing bonuses).
Alien defences still have their shortcomings, mostly that Alien structures are just cannon fodder when marines start using their big guns. Rapid volleys of grenade launchers will kill any gorges silly enough to hang around to try to heal structures. Heavy machine guns can wipe out alien structures quite quickly, albiet at close range. The Welder, although this is apparently rarely known, is quite an ideal tool for removing alien structures quickly. Then there is Siege cannons:
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> Question: Are Siege Cannons supposed to be able to shoot through walls? Because they do, and they wipe out any alien structure in a wide radius, ignoring walls, along with any poor aliens who happen to be nearby. A savvy commander could wipe out entire hives by shooting though walls this way.
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> Alien attacks against marine turrets are not as bad as I thought, but only in a certain important condition: They absolutely need to have a Lerk (my new favorite alien class) with umbra, or else the turrets can chew them up alive. Even Fades and Onos (, surely more durable than anything else,) complete with an armor upgrade are quickly taken down by a line of marine turrets
<b>Important Translation Of The Above:</b> Since Umbra (lvl 3 Lerk weapon), Fades, or Onos are an absolute requirement to take out any significient number of marine turrets, if your alien team has less than 2 hives you will be unable to take out two or more marine turrets without large swarms and heavy losses. This causes a problem because once the marines have put down turrets preventing you from putting a hive in two of the three locations your as good as hosed with no way out.
My revised recommendation: Raise turret costs. Either make them cost about 30-40 each or perhaps require one turret factory for every 3-5 turrets. Give Tier 1 aliens a means to deal with turrets. Perhaps swap the Lerks weapons 2 and 3.
From what I recall of the playtests, 6 turrets was about average for heavily fortified areas, and others would have 2-4. A pair of skulks or a single lerk can take 2-4 with a little time, a bit of skill (and some d chambers especially) . . .