Re-introduction Of Drafts In The Us?
Nemesis_Zero
Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71372&st=0' target='_blank'>Wither</a> recently started a topic about a very well progressing bill suggesting the re-introduction of drafts in the United States in O-T; consider this its serious counterpart.
Ryo found the <a href='http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.89:' target='_blank'>official link</a>.
Now, what motivations do you believe stand behind this? Do you believe that a draft would make sense? Do you think that it'd be popularily supported? What do you think of the specific ramifications of this suggestion?
Discuss.
Ryo found the <a href='http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.89:' target='_blank'>official link</a>.
Now, what motivations do you believe stand behind this? Do you believe that a draft would make sense? Do you think that it'd be popularily supported? What do you think of the specific ramifications of this suggestion?
Discuss.
Comments
No one should be forced to do something they don't want to (except my washing up, everyone should be forced to do that).
I know if they started up conscription again in the UK then I would definitely refuse to join and I would actively fight against it, not just avoid it. Protests, demonstrations etc. If they are going to press gang me they are going to have to do it the old fashioned way and kidnap me, stick me on a ship and threaten to throw me over board if I don't pull my weight.
Even then I still might try swimming.
I am completely against a draft at this time. We are not at war. If we are too spread thin while not at war then someone in upper managment screwed up. If there was a war I would be one of the first to sign up, but we are not.
This bill of course seems worst then a draft. Required service by all capable. Our cherished freedom just got tossed out the door, you all get to serve in some hellhole third world country for three years! How does being a janitor sound? Too bad, off to some base with you!
To me it is rediculous the bill has even made it this far. Our founding fathers would be ashamed of what we are today.
I can tell you one thing, the excitment of voting for the first time this year has been killed.
Canada has a kinda emergency draft system, whereas if we are officially declared in a war, drafting can take place. It has only ever been used twice I think, and both times the public got **** off enough I doubt the government will ever use it again unless trrops are coming across the water towards Canada.
We're not fighting the war right in Iraq, we're not fighting the wae right in Afghanistan. We need leaders in the military not more troops. We need generals who are less worried about the next photo op, and "omg did we damage that mosque!!" And more worried about what a tangled mess our command structure is.
Why aren't we using more armor in Iraq? Why aren't we blowing these fortified mosques up? Anyway getting off topic now.
Personally I have considered joining the armed forces, but I won't stand for being forced into it. If there was a real threat I think enough people, including me, would do their part, as history shows. But to start a draft now, with the war in Iraq not even lowering gas prices for us, would be a big mistake. I predict mass rioting, desertions, tons of unnecessary problems. Also I know allot of people who are eligible for this draft who you really really would not want out there with a gun.
To sum up, we have all the military power we need and then some were just not using it right. Draft will cause riots and major problems, if anything serious ever threatens us allot of people will join on their own. Some people should just never be given a gun and told to fight.
Also who is this "Mr. HOLLINGS" and where does he live, I would love to sit down with him and hear his reasons for this stupidity.
The only valid reason for draft dodging is when you're honestly thinking your government is doing the wrong thing, not because you're afraid of straining your body or getting shot.
Then again, I second Snidelys comment. A year or two of service does only good to a person.
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First off, lets not criticize people from another country, if it was Finland's draft and it would affect you if it was enacted I’m sure your opinion would be different.
Second, I see the draft as an emergency procedure only needed if another country declares war on us, invades us, or something of that sort.
Third I support the Iraq war, but anyone with a brain cell can tell you we don't need to call up a draft to win that war.
Does the government really have all this extra money to train, equip, and pay, all those extra soldiers that as far as I can see we don't need.
The name of the game in politics is covering your bases and hedging your bets.
1) If this is the same guy I'm pretty sure it is, he's bringing a draft to the table as a slap in the face of the war hawks, to bring a sense of reality to the war. Many Americans are losing their sons and daughters to the war, yet polititians and the wealthy are generally isolated from that cost. The hope is that people will think twice before endorsing more combat if they might have to send their children off to fight.
2) In modern combat, a draft is tactical suicide. Thousands upon thousands of poorly trained, ill motivated, and generally uncooperative draftees will actually hinder the efforts of the army. This is not trench warfare. This is engagement with a small, well equiped elite force, that can get a job done fast and with minimal casualties.
A draft will only send people to their deaths.
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First off, lets not criticize people from another country, if it was Finland's draft and it would affect you if it was enacted I?m sure your opinion would be different. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like Nem pointed out, we have drafts. My armed service starts in 1 month.
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My apologies then, I just assumed Finland didn't have a draft for the obvious reasons. But like you said it well most likely do you good.
Edit: Just curious, what type of job well you be given and how long do you have to stay in?
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First off, lets not criticize people from another country, if it was Finland's draft and it would affect you if it was enacted I?m sure your opinion would be different. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like Nem pointed out, we have drafts. My armed service starts in 1 month. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In worst case you'll have to help a lady across the street. In USA they have a very, erhm, active foreign policy.
People might not have been prone to war if they knew they wouldnbe in danger, this is not cowardice but common sense.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Notwithstanding recent stories in the news media and on the Internet, Selective Service is not getting ready to conduct a draft for the U.S. Armed Forces -- either with a special skills or regular draft. Rather, the Agency remains prepared to manage a draft if and when the President and the Congress so direct. This responsibility has been ongoing since 1980 and is nothing new. Further, both the President and the Secretary of Defense have stated on more than one occasion that there is no need for a draft for the War on Terrorism or any likely contingency, such as Iraq. Additionally, the Congress has not acted on any proposed legislation to reinstate a draft. Therefore, Selective Service continues to refine its plans to be prepared as is required by law, and to register young men who are ages 18 through 25.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, if you'll read more about that bill upon which this thread was created to discuss, the bill was submitted in 2003, but has yet to make it out of the Armed Services Committee of the House. It also has no co-sponsors, meaning that no one else is actively supporting it.
The draft <b><u>will not</u></b> take place at this time. What's going on is that some people are starting to see larger threats than exist currently, and are looking to prepare for them.
As far as the "war" goes, we're actually fighting against insurgents from neighboring countries. Not much of this combat has been with actual Iraqi citizens, and what has has been mostly with those clerics vying to get into a position to get power once June 30th comes around. It's not even a war now, it is an act of nation building with violent resistence from religious fanatics and terrorist groups.
This is easily one of the most ignorant opinions I've heard from a U.S. citizen. Congrats. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How so? You can support sending others off to kill and die for a cause, yet you are not willing to die for it yourself, how is this not hypocrisy? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So by that logic, supporting people who do a run for charity and not running yourself is hypocritical? Just because you're behind something doesn't mean you have to take part in it. It just means you're not as committed to the cause as much, if anything.
The "draft" in Finland is an entirely different thing (as I understand it) than the US version. First of all, as was mentioned before, Finland isn't in the habit of invading countries very often. Secondly, the Finish service is required even in times of peace, Linus Torvalds seemed to think that one of its main purpose was to give Finish men something to talk about with eachother.
Lest someone get the wrong idea, I msut say that I agree with your first point. If you supported the war, than stand by your conviction and take a bullet for America you hypocrite.
*Note: Some of the above statements regarding the Finish draft may be incorrect, I'm not Finish and am relying on second hand information gleaned from a book about something else entirely. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong though.
This is easily one of the most ignorant opinions I've heard from a U.S. citizen. Congrats.
Regardless, there will be no draft. This has been brought up so many times around here that I thought everyone understood. There will be no draft.
Over the last year and a half, certain politicians have been prancing around your television hinting that the US military is weak, under-manned, and unprepared for conflict. Then they tell us that we need a draft. And, if you dig deep enough, you'll probably find they're the ones who vote against increasing funding for the armed forces.
Welcome to politics. If they can't convince you to vote for them, maybe they can convince you to not vote for their opponent. What better way to get a few million 18-24 year olds to second guess their vote for a war-supporting politician than to suggest that said voters may end up in a battle zone against their will.
The US has no real need for a draft. We have a completely volunteer military and that military is having no real problems meeting its enlistment or re-enlistment goals. Thus negating the need for a draft. So those of you saying if you support the war you should support this draft are really stretching it. One does not lead to the other. Actually, at this point, its quite the contrary.
Anyways... The draft bills are sponsored by democrats and there is strong public sentiment against such bills. This is known and this is one reason why the bills won't really get anywhere. They have only been proposed by those against the current war to put into the younger populace, with the hope of scaring them into supporting their own political ends.
I was looking over the bill and I noticed two things. First, there are no college deferments. Second, that version of the draft would include women. Both would be positive steps in the realm of Selective Service. While I wouldn't actively support a draft, I wouldn't actively oppose it either. There are a few reasons I wouldn't oppose one.
First it would cut down on the number of chicken hawks. Chicken hawks vex me to no end.
Second, it would increase the Regular Army. A number of units in Iraq right now are National Guard and Reserve units. NG and Reserves aren't equipped as well and don't have the same level of training as those soldiers who serve full time.
Third, military service is character building. I know it sounds cliche, but it does impart a great deal of discipline and teaches the value of teamwork, regular exercise and responsibility which I think that my generation is lacking in spades. You can learn applicable skills in the military (usually in the Air Force or Navy, which place a greater emphasis on technology).
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My apologies then, I just assumed Finland didn't have a draft for the obvious reasons. But like you said it well most likely do you good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Russia is our neighbor and we've had a somewhat rocky past. That's a pretty good reason to have drafts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Edit: Just curious, what type of job well you be given and how long do you have to stay in?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to be in for at least 6 months(basic weapons, close combat and physical training), but I was planning on staying 12. Or you can stay for the rest of your life if you dig military life.
If you don't apply for any special branches(navy, air force, coastal jaegers, paratroopers), you have a little say in where they place you. Medic, combat vehicle driver, air defence, artillery, anti-tank, pioneer etc. are options but most likely they'll place me in Jaeger(basic soldier) training.
Imo it's all good, you make new friends, get some excercise and get to shoot with big gunzors <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Our generation is too lazy. Army does only good for you.
Always a good thing!
Of course I don't want to die. Thats completely irrelevant. The question is would you fight for your country or not, and if you wouldn't then you should just get the hell out.
[edit] Wait a minute, that sounds like a militiaman. Well, I guess Montana's pretty nice.
This is easily one of the most ignorant opinions I've heard from a U.S. citizen. Congrats. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How so? You can support sending others off to kill and die for a cause, yet you are not willing to die for it yourself, how is this not hypocrisy?
Of course I don't want to die. Thats completely irrelevant. The question is would you fight for your country or not, and if you wouldn't then you should just get the hell out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
what about a situation where a war is unjust.
would you fight and die for your country in a war against a nation with a vastly inferior millitary so that your country could steal this other nations resources?
or lets just strech this to cover any conflict which goes against your own personal code of ethics, would you abandon your own ideas of right and wrong and die for your country, even if you knew your country was doing wrong?
Of course I don't want to die. Thats completely irrelevant. The question is would you fight for your country or not, and if you wouldn't then you should just get the hell out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
People who want to die aren't ussually that much use to the armed forces...
There is a noteable difference between wanting to die and being willing to die for a cause.
On the other side, where should you live if you just don't want to fight? I don't think that being willing to die for a country should be a neccicary requirement of being allowed to live there. If you have absolutly no desire to experiance the kill or be killed reality of war, and that one principle is guiding factor in your life, I honestly don't think that you should be forced to fight over the international affairs of the country you just happen to be born into.