<div class="IPBDescription">is it possible?</div> I am trying to learn how to do certain things on a map. Is there a way I can view a map by converting the .bsp back to .rmf?
Well, yes, it's called decompiling, and it is generally frowned upon. But if you just wanna look at how an entity was done or how he made something to look like that, I suppose it's okay as long as you do not steal anything.
not only is it frowned upon, it's not ethical unless you get the map authors permission... it would be like stripping down the mona lisa to see what colors were used rather than asking leonardo divinci if you could just see his palette instead.. Naboo, if you decompile any of the maps without permission you are basically taking something that aint yours...
<!--QuoteBegin-HanzGrub3r+May 18 2004, 04:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HanzGrub3r @ May 18 2004, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> not only is it frowned upon, it's not ethical unless you get the map authors permission... it would be like stripping down the mona lisa to see what colors were used rather than asking leonardo divinci if you could just see his palette instead.. Naboo, if you decompile any of the maps without permission you are basically taking something that aint yours... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think we are going to far with the decompiling issue. If you don't use someone elses work, or copy it and claim it's your own, what harm is there in decompiling for curiosities sake? Maybe i'm wrong. Tell me if i am.
<!--QuoteBegin-Edgecrusher+May 18 2004, 05:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edgecrusher @ May 18 2004, 05:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-HanzGrub3r+May 18 2004, 04:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HanzGrub3r @ May 18 2004, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> not only is it frowned upon, it's not ethical unless you get the map authors permission... it would be like stripping down the mona lisa to see what colors were used rather than asking leonardo divinci if you could just see his palette instead.. Naboo, if you decompile any of the maps without permission you are basically taking something that aint yours... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think we are going to far with the decompiling issue. If you don't use someone elses work, or copy it and claim it's your own, what harm is there in decompiling for curiosities sake? Maybe i'm wrong. Tell me if i am. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah, you're right. Until you overstep the mark of claiming it as your own, decompiling to take a look is all well and good.
As for decompiling apps to do this, i'm afraid i don't know. One thing that might help is that you can (Apparently...) open .bsp files in QuArK, i'm not sure if this will let you view the entities and such, but it may be a start...
One tool for this is BSPTwoMap, works fairly well (I've used it a few times to see how they set up entities to do that supar cool thing). Note that you won't get an exact copy of the original .rmf/.map using tools like this... A map loses this information when it's compiled. The main thing you'll notice is that all walls are 1 unit thick.
<!--QuoteBegin-me23+May 18 2004, 06:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (me23 @ May 18 2004, 06:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One tool for this is BSPTwoMap, works fairly well (I've used it a few times to see how they set up entities to do that supar cool thing). Note that you won't get an exact copy of the original .rmf/.map using tools like this... A map loses this information when it's compiled. The main thing you'll notice is that all walls are 1 unit thick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, each face will become a seperate 1 unit thick brush.
you guys are disappointing.. I would have thought there would be more respect for the mappers. If people wanted the maps to be "open" - they'd release the rmf or map files with the bsp...how many people do that? Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD
Well decompiling..is the horror itself. I know what happens very well if you decompiling a map without persmission.
Horror! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> Dont try that at home!
<!--QuoteBegin-HanzGrub3r+May 18 2004, 07:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HanzGrub3r @ May 18 2004, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you guys are disappointing.. I would have thought there would be more respect for the mappers. If people wanted the maps to be "open" - they'd release the rmf or map files with the bsp...how many people do that? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~afoster/someplace-else-source.zip' target='_blank'>Me?</a>
For looking at entity setups, there's <a href='http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?news=1072935576-17869900' target='_blank'>BSPTwoMap</a>.. All map decompilers are, pretty much by definition, rubbish at converting faces into brushes, but the output is often a good guide as to proportions and texture use. Point entities are preserved intact, while brush entities are a bit mangled. Potentially useful, but I really wouldn't recommend anyone try plagiarising a map this way. It would be way too much effort...
This ain't an open source mod, fellas. If you have a question about how something was done, just ask. There are plenty of people out there, and I'm sure the authors would be more than happy to tell you how they did a particular effect/feature. I know that I wouldn't want any of my work decompiled, only to be "looked at for curiosity" by some twit ready to go claiming it as his own.
If the author wanted his/her map to be open sourced, they'd release a .map/.rmf to the public, but since most don't... I know we can get KFS in here to go off on a rant about how much he hates decompiling... hell, he probably hates it more than I do!
/me nods to <b>zazi</b>...see! I'm not a map nazi! I just like people to respect boundries, if there is such a thing anymore.. may not be physical, but hell, it is a moral one.. I could hack into any number of places and be a real idiot but I don't - not because I can't or don't have the ability - but because I shouldn't - if people want me in their system, they'd give me a userid and a password... same applies here fellas!
Well it may be frouned apon you cant stop it. People do download the maps to THEIR computer. I myself decompile any map that has something I may want to use in my map. I dont jsut copy and paste, I look at all the things about it and try to make it for my map but to the way I want it. I think its perfectaly fine to decompile maps for learning purposes but to copy and paste to claim as your own work is to far.
Now I know some of you are like, but its theirs and not yours you dont have the right to do that. Well I just say come stop me from learing what makes a map tick. becouse Im more of a person who learnes from the accutal product not the web page that trys to walk you though it.
I think this issue has been talked about way to much. If someone wants to do something, no flaming in the world will stop them, half the time it will make them more determined. Yeh, some people use it for learning, no real problem with that, except copying exactly isn't cool, even if its not a copy paste job.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hibame+May 18 2004, 11:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hibame @ May 18 2004, 11:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well it may be frouned apon you cant stop it. People do download the maps to THEIR computer. I myself decompile any map that has something I may want to use in my map. I dont jsut copy and paste, I look at all the things about it and try to make it for my map but to the way I want it. I think its perfectaly fine to decompile maps for learning purposes but to copy and paste to claim as your own work is to far.
Now I know some of you are like, but its theirs and not yours you dont have the right to do that. Well I just say come stop me from learing what makes a map tick. becouse Im more of a person who learnes from the accutal product not the web page that trys to walk you though it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Hibame</b> - You can justify whatever you want. It doesn't change anything. If you don't have the patience to work something out for yourself - you shouldn't be mapping.. Like it was once said so elequently in Jurassic park, "you didn't earn the knowledge for yourself"..."You stood on the shoulders of great people"...
<!--QuoteBegin-Reebdoog+May 18 2004, 11:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Reebdoog @ May 18 2004, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think this issue has been talked about way to much. If someone wants to do something, no flaming in the world will stop them, half the time it will make them more determined. Yeh, some people use it for learning, no real problem with that, except copying exactly isn't cool, even if its not a copy paste job.
Lets let this drop, wheres a mod to lock this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>Reebdoog</b> - No-one has flamed anyone - yet - this is still quite a civil conversation. This is an important topic and one worth discussing.
I guess the greatest point here lies in the moral and ethical code of the mapping community. The truly great maps and their mappers come from the hard work and the intrinsic desire to make something great. I'm pretty sure that none of them used any other map to "learn from". At the very most they were probably inspired by other material...
I guess it's all part of the youth/young-adult sub-culture and the new class group that is emerging. In the 70's and 80's we had the yuppies (the rich upper class that accepted anything that would help them gain)... now the new class is called the "idies".. So elequently portreyed by <b>hibame</b>... IDI - I derserve It. He says it himself - "I just say come stop me" - he thinks because there is no physical way to stop him that it is justified. Well, that's just not the case.
I guess this could become a big intellectual discussion but we can really sum up by saying - This game is not open source. Any method of making it open source goes against the wishes of the creators of the game. It's that simple.
I don't go out and kill someone to get the money they earned out of their wallet just because I am to lazy to earn it for myself... and because I could get away with it doesn't make it right... I know it's an extreme analogy but hey, if it works..
<!--QuoteBegin-Hibame+May 18 2004, 11:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hibame @ May 18 2004, 11:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well it may be frouned apon you cant stop it. People do download the maps to THEIR computer. I myself decompile any map that has something I may want to use in my map. I dont jsut copy and paste, I look at all the things about it and try to make it for my map but to the way I want it. I think its perfectaly fine to decompile maps for learning purposes but to copy and paste to claim as your own work is to far. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Son, I hate to break it to you, but you're contradicing yourself. First off, let me make something clear: Even though you are downloading the map to YOUR computer, you do not have the rights to it. Does that mean that since I installed Photoshop to it, I have the rights to it and can debug it, edit a few things, and ship it off as a retail product? Of course not; that's illegal. Same principle applies here.
As for your "I downloaded it, it's mine, I will do what I like" attitude, I'm appalled. You say you decompile the map, COPY bits and pieces that you want and "modify" them to fit "your" style. Now tell me how is that different than copying and pasting? Is it because you're modifying it? No. Is it because it is "your" map 'cause you downloaded it onto your computer? No. So please tell me the justification behind this, as it is still alluding me.
Now you go off and say that "copying and pasting to claim as your own work is too far." Let me think back to what I just said. How is copying and pasting any different than what you are doing ("copying bits and pieces and "modifying" it to fit "your" style")?
I NEVER Said I copy pasted, you may of thought I did but what I was implying is that I look at it learn how it was done change a few things around if it’s similar to how I want or it may not even be the same.
Here’s something tell me how I would learn how the particle system works to a fair extent with out testing each thing progressively. I looked and didn’t see any posts detailed about how to work it, I know there was going to be a mapper doing a lot of cool stuff with a tut quick behind it but that never came out. So how I am I supos to take advantage of the particle system if I have no idea how it works?
Also I do understand I did sound like an **** in the last post but you must come to the realization that you can’t stop this and never will for Half-Life at least. It may be immoral and looked down upon, but unless you find away to stop it you can make all the arguments you want and posts but you can never really stop it.
In any of my maps I have yet to copy anything directly. You may say I can never justify it and its immoral but I can live with the problems of being immoral to learn how things work and learn what variables do this and that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess this could become a big intellectual discussion but we can really sum up by saying - This game is not open source. Any method of making it open source goes against the wishes of the creators of the game. It's that simple. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it wasn’t truly open source then do what Hostile Intent did and don’t allow any wads for any of the maps to be public. That mod is fun and has great potential but will have limited maps do to the fact that you only have two sets
I would also like to know from the people who made the official NS map that they didn’t ever decompile anything to learn how it’s made and they learned it all by fooling with it until they got it. If they did that’s great some people are like that, but I personally am not.
Now that this argument is over for my end, I voiced my view of it and apparently it’s the minority so it’s not worth fighting an uphill battle bound to gain nothing but wasted time on a computer. So I bid you all a good day and to have much fun playing NS.
Some experimentation with decompiling a fairly complex BSP with two different map decompilation programs. The original RMF and MAP files are included for comparison purposes.
Overall conclusion? The output's <b>worthless</b> if you want a playable map from it - there'd be a <b>lot</b> of work for a skilled mapper just getting something to compile. Even fragments of architecture would require a complete rebuild.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you do use a decompiler to find out how something [entity-related] is done, do give credit to the original mapper. Outright theft of a complex entity setup is wrong - use the entity information to learn how it's done, and build a new, possibly better interpretation yourself, in your own style. Use of a decompiler as an educational tool can be enormously powerful; use of a decompiler for plagiarism is woefully inadequate. Blind copying is no education at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I decompiled a fair number of Half-Life maps to learn how things were done. Does that make me a bad person?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Why decompile when there are lots of good <b><span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>TUTORIALS</span></span></b> out there...
one can learn lots more from a turorial then decompiling a map
<!--QuoteBegin-Hibame+May 19 2004, 04:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hibame @ May 19 2004, 04:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here’s something tell me how I would learn how the particle system works to a fair extent with out testing each thing progressively. I looked and didn’t see any posts detailed about how to work it, I know there was going to be a mapper doing a lot of cool stuff with a tut quick behind it but that never came out. So how I am I supos to take advantage of the particle system if I have no idea how it works? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Straight from the FAQ, young grasshoppa: <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=61923#dGoD-5_1' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...=61923#dGoD-5_1</a>
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-Hand Me The Gun And Ask Me Again+May 19 2004, 11:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hand Me The Gun And Ask Me Again @ May 19 2004, 11:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Overall conclusion? The output's <b>worthless</b> if you want a playable map from it - there'd be a <b>lot</b> of work for a skilled mapper just getting something to compile. Even fragments of architecture would require a complete rebuild. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God yes. I think those of us that rebuilt Bast can attest to that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zazi+May 19 2004, 07:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zazi @ May 19 2004, 07:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Hibame+May 19 2004, 04:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hibame @ May 19 2004, 04:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here’s something tell me how I would learn how the particle system works to a fair extent with out testing each thing progressively. I looked and didn’t see any posts detailed about how to work it, I know there was going to be a mapper doing a lot of cool stuff with a tut quick behind it but that never came out. So how I am I supos to take advantage of the particle system if I have no idea how it works? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Straight from the FAQ, young grasshoppa: <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=61923#dGoD-5_1' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...=61923#dGoD-5_1</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is also a program, which uses code from the actual NS particle system (with permission, of course..) in the works that, from what I can tell, allows you to view and edit Particle systems in your map.. without having to compile it first. (Because compiling can be a real pain) <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=69209&hl=nspsedit' target='_blank'>NSPSedit</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-ANeM+May 19 2004, 04:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ANeM @ May 19 2004, 04:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zazi+May 19 2004, 07:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zazi @ May 19 2004, 07:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Hibame+May 19 2004, 04:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hibame @ May 19 2004, 04:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here’s something tell me how I would learn how the particle system works to a fair extent with out testing each thing progressively. I looked and didn’t see any posts detailed about how to work it, I know there was going to be a mapper doing a lot of cool stuff with a tut quick behind it but that never came out. So how I am I supos to take advantage of the particle system if I have no idea how it works? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Straight from the FAQ, young grasshoppa: <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=61923#dGoD-5_1' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...=61923#dGoD-5_1</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is also a program, which uses code from the actual NS particle system (with permission, of course..) in the works that, from what I can tell, allows you to view and edit Particle systems in your map.. without having to compile it first. (Because compiling can be a real pain) <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=69209&hl=nspsedit' target='_blank'>NSPSedit</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I belive that the program came out quite reciently. But I must admit I didnt read the FAQ close enouf apprently
Maps are ment to be closed source. Decompileing a map is kinda like reverse engineering a program. The programmers didn't intend for his code to be viewed or he'd have posted it on sourceforge or something of that nature. Level designers don't wish to have their maps ripped opened and copied. If they did they would have posted the source. Out of respect for the mappers please don't decompile and rip stuff out and even if you do decompile for goodness sake don't talk about it on here or post pictures of 'your' 'origional' work.
Edit: Had a few trains of thought that crossed. Fixed to make more sense.
Theres 2 programs avaliable for decompiling maps: WinBSP and the newer bspTwoMap.
The problem faced by decompilers is that upon compiling, the map is broken down to visible portions and then split into faces (read: triangles) so decompilers can only take a guess at what the brushwork should look like in hammer. WinBSP does a better job at this, but with bsptwomap you get a better chance of having a compilable map output.
Neither of them are very likely to decompile a complicated map like a TFC or NS map into a state where it could be re-compiled, but they have many uses such as: remaking a map looking at entity setups finding particular texture names from a map reconsturcting features of a map that you like entripping maps
It is beyond me why some mappers are so protective over the "soruce" of their maps. Theres no secrets in there, except, perhaps, entity setups - but recreating entity effects is hardly rocket science. I have released 3 TFC maps & I have released the source for all of them because I can't see any harm in doing so, and perhaps it will help a few people learn. I'm yet to see anyone claim they made my maps / parts of my map stolen, but since release I have seen maps using a similar style which I think is nice <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why would somebody decompile a map, recompile it and claim it as their own when they could just as easily do the same with the original BSP? And do you seriously think that someone other than kfs would get away with claiming they made ns_eclipse? The only potential problem I could see to the full soruce to NS maps being made avaliable is that the community would start fixing map bugs / bad design issues themselves as map updatates dont come that often.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mercior+May 20 2004, 02:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mercior @ May 20 2004, 02:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would somebody decompile a map, recompile it and claim it as their own when they could just as easily do the same with the original BSP? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ask our boy NZ-Nexus that one. Maybe we'll get a straight and honest answer.
Comments
I think we are going to far with the decompiling issue. If you don't use someone elses work, or copy it and claim it's your own, what harm is there in decompiling for curiosities sake? Maybe i'm wrong. Tell me if i am.
I think we are going to far with the decompiling issue. If you don't use someone elses work, or copy it and claim it's your own, what harm is there in decompiling for curiosities sake? Maybe i'm wrong. Tell me if i am. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, you're right. Until you overstep the mark of claiming it as your own, decompiling to take a look is all well and good.
As for decompiling apps to do this, i'm afraid i don't know. One thing that might help is that you can (Apparently...) open .bsp files in QuArK, i'm not sure if this will let you view the entities and such, but it may be a start...
Note that you won't get an exact copy of the original .rmf/.map using tools like this... A map loses this information when it's compiled. The main thing you'll notice is that all walls are 1 unit thick.
Note that you won't get an exact copy of the original .rmf/.map using tools like this... A map loses this information when it's compiled. The main thing you'll notice is that all walls are 1 unit thick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, each face will become a seperate 1 unit thick brush.
Horror! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> Dont try that at home!
<a href='http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~afoster/someplace-else-source.zip' target='_blank'>Me?</a>
For looking at entity setups, there's <a href='http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?news=1072935576-17869900' target='_blank'>BSPTwoMap</a>.. All map decompilers are, pretty much by definition, rubbish at converting faces into brushes, but the output is often a good guide as to proportions and texture use. Point entities are preserved intact, while brush entities are a bit mangled. Potentially useful, but I really wouldn't recommend anyone try plagiarising a map this way. It would be way too much effort...
If the author wanted his/her map to be open sourced, they'd release a .map/.rmf to the public, but since most don't... I know we can get KFS in here to go off on a rant about how much he hates decompiling... hell, he probably hates it more than I do!
Now I know some of you are like, but its theirs and not yours you dont have the right to do that. Well I just say come stop me from learing what makes a map tick. becouse Im more of a person who learnes from the accutal product not the web page that trys to walk you though it.
Lets let this drop, wheres a mod to lock this.
Now I know some of you are like, but its theirs and not yours you dont have the right to do that. Well I just say come stop me from learing what makes a map tick. becouse Im more of a person who learnes from the accutal product not the web page that trys to walk you though it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Hibame</b> - You can justify whatever you want. It doesn't change anything. If you don't have the patience to work something out for yourself - you shouldn't be mapping.. Like it was once said so elequently in Jurassic park, "you didn't earn the knowledge for yourself"..."You stood on the shoulders of great people"...
Lets let this drop, wheres a mod to lock this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Reebdoog</b> - No-one has flamed anyone - yet - this is still quite a civil conversation. This is an important topic and one worth discussing.
I guess the greatest point here lies in the moral and ethical code of the mapping community. The truly great maps and their mappers come from the hard work and the intrinsic desire to make something great. I'm pretty sure that none of them used any other map to "learn from". At the very most they were probably inspired by other material...
I guess it's all part of the youth/young-adult sub-culture and the new class group that is emerging. In the 70's and 80's we had the yuppies (the rich upper class that accepted anything that would help them gain)... now the new class is called the "idies".. So elequently portreyed by <b>hibame</b>... IDI - I derserve It. He says it himself - "I just say come stop me" - he thinks because there is no physical way to stop him that it is justified. Well, that's just not the case.
I guess this could become a big intellectual discussion but we can really sum up by saying - This game is not open source. Any method of making it open source goes against the wishes of the creators of the game. It's that simple.
I don't go out and kill someone to get the money they earned out of their wallet just because I am to lazy to earn it for myself... and because I could get away with it doesn't make it right... I know it's an extreme analogy but hey, if it works..
Son, I hate to break it to you, but you're contradicing yourself. First off, let me make something clear: Even though you are downloading the map to YOUR computer, you do not have the rights to it. Does that mean that since I installed Photoshop to it, I have the rights to it and can debug it, edit a few things, and ship it off as a retail product? Of course not; that's illegal. Same principle applies here.
As for your "I downloaded it, it's mine, I will do what I like" attitude, I'm appalled. You say you decompile the map, COPY bits and pieces that you want and "modify" them to fit "your" style. Now tell me how is that different than copying and pasting? Is it because you're modifying it? No. Is it because it is "your" map 'cause you downloaded it onto your computer? No. So please tell me the justification behind this, as it is still alluding me.
Now you go off and say that "copying and pasting to claim as your own work is too far." Let me think back to what I just said. How is copying and pasting any different than what you are doing ("copying bits and pieces and "modifying" it to fit "your" style")?
Here’s something tell me how I would learn how the particle system works to a fair extent with out testing each thing progressively. I looked and didn’t see any posts detailed about how to work it, I know there was going to be a mapper doing a lot of cool stuff with a tut quick behind it but that never came out. So how I am I supos to take advantage of the particle system if I have no idea how it works?
Also I do understand I did sound like an **** in the last post but you must come to the realization that you can’t stop this and never will for Half-Life at least. It may be immoral and looked down upon, but unless you find away to stop it you can make all the arguments you want and posts but you can never really stop it.
In any of my maps I have yet to copy anything directly. You may say I can never justify it and its immoral but I can live with the problems of being immoral to learn how things work and learn what variables do this and that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess this could become a big intellectual discussion but we can really sum up by saying - This game is not open source. Any method of making it open source goes against the wishes of the creators of the game. It's that simple.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it wasn’t truly open source then do what Hostile Intent did and don’t allow any wads for any of the maps to be public. That mod is fun and has great potential but will have limited maps do to the fact that you only have two sets
I would also like to know from the people who made the official NS map that they didn’t ever decompile anything to learn how it’s made and they learned it all by fooling with it until they got it. If they did that’s great some people are like that, but I personally am not.
Now that this argument is over for my end, I voiced my view of it and apparently it’s the minority so it’s not worth fighting an uphill battle bound to gain nothing but wasted time on a computer. So I bid you all a good day and to have much fun playing NS.
Overall conclusion? The output's <b>worthless</b> if you want a playable map from it - there'd be a <b>lot</b> of work for a skilled mapper just getting something to compile. Even fragments of architecture would require a complete rebuild.
<a href='http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/asylum/se-decompiled.zip' target='_blank'>http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/asylum/se-decompiled.zip</a>
From the README:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you do use a decompiler to find out how something [entity-related] is done, do give credit to the original mapper. Outright theft of a complex entity setup is wrong - use the entity information to learn how it's done, and build a new, possibly better interpretation yourself, in your own style. Use of a decompiler as an educational tool can be enormously powerful; use of a decompiler for plagiarism is woefully inadequate. Blind copying is no education at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I decompiled a fair number of Half-Life maps to learn how things were done. Does that make me a bad person?
one can learn lots more from a turorial then decompiling a map
Straight from the FAQ, young grasshoppa:
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=61923#dGoD-5_1' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...=61923#dGoD-5_1</a>
God yes. I think those of us that rebuilt Bast can attest to that.
Straight from the FAQ, young grasshoppa:
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=61923#dGoD-5_1' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...=61923#dGoD-5_1</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is also a program, which uses code from the actual NS particle system (with permission, of course..) in the works that, from what I can tell, allows you to view and edit Particle systems in your map.. without having to compile it first. (Because compiling can be a real pain)
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=69209&hl=nspsedit' target='_blank'>NSPSedit</a>
Straight from the FAQ, young grasshoppa:
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=61923#dGoD-5_1' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...=61923#dGoD-5_1</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is also a program, which uses code from the actual NS particle system (with permission, of course..) in the works that, from what I can tell, allows you to view and edit Particle systems in your map.. without having to compile it first. (Because compiling can be a real pain)
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=69209&hl=nspsedit' target='_blank'>NSPSedit</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I belive that the program came out quite reciently. But I must admit I didnt read the FAQ close enouf apprently
Edit: Had a few trains of thought that crossed. Fixed to make more sense.
The problem faced by decompilers is that upon compiling, the map is broken down to visible portions and then split into faces (read: triangles) so decompilers can only take a guess at what the brushwork should look like in hammer. WinBSP does a better job at this, but with bsptwomap you get a better chance of having a compilable map output.
Neither of them are very likely to decompile a complicated map like a TFC or NS map into a state where it could be re-compiled, but they have many uses such as:
remaking a map
looking at entity setups
finding particular texture names from a map
reconsturcting features of a map that you like
entripping maps
It is beyond me why some mappers are so protective over the "soruce" of their maps. Theres no secrets in there, except, perhaps, entity setups - but recreating entity effects is hardly rocket science. I have released 3 TFC maps & I have released the source for all of them because I can't see any harm in doing so, and perhaps it will help a few people learn. I'm yet to see anyone claim they made my maps / parts of my map stolen, but since release I have seen maps using a similar style which I think is nice <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why would somebody decompile a map, recompile it and claim it as their own when they could just as easily do the same with the original BSP? And do you seriously think that someone other than kfs would get away with claiming they made ns_eclipse? The only potential problem I could see to the full soruce to NS maps being made avaliable is that the community would start fixing map bugs / bad design issues themselves as map updatates dont come that often.
Ask our boy NZ-Nexus that one. Maybe we'll get a straight and honest answer.
I didn't realize that this was such a issue. I am very thankfully to those that provided the information that I needed.