Gender Roles In Society
GrayDuck
Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16134Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16134Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">do they / should they exist</div> Should it be the norm that men work to bring home paychecks and women stay at home?
A little background: I’m female. Athletic, and for most of my life had an overwhelming “everything boys can do I can do better” attitude. Right up through my first year of college I had a very feministic attitude towards pretty much everything.
Jump ahead 5 years…
I’m married and working full time. It blows. I regret ever wanting to be equal or better than men in <b><u>EVERY</u></b> area. I’d give anything to be able to quit and have children and be a stay at home mom.
One more aspect to consider: I enjoy more masculine things than most women. I work with computers (the only female in my dept, not to mention my CS classes in college). As you can tell I dig NS. 90% of my friends are guys – and I often feel like I’m considered “one of the guys”.
So what changed? Did society bend my thoughts and dreams to the standard gender role? Have I just hit an age where my maternal instincts have kicked in and nothing else sounds good? It’s not that I don’t like working and never want to do it. But being a homemaker just seems to be my place. It’s hard when I get home from work too tired to do household chores, I feel like it’s my job to get that stuff done. And no – my husband in no way makes me feel this way. He wants whatever I want and is working hard now (in graduate school) so that I have the choice later whether or not I want to work.
A little background: I’m female. Athletic, and for most of my life had an overwhelming “everything boys can do I can do better” attitude. Right up through my first year of college I had a very feministic attitude towards pretty much everything.
Jump ahead 5 years…
I’m married and working full time. It blows. I regret ever wanting to be equal or better than men in <b><u>EVERY</u></b> area. I’d give anything to be able to quit and have children and be a stay at home mom.
One more aspect to consider: I enjoy more masculine things than most women. I work with computers (the only female in my dept, not to mention my CS classes in college). As you can tell I dig NS. 90% of my friends are guys – and I often feel like I’m considered “one of the guys”.
So what changed? Did society bend my thoughts and dreams to the standard gender role? Have I just hit an age where my maternal instincts have kicked in and nothing else sounds good? It’s not that I don’t like working and never want to do it. But being a homemaker just seems to be my place. It’s hard when I get home from work too tired to do household chores, I feel like it’s my job to get that stuff done. And no – my husband in no way makes me feel this way. He wants whatever I want and is working hard now (in graduate school) so that I have the choice later whether or not I want to work.
Comments
My quick answer is: all of the above.
Though, I would ask one drawing out question in return (yay for pop psychology <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> ): What if you turn this around--Your husband comes home one night and says he doesn't get fulfillment from his career. He knows your work is going well and he'd like to quit work and stay home to take care of the house. How would you react?
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> My heart would sink (and kind of did reading your post).
Hmmm? I would resist his wants and tell him ?absolutely not? as a first reaction, but then I think I would start accepting the idea. If one of us could stay home and be a great parent / homemaker that should be all I want. However I think I would hold a grudge and resent him for awhile (if not forever). <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> THAT BETTER NEVER HAPPEN!! lol. But if it did I would do my best to compromise. I?m capable and could be the ?bread winner?. I think step 1 would be to find a higher paying job though!
Whoa ? so many thoughts / feelings swirling around in my head.
For the most part though, I think that you are over generalizing, and not really hitting the topic I’m trying to get at.
In your perfect relationship who works outside the house? Inside the house? Or are the all duties shared? Maybe men are tired of the stereotype that they have to be the worker?
I guess I am trying to figure out if gender roles are a personal preference or something that’s still built into society.
Basically, whoever is more qualified for the task. If the woman has a better education than the man does, she can get a job easier and make a lot more money, then she should be the one working. If the man can, then he should. They can both work if they want to, but they have to plan time for <b>both</b> of them to have time with their children. Similarly, if the man is stronger than the woman is, he should be doing the tougher tasks around the house. Exceptions would be if one is the best educated <b>and</b> the strongest, in which case they have to work something out to split the responsibility.
One problem I have with feminism is that most of the feminists I've met were the ones saying that women are better than men and that they deserve more than a man does. Feminism has turned from "I want the same rights and benefits as you!" to "I want the same rights and benefits as you! No wait, you were mean to me. I want <i>more</i> rights and benefits than you have!" This is not true for all feminists, but it's true for pretty much all of the ones I've met/heard of.
Also, Act Chill: You say that a man is less emotional than a woman is. Where is the proof? There are plenty of men that I've met (Myself included) that are just as emotional as women. Depending on the woman, sometimes even more so. Generalizations are bad.
Some say it is a sickness. Some say it is a curse to have these hightened egos that add so much complexity to our thoughts and emotions. On the other side there are those that revel in it. Like them or not, these egos are the source of this urge to explore the unknown and step outside of gender roles. At the end of the day it comes down to this: If your beliefs and values bring you to stepping outside your gender role, congrats. Hopefully it was a spiritual achievement that brought you to a more fulfilling path. But keep in mind that gender roles are not solely constructs of a civilized society; they are widely a part of the nature of this planet. So even if you don't want to embrace your gender role, you might feel better if you did. It is a part of who you are; genetically. At the same time, I like to think we have souls that step outside of our human shells and make decisions that have no basis in earthly terms and in effect are in acceptance of all things; in other words based solely on love. In either case, eventhough the effects can be fleeting they are all significant choices to explore. So I guess my answer is, IT'S ALL GOOD WHATEVER YOU CHOOSE! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> My heart would sink (and kind of did reading your post).
Hmmm? I would resist his wants and tell him ?absolutely not? as a first reaction, but then I think I would start accepting the idea. If one of us could stay home and be a great parent / homemaker that should be all I want. However I think I would hold a grudge and resent him for awhile (if not forever). <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> THAT BETTER NEVER HAPPEN!! lol. But if it did I would do my best to compromise. I?m capable and could be the ?bread winner?. I think step 1 would be to find a higher paying job though!
Whoa ? so many thoughts / feelings swirling around in my head. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You wish to do nothing, and yet you would be devestated if your husband was the one at home loafing about with the kids?
Don't you think that's a tad selfish?
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> My heart would sink (and kind of did reading your post).
Hmmm… I would resist his wants and tell him “absolutely not” as a first reaction, but then I think I would start accepting the idea. If one of us could stay home and be a great parent / homemaker that should be all I want. However I think I would hold a grudge and resent him for awhile (if not forever). <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> THAT BETTER NEVER HAPPEN!! lol. But if it did I would do my best to compromise. I’m capable and could be the “bread winner”. I think step 1 would be to find a higher paying job though!
Whoa – so many thoughts / feelings swirling around in my head. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You wish to do nothing, and yet you would be devestated if your husband was the one at home loafing about with the kids?
Don't you think that's a tad selfish? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
She wouldn't be doing nothing. She's not talking about staying home and sitting on her butt. Shes talking about taking care of the kids and the house full time; Cleaning, cooking meals, and home schooling in some cases. Its actually a lot of work. When you get kids you wont be loafing around with them, they will be a chore in themselves.
Guys, I don't think we should make the women feel bad about something that is simply a motherly urge.
Basically, I think that you've just hit the point where what you're doing doesn't fulfill you. At least that's my observation. Before, you were driven by your feministic attitude, now it seems that you've attained at least part of your goal, and it's not exactly what you thought it would be. I think that right now you're trying to do what's most fulfilling.
As to gender roles, CForrester really sums up my feelings, whoever is most qualified. I can't think of anyone else who would be more fit to raise a child then a woman, (I don't think I need to explain). If you and your husband decided not to have children, and you felt that you didn't want children, I would doubt that you would be in the same exact position you are now.
In summary, (I hope I made sense, I'm a bit out of it right now ), I think that there's nothing surprising about you wanting to be a homemaker and have children. I wouldn't point to societal pressures, but that it's because you want something that is fulfilling, if you were happy at your job, you would want to pursue that, but since you aren't, you're looking for something else. And don't make any mistake, theres absolutely nothing wrong with being a homemaker, raising children is becoming more and more important in an age where children are becoming more lethargic than ever. If anything, I would say that raising an honest, hardworking, healthy child is the most fulfilling thing you can do.
-edit- I inevitably made grammar errors, arrg ! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The problem there is that courts seem to agree with you. There are a lot of custody cases where the woman gets custody of the child(ren) just because she's the mother, even though the father can provide a better home and a better environment. (If you know of the Phone Losers of America, RBCP recently lost custody of his kids and his ex moved to another state where she's going to live in a trailer with a lot of her other family. RBCP is a great father and he definitely deserved custody.)
Stereotypes and generalizations are based in something, otherwise they wouldn't be so widespread. Unfortunately, the stuff their based on is often crap. Men's historical domination over women is definately not justified, but yet has a cause somewhere. I figure it's some combination of the weakness of all humans (we seek scapegoats, rather than solve our problems), love (we do stupid things around our partners, including letting things like sexism occur even when it hurts us both, because we don't want to do anything to disrupt fragile emotions), and plenty of other things.
Sexism won't disappear until we get rid of some of the causes. In your case, I would suggest showing your strength (non-confrontationally, ideally). Don't let him treat you like anything less than an equal. Once that is established, and you have proven yourself capable, you can go do something that society thinks is for the "weaker" sex without losing your sense of self and dignity. Just let him know you're doing it because you want to, not because anything else is too hard. You might not even have to say a thing.
edit: to CForrester - consider how recently women have gained their rightful place in society compared to the average age of a judge. Some of them are bound to fall back on old prejudices.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> My heart would sink (and kind of did reading your post).
Hmmm? I would resist his wants and tell him ?absolutely not? as a first reaction, but then I think I would start accepting the idea. If one of us could stay home and be a great parent / homemaker that should be all I want. However I think I would hold a grudge and resent him for awhile (if not forever). <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> THAT BETTER NEVER HAPPEN!! lol. But if it did I would do my best to compromise. I?m capable and could be the ?bread winner?. I think step 1 would be to find a higher paying job though!
Whoa ? so many thoughts / feelings swirling around in my head. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You wish to do nothing, and yet you would be devestated if your husband was the one at home loafing about with the kids?
Don't you think that's a tad selfish? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
She wouldn't be doing nothing. She's not talking about staying home and sitting on her butt. Shes talking about taking care of the kids and the house full time; Cleaning, cooking meals, and home schooling in some cases. Its actually a lot of work. When you get kids you wont be loafing around with them, they will be a chore in themselves.
Guys, I don't think we should make the women feel bad about something that is simply a motherly urge. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the point is she would be jealous if her husband did it and not her.
And don't bullcrap me, working a job is far less rewarding and more stressful than raising a few kids.
"We became the men we wanted to marry"
What's happening with the women's movement is part of all movements, its maturing. The modern version of the women's movement started in the 50's, roughly after WWII and benefited largely from the civil rights movement (the civil rights movement benefited white women more than any class). It seemed to have peaked in the 70's with such prolific writers like Steinem coining phrases like "women need men, like a fish needs a bicycle". (roll eyes)
This idea of liberation seemed to also hold the notion that women could be great mothers and have brilliant careers, all the while being free of the male enslavement of marriage or relationships. The worse part of it, was it was sold under the idea of equality.
Truth is, it has made big strides since its inception. Currently women are closer to making what the equivelant of a male counterpart would make in her position, BUT guess what... it's not because her salary is going up, its because his is going down.
There is no such thing as equality when it comes to sex. There simply isn't. And its not your fault, my fault, societies fault, gender roles or expectations or any of that. Its because we are quite different biologically.
The male body is not equipped to carry children. We have no uterus, we have no breasts to feed the child, and we don't ovulate on a monthly basis. But beyond that our brains are inferior to a womens' when it comes to motherhood. Women, biologically speaking, are better at identifying emotional needs, moods and responses in infants. Women release different chemicals before and after pregnancy in order to prepare her for the onset of bearing a child. All of this is done without intereference of cultural values, without moral beliefs, and ultimately without concious choice. Its done because of biology.
In the same way men have 40% more upper body strength than men. Our brains are built less for emotional response and relationships, and more for hunting and fighting. We have better spacial awareness than women. This allows us to see things in our minds better on a 3d plain, and therefore succeed better in certain mathmatical calculations inherently (which may explain the huge descrepancies in the amount of female to male engineers and other mathmatically heavy careers). We react to stress differently, we communicate differently and at slower speeds, we process information differently. We are better at processing visual information and therefore are more visual by nature.
this notion of women and men are equal is, simply said, a sad lie. We are not equal. Civilization has existed THOUSANDS of years with understood gender roles. Go anywhere around the world in the present and the past and men were/are "bringin' home the bacon" while women were/are "cookin' it in the kitchen". What made people think that we could change this in FIFTY years is beyond my understanding.
Ultimately, the worse part is now no one knows what to expect. Men want to be sensitive, while women women want someone who is strong. Mother's work full time, along with Dad, in equal paying careers while he's stuck at home with the best toys love can buy. Even worse, economically its killed us. The idea of a single income home sending someone to college is laughable. You need two household incomes just to get by. Why is that? Because guess what happens when you double the workforce? If two "Equal" people are competing for the same job? The person who is willing to take the least amount of pay gets the job.
When you double the workforce, you decrease the amount you have to pay, due to basic competition. As a result, households pull in less cash, and start to depend on two incomes just to meet the average way of life.
Like a fish needs a bicycle my ****.
Life in general tends to suck. And we seek change even though a clearly better solution is never in sight. So we follow what seems to be the better life, and it sucks too.
There is no right way, no wrong way, just the way it's getting done.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+May 8 2004, 02:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 8 2004, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, but the point is she would be jealous if her husband did it and not her.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn… Yes, I would be jealous. But I also said that I would do it. You can’t necessarily blame a person who knows what they want, and watches their partner (or anyone else) get it without them. But it’s not like it would overwhelm me. My husband (also a sensitive guy) will be an excellent Daddy when that time comes and would be well equipped to stay home – but he also has higher career aspirations than I do, and I know he wouldn’t want to give that up solely for children (yes, he would if he had to… I think you know what I mean). Though I would find it funny, a guy with a Ph.D. in Physics being a stay at home dad!
One last thing… While all the posts were very insightful, nobody admitted what they hoped for or wanted. Will those of you who feel strongly that woman and men are not equal insist that your wife’s stay home? Do you feel strongly enough to be offended to work alongside (possibly even under) women? In your guys’ minds, do I have no right to love NS so much?! <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <photoshops in long hair>
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> My heart would sink (and kind of did reading your post).
Hmmm… I would resist his wants and tell him “absolutely not” as a first reaction, but then I think I would start accepting the idea. If one of us could stay home and be a great parent / homemaker that should be all I want. However I think I would hold a grudge and resent him for awhile (if not forever). <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> THAT BETTER NEVER HAPPEN!! lol. But if it did I would do my best to compromise. I’m capable and could be the “bread winner”. I think step 1 would be to find a higher paying job though!
Whoa – so many thoughts / feelings swirling around in my head. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You wish to do nothing, and yet you would be devestated if your husband was the one at home loafing about with the kids?
Don't you think that's a tad selfish? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
She wouldn't be doing nothing. She's not talking about staying home and sitting on her butt. Shes talking about taking care of the kids and the house full time; Cleaning, cooking meals, and home schooling in some cases. Its actually a lot of work. When you get kids you wont be loafing around with them, they will be a chore in themselves.
Guys, I don't think we should make the women feel bad about something that is simply a motherly urge. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the point is she would be jealous if her husband did it and not her.
And don't bullcrap me, working a job is far less rewarding and more stressful than raising a few kids. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but its a motherly role. Of course, she would be jealous of him staying home to take care of the kids and house as much as he would be jealous if she took the sons out and taught them how to play baseball and basketball on the weekends. We shouldn't judge her because of that.
This is not about "the lesser path of resistance" this is about feelings that we instinctively have for survival. And I don't agree that a job is more stressful and less rewarding than raising a few kids. It really depends on the type of person you are. That's why I think shes trying to justify a natural feeling rather than a perceived easy way out.
I believe the "strive for equal rights" are too focussed on equal rights instead of the best way to do things, yes they shouldnt be any discrimination on sexes, people should do what they want to do and work it out with their partner.
Actually, I think our domination over women in those times was justified. In the past while intelligence was important the vast majority of the jobs were more physical so the men were more suited to work, plus there was no contraception so women would be pregnant alot and have to stay at home (and end up looking after the kids already). We've evolved into these roles and its only nowadays that both men and women can compete equally.
I totally believe in womens rights, I also believe in carrying the shopping, paying for their drinks, opening doors for them etc... foolish hey <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Fat man/little coat - I agree totally. The amount of times I've tried to say the same thing myself and been shouted down as soon as it 'sounds' sexist... thats why I like the written word, if they get to a bit they don't like they can shout all they want but at the end of the day they will carry on reading the rest of it.
Me? I'm still stuck with the chivalristic tendancies (that said, I've never actually been on a date). I'll hold the door open for women, I'm more willing to buy a present for a female (birthday or christmas, usually). Not sure why either. I'm pretty passive when it comes to women though. If my girlfriend or wife (...you know, if I ever had one <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) wanted to do something - go back to college, go work, stay at home - as long as she's doing something emotionally healthy, I'm all for it.
I also feel that talking with your spouse can fix almost all problems (but it's so hard to talk to people you don't want to intentionally hurt).
Personally, I think either parent is pretty much equally capable of taking care of the children (well, except if you're going to do breast feeding - which might get ugly with the man). Once the kid is outside the hospital, either parent is set. For the first seven years of my life, my dad was my main parent. He did the changing, the cleaning, the playing. My mom worked almost all the time (and still does, I've tried to coerce her into taking off a few days, because she manages to get herself sick every couple months - from being old or overworking herself - but I vote option 2).
I also have to say my dad wasn't very capable of holding a job well. He was still an excellent parent though, tended to me and my sister nicely - and I like to think we turned out pretty good. I think gender roles are sufficient today (or maybe a little more in the future - <i>with</i> equal hiring standards for every person).
If you wanted to create a world, and you had no control over how you would be born (gender, appearance, ethnicity,etc.), I think the world today would be a pretty good time to be born of either gender (AA needs some work on those ethnicity points...). The only areas women are really held back directly is frontline forces in the military (and special ops, and submarines...). Otherwise, women have the potential to be treated equally (depends on the person serving/hiring/helping them.
I think that kindof clarifies my thoughts well.
Every other human being, regardless of sex, age, creed, or whatever deserves the same treatment and respect that you would wish upon yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, I think our domination over women in those times was justified. In the past while intelligence was important the vast majority of the jobs were more physical so the men were more suited to work, plus there was no contraception so women would be pregnant alot and have to stay at home (and end up looking after the kids already). We've evolved into these roles and its only nowadays that both men and women can compete equally.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering that in some cultures women have competantly accompanied men into battle (about as physically and mentally demanding as you can get), I suspect that difference is purely psychological. Pregnancy can be pretty debilitating as far as manual labor goes, but nothing is forcing the woman to do the mothering after that.
But, yeah, as long as a reason holds up under <i>very</i> loose inspection, it's usually good enough to propegate a stereotype.
My only real gripe with gender:
It should never EVER lock you out of something. Being a woman shouldn't mean you can't be a construction worker, and being a man shouldn't mean you can't wear a dress or makeup, that sort of thing. On the other hand, you'd better be up to the task if you're going to go for a job where one or the other gender is preferred due to the nature of it; if a woman gets overlooked for construction because she's a woman, there's a problem. If it's because she's not strong enough, then that's that.
With regard to feminists and the equality movement... while I'm all up for women getting equal pay (so long as they're competant) and all that, I've found that a lot of feminists that claim they want 'equality' also seem to expect men to open the door for them, pick up the tab at dates, etc., and a huge "WTH" pops up over my head. What kind of equality is that? We're inherently NOT equal from birth, and society took that into consideration when it built our social roles. I think in general what I'm trying to say is that we're already not equal, so let's just go with the flow and make the best of things. Personally, I LIKE the whole "being treated like a lady" thing, and I'd hate to give that up in some mad quest for 'true social equality.'
I hope I made sense. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I want to live to see the age where people ask me "what was the big deal about that anyways?"
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally, I LIKE the whole "being treated like a lady" thing, and I'd hate to give that up in some mad quest for 'true social equality.' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But some would give it up for the equality... I hope for a world that will reward both lifestyles, or even a little of both.