I think theres an added side effect of the new Lerk flight model besides the pancaking "exploit". Because the Lerk has been buffed both intentionally with the 0 cost flight and I hope unintentionally with the pancaking we are seeing more of them in games. This means there is generally greater use of spores and umbra. This alone changes the balance of the game.
My point is that the impact of the new beta 4 Lerk is not just a result of the new flight model but also because there are simply more of them and the effects of their unchanged abilities (mainly spores and umbra) are more apparant.
I'm still deciding if I like the 0 cost flight but for me the issue is confused by pancaking. I think vertical flight could probably stay as it is but currently Lerks can defy the laws of gravity by accelerating downwards. Now excuse me if my biology is inaccurate but in nature all animals (not insects) that have wings use them to generate positive lift, i.e. upwards, they don't generate negative lift.
IMHO a Lerk should not be able to increase they're downward speed unless they are moving forwards.
<!--QuoteBegin-Licho+Apr 29 2004, 06:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Licho @ Apr 29 2004, 06:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well servers admined by Cheese Petesa (YO-clan) have plugin that caps lerk vertical speed to proper limit.. So i guess solution is easy.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wanna PM me the IP? I'd be eager to see if vertical jinking is still a pita <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Morlok+Apr 29 2004, 07:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Morlok @ Apr 29 2004, 07:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IMHO a Lerk should not be able to increase they're downward speed unless they are moving forwards.
Mo <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats what they do. The problem is you don't see it, because theres no vertical model orientation.
<!--QuoteBegin-Licho+Apr 29 2004, 06:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Licho @ Apr 29 2004, 06:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well servers admined by Cheese Petesa (YO-clan) have plugin that caps lerk vertical speed to proper limit.. So i guess solution is easy.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i just played on the yo-clan server too see. what is the cap at? not that was pancaking cuz i think its kinda useless but as a distraction, but i was still able to reach high speeds while diving. the lerk was still very effective (and fun i might add) .i was able to fly around waste make a few attack and then fly out to heal up
the marines did complain that the many lerks we had won the game for us. maybe marines need to adapt and lern how to kill lerks like they did to fades. a few turrets severly effects lerk..cant stay in a room with them more than 2 secs and a gl at any crucial battle will kill a lerk easily.
Plugin Cheesy made simply caps vertical speed limit ("pancaking" was using bug that allowed scripts/bind@mwheel to exceed vertical speed limit with lerk and reach 2000 values..). Speed limit is set in constants: #define MAX_Z_VELOCITY 525.0 #define MAX_Z_CELER1_VELOCITY 600.0 #define MAX_Z_CELER2_VELOCITY 675.0 #define MAX_Z_CELER3_VELOCITY 750.0
It blocks panking bug exploit and allows you to use lerk effectively.. for me its elegant solution..
Im not sure whether plugin is active on all servers, but yo-clan servers are: 212.42.13.20:27015 (NS only) 212.42.13.20:27025 (combat only)
Combat server includes cool spawn system instead of default beta4 described there: <a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=454' target='_blank'>http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=454</a>
i think the new update is great,but im a big lerk player before the update and before i would get cele+cara anyways,and the only problem i had was i would fly in,kill about 2 rines,go to fly away,and on second flap im out of energy,plop im on the ground,then dead
its a flying animal,it should be able to fly endlessly or force rines to walk everywhere,and have a energy bar for running
------------------------- ns team could just do that thing that limits vertical speed,was a few posts back i think
i was gonner post a new topic about this but people hate them. anyway i dont think lerk flight should be reverted in anyway. It does make the lerk overpowering but it makes it more fun instead why not lower bite dmg so it pushed it back into the support role more but is still fun when used in combat. They were serve as a distraction as well as people always wanner gun the lerk down but your hard to hit, the skulks run in and kill them while you can weaken them with your spores and bite. 1 hitting with the bite on a lerk (focus, lvl0 armour) is just wrong as movment is so easy and its easy to avoid fire.
Even though the lerk is a support lifeform, it has to be better than a skulk in some ways. With the 30 res cost/2 point cost, which is already pretty high, is perfect for keeping them back from being too easily obtainable.
But yeah, like everyone said, vertical acceleration should be nerfed at least. That would be the reason why lerks use more spores and umbra now. Just for their pancaking role.
<!--QuoteBegin-Morlok+Apr 29 2004, 07:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Morlok @ Apr 29 2004, 07:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think theres an added side effect of the new Lerk flight model besides the pancaking "exploit". Because the Lerk has been buffed both intentionally with the 0 cost flight and I hope unintentionally with the pancaking we are seeing more of them in games. This means there is generally greater use of spores and umbra. This alone changes the balance of the game.
My point is that the impact of the new beta 4 Lerk is not just a result of the new flight model but also because there are simply more of them and the effects of their unchanged abilities (mainly spores and umbra) are more apparant.
I'm still deciding if I like the 0 cost flight but for me the issue is confused by pancaking. I think vertical flight could probably stay as it is but currently Lerks can defy the laws of gravity by accelerating downwards. Now excuse me if my biology is inaccurate but in nature all animals (not insects) that have wings use them to generate positive lift, i.e. upwards, they don't generate negative lift.
IMHO a Lerk should not be able to increase they're downward speed unless they are moving forwards.
Mo <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be your physics that's off, and yes, it's very, very far off. "In nature," yes biological beings (be them mamals/insects etc.) CAN accelerate downwards... Accelerating downwards doesn't break any law of gravity....
Comments
My point is that the impact of the new beta 4 Lerk is not just a result of the new flight model but also because there are simply more of them and the effects of their unchanged abilities (mainly spores and umbra) are more apparant.
I'm still deciding if I like the 0 cost flight but for me the issue is confused by pancaking. I think vertical flight could probably stay as it is but currently Lerks can defy the laws of gravity by accelerating downwards. Now excuse me if my biology is inaccurate but in nature all animals (not insects) that have wings use them to generate positive lift, i.e. upwards, they don't generate negative lift.
IMHO a Lerk should not be able to increase they're downward speed unless they are moving forwards.
Mo
So i guess solution is easy.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wanna PM me the IP? I'd be eager to see if vertical jinking is still a pita <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
IMHO a Lerk should not be able to increase they're downward speed unless they are moving forwards.
Mo <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats what they do. The problem is you don't see it, because theres no vertical model orientation.
So i guess solution is easy.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i just played on the yo-clan server too see. what is the cap at? not that was pancaking cuz i think its kinda useless but as a distraction, but i was still able to reach high speeds while diving. the lerk was still very effective (and fun i might add) .i was able to fly around waste make a few attack and then fly out to heal up
the marines did complain that the many lerks we had won the game for us.
maybe marines need to adapt and lern how to kill lerks like they did to fades.
a few turrets severly effects lerk..cant stay in a room with them more than 2 secs
and a gl at any crucial battle will kill a lerk easily.
#define MAX_Z_VELOCITY 525.0
#define MAX_Z_CELER1_VELOCITY 600.0
#define MAX_Z_CELER2_VELOCITY 675.0
#define MAX_Z_CELER3_VELOCITY 750.0
It blocks panking bug exploit and allows you to use lerk effectively.. for me its elegant solution..
Im not sure whether plugin is active on all servers, but yo-clan servers are:
212.42.13.20:27015 (NS only)
212.42.13.20:27025 (combat only)
Combat server includes cool spawn system instead of default beta4 described there: <a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=454' target='_blank'>http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=454</a>
and before i would get cele+cara anyways,and the only problem i had was i would fly in,kill about 2 rines,go to fly away,and on second flap im out of energy,plop im on the ground,then dead
its a flying animal,it should be able to fly endlessly
or force rines to walk everywhere,and have a energy bar for running
-------------------------
ns team could just do that thing that limits vertical speed,was a few posts back i think
but what is actually happeneing?
But yeah, like everyone said, vertical acceleration should be nerfed at least. That would be the reason why lerks use more spores and umbra now. Just for their pancaking role.
- RD
My point is that the impact of the new beta 4 Lerk is not just a result of the new flight model but also because there are simply more of them and the effects of their unchanged abilities (mainly spores and umbra) are more apparant.
I'm still deciding if I like the 0 cost flight but for me the issue is confused by pancaking. I think vertical flight could probably stay as it is but currently Lerks can defy the laws of gravity by accelerating downwards. Now excuse me if my biology is inaccurate but in nature all animals (not insects) that have wings use them to generate positive lift, i.e. upwards, they don't generate negative lift.
IMHO a Lerk should not be able to increase they're downward speed unless they are moving forwards.
Mo <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be your physics that's off, and yes, it's very, very far off. "In nature," yes biological beings (be them mamals/insects etc.) CAN accelerate downwards... Accelerating downwards doesn't break any law of gravity....