<div class="IPBDescription">Is it balance?</div> Look at the title. Why can't you do it? I'm guessing it's balance so that jpers don't just fly through the webs and pwn the hive.
Seems more like a bug to me. There's not much of a point to it really. They could just as easily take the webs, wait a few seconds, and continue. Without defence webs are only a deterrent.
Webs aren't all that useful anway. They are death to a lone jper, but seriously, a single jper should not be "teh win" on an alien hive. To win, you should need to move on a hive en masse, and once that starts happening, webs are often useless: the limit has been hit, they are poorly placed, and gorges die or nade wipe out all the webs instantly.
The welder welds at a random rate now, so sometimes you hit the webs and sometimes you don't. It is just easier to get webbed when you are jping with a welder because you are going at a much higher speed then walking.
<!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Apr 10 2004, 11:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Apr 10 2004, 11:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Webs aren't all that useful anway. They are death to a lone jper, but seriously, a single jper should not be "teh win" on an alien hive. To win, you should need to move on a hive en masse, and once that starts happening, webs are often useless: the limit has been hit, they are poorly placed, and gorges die or nade wipe out all the webs instantly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> omg you are lying sir. Webs are the single most unbalancing factor in NS:Combat right now.
<!--QuoteBegin-civman2+Apr 10 2004, 10:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (civman2 @ Apr 10 2004, 10:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Apr 10 2004, 11:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Apr 10 2004, 11:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Webs aren't all that useful anway. They are death to a lone jper, but seriously, a single jper should not be "teh win" on an alien hive. To win, you should need to move on a hive en masse, and once that starts happening, webs are often useless: the limit has been hit, they are poorly placed, and gorges die or nade wipe out all the webs instantly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> omg you are lying sir. Webs are the single most unbalancing factor in NS:Combat right now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ditto.
Nonsense. Once granade launchers show up in a given area, webs are toast. The reason people hate webs is that they are still used to being the lone jpers taking down the hive all by themselves. But NS is supposed to be about teamwork: you shouldn't be able to clear all the webs and gun down the hive all by yourself. You need several rines who specialize in different things. With that in place, webs are little trouble at all.
Webs are an odd mix of nerfs(Hive 3, less in an area) and strength(easy to acquire and very lame in Combat) right now. JPs being able to fly through them with the welder out eliminated their usefulness as a JP counter. They're barely even worth the effort in Classic(and I don't think they, or Gorges, belong in Combat at all) as it is, because by the time you get them the marines have HA trains which are never without welders on every person. Defending hives against JP rushes may not be nearly as important as it was in 1.04, but they were so easy to fly through before it was just stupid.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Apr 10 2004, 10:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Apr 10 2004, 10:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Webs are an odd mix of nerfs(Hive 3, less in an area) and strength(easy to acquire and very lame in Combat) right now. JPs being able to fly through them with the welder out eliminated their usefulness as a JP counter. They're barely even worth the effort in Classic(and I don't think they, or Gorges, belong in Combat at all) as it is, because by the time you get them the marines have HA trains which are never without welders on every person. Defending hives against JP rushes may not be nearly as important as it was in 1.04, but they were so easy to fly through before it was just stupid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Either the marines have heavies or they are under powered LAs because of alien domination and they are still as pointless. They are only useful in an epic game of NSC where you have a mix of HA/JPs on the Marines and Onos/Fade run rampant. Which is extremely rare...
As for their balance in CO... You shouldn't ever use CO as a factor for balance. IT's pointless because the game itself is rather unrealistic and was meant to be a break in classic NS where players get a chance to frag around some, not to replace it.
As for the topic, the welder does fire randomly. You just can't fly through at max speed and expect to get them. You have to take time, which = death for marines with JP in almost every situation.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Apr 10 2004, 10:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Apr 10 2004, 10:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They're barely even worth the effort in Classic(and I don't think they, or Gorges, belong in Combat at all) as it is, because by the time you get them the marines have HA trains which are never without welders on every person. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, even that wasn't the worst part. The worst part is the fact that, like sensory chambers, by the time you get webs, the game is usually pretty much over, meaning that you never really get to use them in a real situation in order to help pull out a win in a real contest. Part of what's fun in combat is that you actually DO get to use webs for real purposes in games that are still very much up in the air.
Both sensory and webs and focus and all those sorts of things are tons of fun, but if it wasn't for Combat, we'd almost never get to see/play with them. Which is sort of sad.
perhaps a compromise.. make welders eat through webs like in the old days.
theres still plenty of people who dont want to 'waste' a level on welders, so youll have your fun. And we can <b> effectivly </b> counter webs without resorting to the GL (im a shotgun kinda guy myself).
Its a nerf to webs which doesnt directly effect webs! and it makes most sense since this is how it used to be!!!1
pls pls pls make welders useful against webs again! (i cant tell you the number of times ive had my welder out as a JPer, ,only to be caught regardless and rapidly munched, it seems much higher than the amount of times ive actually welded through a web).
Webs have been hit hard with the nerf stick. 1) Fewer webs total per map (30 for an entire NS map is NOTHING) 2) Fewer webs per area (is it 8 or 10 per area now?!) 3) Shorter "webbed" duration 4) Welder can now remove webs from teammates
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->theres still plenty of people who dont want to 'waste' a level on welders, so youll have your fun. And we can effectivly counter webs without resorting to the GL (im a shotgun kinda guy myself).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But see, there you go again. You want to be all things at once: a single marine who can handle anything You're probably exactly the sort of lone jper I'm talking about. That's just not the point of this game: you need a mix of units. Like the shotgun? Great: but you need to be backed up by other units as well.
Lone jetpacker my foot. It used to be that a jetpacker with a welder could lead the way into the hive by quickly clearing the webs and distracting the aliens as the heavies and supporting lights could move in and take positions around the hive. Now every time I try to clear a web I end up getting webbed. Lame. The welder should be effective against webs, that is 50% of its functionality.
And another thing, how come when I load 3 grenades into the GL and then I get webbed I have to start all over again? Do the grenades magically disappear or fall out of the chambers when I get webbed?
to be fair, whats wrong with being a lone JPer. I earn my 5+ levels for JP and welder, I expect something for my money.
alot of people dont care about backing you up in CO, or moving in a team to the hive. You cant even see where your teammates are with the C map.
sometimes it comes down to being a lone JPer. If I want teamplay (which 99% of the time I do, as it happens) Ill play NS. When I want to fly around like an idiot shooting things, not worrying about where my teammates are! ill play CO.
Welders should clear webs. They always have. I shouldnt get webbed because i have the damn counter to webs!
its like MT only picking up aliens 50% of the time.. phase gates only working 50% of the time.. in fact worse than that because welders seem to fail against webs 80% of the time..
You used to be able to just aim in the direction of the webs and they would disappear, but now you have to aim exactly with pinpoint precision to take them down. It's so stupid. I get webbed sometimes even when I'm walking slow and pointing at them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You cant even see where your teammates are with the C map. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that sucks, I wish they would change that. It really breaks the continuity from NS, having the cool minimap. They don't need to add red dots to motion tracking on the minimap, but just knowing where your teamates are is really helpful.
you can weld the web, i did it my self but you know that welder goes like weld.. stop.. weld.. stop.. weld.. and you have jets flying fast and the welder cannot match the speed
Yeah i actually think it would be cool that when i spend a point on welder, that i can take out webs in mid air with last inv. And no, i wont use gl cos it simply sucks one on one against fade onos...actually even a gorge. The map for co map is missing you're right. And webs are too strong. Yesterday, i was aliens lvl 8 with two points to spend. The marines made a good attack that dropped the hive to about 10 percent. So i went gorge and took adrenaline. And i told my teammates the win was ours, and yes, i webed everyone in their base, every jpers in the vents. ( With Sof ) Webs, fast swicht focus spit and there! One on one vs anything i win.
By the way, the team never deserved to win cos marines were better but Gorge makes co a lot more bs! Nuff said
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah i actually think it would be cool that when i spend a point on welder, that i can take out webs in mid air with last inv. And no, i wont use gl cos it simply sucks one on one against fade onos...actually even a gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you even listening.
You must. Have. Variety. Yes, GL is not a good melee weapon: it's a support/anti-structure weapon. And it is a perfect counter to webs. Combine it with a few fellow marines with HMGs, and you can really clean up.
You're just like everyone else: you want everything to do everything, to be the master onos killer, web welder, jper, hive killer, etc. all by yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Apr 15 2004, 11:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Apr 15 2004, 11:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You must. Have. Variety. Yes, GL is not a good melee weapon: it's a support/anti-structure weapon. And it is a perfect counter to webs. Combine it with a few fellow marines with HMGs, and you can really clean up.
You're just like everyone else: you want everything to do everything, to be the master onos killer, web welder, jper, hive killer, etc. all by yourself.
That's just not how this game works. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> REPRESENT!!
All I hear in this thread is whining, save from Apos.
Note: Having a welder as a JP slows you considerably.
As does having anything greater then a LMG.
Or, basically, anything then the standard loadout makes you a rock in midair.
Try this: Go into a NS map, give yourself a jetpack. Jump to the ceiling, fall a foot, then try to touch the ceiling again. Pretty easy.
Now give yourself a welder. Slower, but still do-able.
Now give yourself an HMG, welder, a handgrenade (That you forgot to throw) and a pack of mines.
You're a rock with (out) wings.
I've survived for up to five minutes in a hive with resupply and level 3 LMG. Only when support came did I buy a shotty, promptly dying, since I couldn't fly. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The problem is all the hive 3 abilities take no skill. Anyone ever hear someone say "wow you're a really good xeno/charge/acid rocket/web/primal scream'er? No.. You haven't, because they all take 0 skill.
Maybe except charge. That damn thing is hard to aim with, and even harder to stay in constant contact with what you're damaging.
Nonetheless, it's because hive3 abilities were initially designed as the be-all-end-all weapons. Some of the weapons were dumbed down to the point where they were no longer the be-all-end-all weapon they used to be *coughacidrocketscough*
Some were only nerfed with time or limited restrictions, but their functions still remain, making them limited be-all-end-all weapons, like Webs.
Some remained untouched, and stil remain be-all-end-all weapons, like Xenocide.
BTW, Nadagast, I wouldn't classify Primal Scream as 'skillless', more like 'barely used'
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Apr 16 2004, 06:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Apr 16 2004, 06:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wouldnt say Charge takes skill, it just sucks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wel, look on the bright side, ifit were the 'Ram into it and cause lots of damage' weapon like suggested, we'd have another no-skill weapon.
I'd rather have a weapon that sucks than one which is abnormally easy to use.
Maybe I should clarify my position here: I don't give a crap about Combat. Maybe Webs are overpowered in Combat, sure; half the nerfs they've taken don't really effect them there(smaller maps so less webs necessary, not hard at all to get hive 3 abilities). In Classic, Webs are useless. We can not make balance changes to help Combat at the expense of Classic. If something needs to be sacrificed it should be Combat, not the primary game mode.
Personally I think Combat Webs are one of many problems that the re-introduction of gorges has brought back to co_ maps. Ditch gorges, give the hive its decent healing rate back and then improve webs so they're worth something in Classic.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> it makes me sad to see so many people think webs are overpowered. back in 1.04, web effects were stackable and lasted like 8 seconds (someone check that)
I think all the 3rd hive weapons atm are just crap. Primal Scream doesn't last long enough for the lerk to sit still and recouperate the adrenaline to cast it again. (yes I normally take celerity) Charge doesn't work etc etc.
Think about this, if marines have taken 3 hives (ie. 2 hive lockdown for significant length of time), they should be well on their way to winning the game. However, even with all 3 hives, it is still uncertain if marines can come back.
back on-topic, who cares if you got webbed in mid air, the effect last about 2 seconds and only if you are really un-lucky you fall into the middle of a WoL even then, some careful medspam will keep you alive.
I think we need to re-visit some of the ideas of 1.04, the changes from 1.04>2/3 are too great. Maybe linking onos w/ 2 hives etc. but make them stronger. I agree w/ the ppl saying trying to balance co is a waste of time, since it is the secondary play mode. And there is no way of balancing both and keeping the same stats because of the difference in play styles.
Webs are situationaly powerful weapon. In combat, against a lone JP, they are quite powerful. In regular NS, they are next to useless.
Even in combat, the only things webs are good for are stopping long JPs from chewing up the hive in 30 seconds, or webbing up the marine start once you have all of them killed.
Comments
omg you are lying sir. Webs are the single most unbalancing factor in NS:Combat right now.
omg you are lying sir. Webs are the single most unbalancing factor in NS:Combat right now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ditto.
Either the marines have heavies or they are under powered LAs because of alien domination and they are still as pointless. They are only useful in an epic game of NSC where you have a mix of HA/JPs on the Marines and Onos/Fade run rampant. Which is extremely rare...
As for their balance in CO... You shouldn't ever use CO as a factor for balance. IT's pointless because the game itself is rather unrealistic and was meant to be a break in classic NS where players get a chance to frag around some, not to replace it.
As for the topic, the welder does fire randomly. You just can't fly through at max speed and expect to get them. You have to take time, which = death for marines with JP in almost every situation.
Well, even that wasn't the worst part. The worst part is the fact that, like sensory chambers, by the time you get webs, the game is usually pretty much over, meaning that you never really get to use them in a real situation in order to help pull out a win in a real contest. Part of what's fun in combat is that you actually DO get to use webs for real purposes in games that are still very much up in the air.
Both sensory and webs and focus and all those sorts of things are tons of fun, but if it wasn't for Combat, we'd almost never get to see/play with them. Which is sort of sad.
perhaps a compromise.. make welders eat through webs like in the old days.
theres still plenty of people who dont want to 'waste' a level on welders, so youll have your fun. And we can <b> effectivly </b> counter webs without resorting to the GL (im a shotgun kinda guy myself).
Its a nerf to webs which doesnt directly effect webs! and it makes most sense since this is how it used to be!!!1
pls pls pls make welders useful against webs again!
(i cant tell you the number of times ive had my welder out as a JPer, ,only to be caught regardless and rapidly munched, it seems much higher than the amount of times ive actually welded through a web).
1) Fewer webs total per map (30 for an entire NS map is NOTHING)
2) Fewer webs per area (is it 8 or 10 per area now?!)
3) Shorter "webbed" duration
4) Welder can now remove webs from teammates
But see, there you go again. You want to be all things at once: a single marine who can handle anything You're probably exactly the sort of lone jper I'm talking about. That's just not the point of this game: you need a mix of units. Like the shotgun? Great: but you need to be backed up by other units as well.
And another thing, how come when I load 3 grenades into the GL and then I get webbed I have to start all over again? Do the grenades magically disappear or fall out of the chambers when I get webbed?
I earn my 5+ levels for JP and welder, I expect something for my money.
alot of people dont care about backing you up in CO, or moving in a team to the hive. You cant even see where your teammates are with the C map.
sometimes it comes down to being a lone JPer.
If I want teamplay (which 99% of the time I do, as it happens) Ill play NS.
When I want to fly around like an idiot shooting things, not worrying about where my teammates are! ill play CO.
Welders should clear webs.
They always have.
I shouldnt get webbed because i have the damn counter to webs!
its like MT only picking up aliens 50% of the time..
phase gates only working 50% of the time..
in fact worse than that because welders seem to fail against webs 80% of the time..
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that sucks, I wish they would change that. It really breaks the continuity from NS, having the cool minimap. They don't need to add red dots to motion tracking on the minimap, but just knowing where your teamates are is really helpful.
And webs are too strong. Yesterday, i was aliens lvl 8 with two points to spend. The marines made a good attack that dropped the hive to about 10 percent. So i went gorge and took adrenaline. And i told my teammates the win was ours, and yes, i webed everyone in their base, every jpers in the vents. ( With Sof )
Webs, fast swicht focus spit and there! One on one vs anything i win.
By the way, the team never deserved to win cos marines were better but
Gorge makes co a lot more bs! Nuff said
Are you even listening.
You must. Have. Variety. Yes, GL is not a good melee weapon: it's a support/anti-structure weapon. And it is a perfect counter to webs. Combine it with a few fellow marines with HMGs, and you can really clean up.
You're just like everyone else: you want everything to do everything, to be the master onos killer, web welder, jper, hive killer, etc. all by yourself.
That's just not how this game works.
You're just like everyone else: you want everything to do everything, to be the master onos killer, web welder, jper, hive killer, etc. all by yourself.
That's just not how this game works. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
REPRESENT!!
Note: Having a welder as a JP slows you considerably.
As does having anything greater then a LMG.
Or, basically, anything then the standard loadout makes you a rock in midair.
Try this: Go into a NS map, give yourself a jetpack. Jump to the ceiling, fall a foot, then try to touch the ceiling again. Pretty easy.
Now give yourself a welder. Slower, but still do-able.
Now give yourself an HMG, welder, a handgrenade (That you forgot to throw) and a pack of mines.
You're a rock with (out) wings.
I've survived for up to five minutes in a hive with resupply and level 3 LMG. Only when support came did I buy a shotty, promptly dying, since I couldn't fly. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nonetheless, it's because hive3 abilities were initially designed as the be-all-end-all weapons. Some of the weapons were dumbed down to the point where they were no longer the be-all-end-all weapon they used to be *coughacidrocketscough*
Some were only nerfed with time or limited restrictions, but their functions still remain, making them limited be-all-end-all weapons, like Webs.
Some remained untouched, and stil remain be-all-end-all weapons, like Xenocide.
BTW, Nadagast, I wouldn't classify Primal Scream as 'skillless', more like 'barely used'
Wel, look on the bright side, ifit were the 'Ram into it and cause lots of damage' weapon like suggested, we'd have another no-skill weapon.
I'd rather have a weapon that sucks than one which is abnormally easy to use.
Personally I think Combat Webs are one of many problems that the re-introduction of gorges has brought back to co_ maps. Ditch gorges, give the hive its decent healing rate back and then improve webs so they're worth something in Classic.
back in 1.04, web effects were stackable and lasted like 8 seconds (someone check that)
I think all the 3rd hive weapons atm are just crap. Primal Scream doesn't last long enough for the lerk to sit still and recouperate the adrenaline to cast it again. (yes I normally take celerity)
Charge doesn't work etc etc.
Think about this, if marines have taken 3 hives (ie. 2 hive lockdown for significant length of time), they should be well on their way to winning the game. However, even with all 3 hives, it is still uncertain if marines can come back.
back on-topic, who cares if you got webbed in mid air, the effect last about 2 seconds and only if you are really un-lucky you fall into the middle of a WoL even then, some careful medspam will keep you alive.
I think we need to re-visit some of the ideas of 1.04, the changes from 1.04>2/3 are too great. Maybe linking onos w/ 2 hives etc. but make them stronger.
I agree w/ the ppl saying trying to balance co is a waste of time, since it is the secondary play mode. And there is no way of balancing both and keeping the same stats because of the difference in play styles.
Even in combat, the only things webs are good for are stopping long JPs from chewing up the hive in 30 seconds, or webbing up the marine start once you have all of them killed.
Oh, and Apos = tehright.