Res Vs Res? Or Players Vs Players?
Ballisto
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Comparisons</div> We all know how on the forums people love to say about balance how the costs even out and such.
Example:
100 res of onos should = 100 res of marine (i.e. 3 decked out ha's)
(they should be an even match when they're all in battle at the same time)
Or...
50 res of fade should = 5 shotguns
So that means that 50 res of fade should be able to take out unlimited vanilla marines, as they're free.
They often do, picking them off one at a time, being a pain in the **** the whole game.
However, how about a group of five light marines? Seven? Ten? Seven marines, one with a shotgun?
I'm saying this because in just about every ns game I've played recently, as soon as the aliens get a fade, it's gg because he'll own the marines like no other. Comm hands out shotguns. They end up dying, but the fade is still alive, and he's been taking out rts so it's gg.
Ns is all about teamwork. It just doesn't seem right how one skilled fade means a win (and there almost always is one on aliens). I know he needs gorges putting up rt's and dc's behind the scenes, but it feels like "survive until the fade arrives and then gg". Once the fade gets there, the marine rts disappear very quickly and the marines can't leave base any more.
I'd like to hear how it is in clans, cause I have no experience in that area.
Is it right though, that a fade can blink in a group of 7 marines light, blink around until the right moment comes, rip one guy's head off, and then keep doing it? Even though its 0 res vs 50 res, 7 v 1 players with the 1 winning constantly doesn't make sense to me.
I liked the old fades... they went down easy as long as you aimed for the balls (hitbox folks!). Now they're easier to hit, but impossible to kill.
So... what do you guys have to say?
Example:
100 res of onos should = 100 res of marine (i.e. 3 decked out ha's)
(they should be an even match when they're all in battle at the same time)
Or...
50 res of fade should = 5 shotguns
So that means that 50 res of fade should be able to take out unlimited vanilla marines, as they're free.
They often do, picking them off one at a time, being a pain in the **** the whole game.
However, how about a group of five light marines? Seven? Ten? Seven marines, one with a shotgun?
I'm saying this because in just about every ns game I've played recently, as soon as the aliens get a fade, it's gg because he'll own the marines like no other. Comm hands out shotguns. They end up dying, but the fade is still alive, and he's been taking out rts so it's gg.
Ns is all about teamwork. It just doesn't seem right how one skilled fade means a win (and there almost always is one on aliens). I know he needs gorges putting up rt's and dc's behind the scenes, but it feels like "survive until the fade arrives and then gg". Once the fade gets there, the marine rts disappear very quickly and the marines can't leave base any more.
I'd like to hear how it is in clans, cause I have no experience in that area.
Is it right though, that a fade can blink in a group of 7 marines light, blink around until the right moment comes, rip one guy's head off, and then keep doing it? Even though its 0 res vs 50 res, 7 v 1 players with the 1 winning constantly doesn't make sense to me.
I liked the old fades... they went down easy as long as you aimed for the balls (hitbox folks!). Now they're easier to hit, but impossible to kill.
So... what do you guys have to say?
Comments
You've basically answered you own question.. A little more practice, a little more perserverance and that fade will go down. A little more luck helps, too.
The popular method on forcing the fade to stay longer than it wants to is "Blocking the fade" where one marine suicides himself in the exit path of the fade so that more shots can be fired at the fade, increasing the chances of killing it.
Hope that helps, it's been a long time since I've posted somewhere outside of OT.
Individual skill also makes a difference
4 connected shotgun blasts to a fade will easily take it out, the trouble is getting it to quit blinking around for 2 seconds...
Unfortunately making any kinds of comparisons between unit equality is almost useless if you base it off of res.
Case in point: Marine upgrades are fixed cost for a one-time cover-all upgrade. It is obvious that a marine with lvl0/lvl0 is much to the disadvantage to a marine with lvl3/lvl3. If you applied the cost of an upgrade to a unit on an individual basis however you would find that upgrades cost virtually nothing per unit spawn.
When this principle is applied to the cost of an HA unit a lvl3/lvl3 costs virtually nothing more than a lvl0/lvl0 HA. However noone can dispute the difference between the two units is vast.
Using the res equivalent argument between an Onos and 3 HAs might work for the lvl0/lvl0, but not likely for the lvl3/lvl3. However, the difference in cost is virtually nothing. Thus, the amount of res spent upon a unit and its relative worth for any given situation are distinctly disjoint and does not constitue a metric of comparison.
If you want to compare units between the two teams, res cost simply isn't the way to do it. Ain't math great!!!
Next, a Fade can't just 'blink around and then rip one guys head off in a group'. Trust me, being just a mediocre fade, it doesn't work like that. Against anyone with Shotguns or better, the Fade relys entirely on the element of surprise to get <i>in, out and on with life</i> most likely just wounding 1 marine. Only once marines make grave mistakes and open themselves up to the hurting will a fade be able to kill several in a short amount of time.
More importantly, his Adrenaline is limited - especially if he's fighting heavy weapons, he'll probably be needing Celerity. To swipe effectively enough to kill an LA fast requires a tad of spare Adren - if as you said he went evasive infront of your eyes and then just swooped one, well dear lord do you guys suck. Because a Fade is really not an awefully strong offensive tool.
As for RTs going down, who cares? The earliest a Fade can come is usually 4 minutes - lets say it takes him near a minute per RT now. He'll get an amazing 2 RT (and let you roam the map unopposed) until the part of the match thats usually deciding comes around (6 minute mark). Either way, if he trys to kill a significant amount of nodes he'll be out of the field for a while - and heck, a node breaks about even with the res it takes to put up in the time a single fade swipes it down. In short, his low damage/sec nibbling on nodes in midgame isn't a gamebreaker - and if it really bothers you, just go pressure a Hive. You either get a hive kill now, or all Fades will swarm over to the pressure - either dying or simply being off your RTs, letting 1-2 spare marines walk around the map and recap or do whatever the hell it is you want to do so badly.
Okay, enough talk. The reason Fades are effective on many pubs :
- Crappy marines that either do more harm to eachother than good in a group, or just can't move in a group in the first place
- Passive comms that bank mostly on electrification and turrets, instead of Hive/RT/Chamber pressure
- The combination of the 2, like a Comms only option being static defense and crawling forward because his marines are slack-jawed no good yokels that wouldn't follow an order if it was "Breath!"
If base defence is too weak, that single attacking fade will screw up a marine attack by destroying tech or forcing a beacon.
Whereas, the 2nd fade will stop marines from doing what they want to. They are fast enough to switch locations to pressure different areas.
But you do have to note that if a fade dies, that's a LOT of pressure taken off the marines. The fade represents a massive boost in the alien "tech level" and its loss can be devastating if too early.
The best way to kill a fade is to have marines that can take hits (armour) and big guns (the damage is too sudden for the fade to react). A fade can hit and run this group. But set a siege outside a hive, and the fade is forced to stay and fight, increasing its chances of getting killed. Just make sure meds, 2ips and a PG are available to keep the pressure up.
I've done games where marines run around with HMGs and shotties and they get owned by fades without doing much. There are others where these big guns are backing up a siege, and up to 3 fades go down in their desperation to save the hive. Just make sure you pressure early, so the fades won't get the time and smart idea of whacking your base and RTs.
The argument is essentially.. "cost has nothing to do with balance as long as they are effective to their cost ratio-wise."
If you'll allow me, I will disprove that via ad absurdum.
If cost doesn't matter so long as they are effective to their cost ratio, then we could invent a new improved NUCLEAR BOMB. If humans get 1000 res, they can do this, and it would kill every alien on the map and perhaps a hive. In my example, the nuclear bomb is effective to its cost ratio. However, I don't think you'll find anyone implementing this anytime soon, because it is so horribly imbalanced. So if you accept this, you must also say that this nuclear bomb is perfectly acceptable to have in a game.
Otherwise, you agree with me that cost DOES have something to do with balance. While 2 HA with upgrades could possibly take out onos, we're talking about 2 players vs 1 player. What if that onos were 2 onos, and decided to attack those 2 players. Then it wouldn't be matched. You could argue, well if humans had 4 humans, they could kill those onos. If you continue this logic, you'll soon run out of human players, while aliens will still have more players that could go onos quite easily.
So I hope you see the fundamental flaw with the balance issue. The way to fix this would be to simply make HAs equals to onos (however you want to do that). HAs can and should cost more (around 100 res to equip), however it would do wonders for balance. The only way for this to work is if they prevented devour with HAs. I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but 1 HA vs 1 onos is not going to be an even match unless there is no devour.
Any questions?