DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
one place to take (not reloc) is hera dres. jsut set down a outpost in reception with siege cover. or even better, (forgot name) if you go from base to the small (was weldable) door to that rt, go up the ladder/elevator, then up there si a perfect siege location. With the new "big" hallways hardly a kharaa passes through in the entire game.
- Rush double and hold it alone or with a buddy. Aliens go "OMG rines are taking double" and focus a large percentage of their attention on double... lightening the load on the rines in other parts of the map.
- Pass through in 2-3 minutes with a squad of 3-4 marines to kill, rape, and pillage whatever alien objects are located inside. Aliens again go "OMG", again setting up a sneaky rambo to set up a PG and TF near a hive so we can hit them where it hurts MORE! at the worst we lose 3-4 rines and distract the aliens for a while, best we take out some RTs as well.
Thought i'd add this experience: I was comming yesterday on ns_origin, the aliens had biodome as starting hive, with lame deluxe in double res. we had furnace side. i decided to siege double res to cripple their economy, since they only had 2 res towers beyond it. it worked superb! only two res h0es (why cant you just write it normally <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->) got a chance to go onos and fade, and they both died fortunately. it also opened up another path to ventilation, though we also used the vent from ore. morale of the story ... >>>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You want do deny double res, nothing more <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone who thinks they have to relocate on any map to win has not commed very long or not learned anything about the game yet. Capping double in the beginning of the game (before anything else) is just not smart. Having a couple rines there to scramble some eggs or to post in the hallway is a good idea though. Your pressure team should beat the aliens there (depending on map).
Turkey22: I don't knwo about you, but relocing to double in ns_mineshaft is one of the best things you can do. No, it's not vital to winning the game, but it makes it much easier. In fact, on mineshaft, MS has to be the worst place for your base. It's nowhere near anything. You have to either get phase quickly or relocate.
Capping double at the beginning isn't smart? that's just rediculous. If teh aliens were kind enough to let you have it free, then cap it! if they put up a tremendous fight, then yeah, go elsewhere.
It's still all about tactical versatility. There is no best way. It's all about doing what's best at that VERY MOMENT.
Press to double early, don't cap. One Gorge mic spamming "OMG THEYRE IN DOUBLE" and the entire alien team will be there in 10 seconds. The rest of the map is now empty. Kharaa aren't respawning to go elsewhere because you aren't killing them. They're being useless, you now control the res.
At about three-five minutes into the game, when Aliens should be trying to put up a hive, harass double. Wham, everyone goes there again. Then they start dropping chambers there to keep marines out. If you make them waste res placing chambers in double, a place where all of your marines are going to steer clear of, that's wasted res on the alien's part. No hive, easily sieged upgrade chambers, and enemies patrolling an area where none of your team is going.
Meanwhile, you have 6-7 res and heavies on the way.
Don't totally agree rush. I'm prone to send in just a few strong grunts, who can hold the double with say 1 armory and an electrified RT. This means minimal res is wasted, because all that is gonna be attacking is maybe the odd skulk or 5, 3 rines can handle 5 skulks, especially if they don't all rush together. It's when the fade(s) come out to play that you really need to e.r.e.c.t(omg) a nice TF and maybe a few turrets. This can only happen if you are hanging on to double by the time sum 1 has 50 res and is attacking. I would probably have assaulted a hive by which time; as opposed to having 3 tough-a$$ marines camp the area. It's always nice to have options though; camp, don't camp :>
The latter is basically just a more elborate, specific version of my previous post.
And btw, Relocation can work if most of the team deffends the relocation site, I have been part of a few excellently executed relocation rushes.
I think specifically <b>not</b> reloacting to double merely for the fact that the aliens will find you is silly. No matter where the marines relocate to, the aliens <b>will</b> find them, it's merely a function of time. The only thoughts in relocation should be: <ul><li>Is the place defendable?</li><li>How much will moving cost us Economically, Tatically, and Strategically?</li><li>How much will it hurt the aliens Economically, Tatically, or Strategically?</li></ul>Quite obviously relocating is done to gain an advantage or in an emergancy, otherwise its a mistake. "Duh", I'm sure you're all thinking. Well thats why I want to point out that relocating to somewhere obvious (double rez) is not as a matter of couse, a bad idea. One could make the argument that relocating to double to not only physically or materially help but, help to sap the aliens morale. As to the matter of the electrified rez nodes; I feel there is no hard and fast rule to it. As with nearly all aspects of the Commander's job, this point must be flexable. Maintaining a steady flow of rez is absolutely vital to the marines, anything that impeeds that (electrification) should be avoided. However in light of the fact that skulks can easily chew through rez nodes, a good Commander should know when its needed to preserve the rez node or deny it to the aliens. Bear in mind that a alien requires 25 rez to cap a node, where a marine node is 15 or 45 depending on the level of investment in it. So if we merely compare the pricing for each side the rez nodes, even electrified, requires 1.3 min or 80 secs (20 rez @ 4 sec/ 1 rez) to make the node a even rez cost. Here I will declare right now, not to get too obsessed about this stlye of comparing costs! This view is only useful in the long term strategic view, the short term costs are <b>vastly</b> different. What this really points out is the large gulf in thinking between tatical and strategic thinking as it pertains to rez economics. Some Commanders rely on short term losses and gains to acheive results while others tend to rely on more long term gains to eventually overwhelm the enemy. Personally, I tend to rely on long-term thinking, this allows me to make tatical blunders or have porr quaity marines but still mantain a sharp advantage. This can be illistrated by a HA train getting destroyed by a lone Onos and skulks while attacking a hive but, not caring as we still hold most of the rez nodes on the map. Which is the best? I don't know. Like most situations, each is unique and no one solution is best. I would rather claim that expierence is by far the best teacher, that despite what we say or type here, it will only resolved by the Commander in the chair.
Sometimes an early sweep n clear through dbl can net you a lot of res from easy alien kills (since most aliens are going to be heading that way).
As others have said, this WILL make aliens rush dbl, so you can send the ninjas round back to siege a hive to hell. Let them camp in dbl, by the time they leave you'll have at least a hive down, and when they're counter rushing you can simply siege dbl to hell.
In fact if you're planning to rush hive, it might be a good idea to rush dbl a bit just to get the aliens stoked. While they're milling around there, you simply hit the furthest hive, and hit it HARD. You can bacon it back to spawn and then rush the opposite hive while the aliens are all over the map wondering what the hell just happened. Guerilla warfare teh win.
My ideal dbl strat is sieging dbl to small pieces (if need be, and only from "safe" terrain) and then putting up two rts before moving on. Strictly solo marine work, while your muscle is elsewhere pressuring hives.
<!--QuoteBegin-_Lost_+Mar 31 2004, 01:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (_Lost_ @ Mar 31 2004, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... This can be illistrated by a HA train getting destroyed by a lone Onos and skulks while attacking a hive but, not caring as we still hold most of the rez nodes on the map. Which is the best? I don't know. Like most situations, each is unique and no one solution is best. I would rather claim that expierence is by far the best teacher, that despite what we say or type here, it will only resolved by the Commander in the chair. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I like your thought process. I think it is important to look at the long-term picture, especially when team skills are ... shall we say ... mixed.
Why don't you extend your thinking on the cost/benefit of the res system. What can you conclude from your extended analysis? Thats where I get off...
Well yes, relocating to dbl res room is usually waste of time. You send 4 marines there, and there 3-5 skulks there waiting for them. Its a slaughter, then theres 1 little skulk who sneaks to MS and gets the CC. Aliens win, gg. But the relocation in some maps are quite useful, with good team. Like ns_hera. Theres 3 nodes right near the double, processing, hera reception and cargo. If the marines cap those 5, it 50% of the RTs already.
Hmmm... extend my thought processes? Well... Let me see.
It seems that the whole concept of long-term stratgeic thinking for Commanding is mostly reduced to rez warfare. Obviously not straight out economic warfare (tarffis are right out) but, merely the simple equations of having a greater rez flow then the aliens for a longer time, then be able to utilize that rez flow into equipment and tatical use. With the centralized rez gathering that the marines possess, this potentially allows the marines to exapnd to key locations rapidly and maintain the momentum. This means that obviously taking and holding more rez for a longer time means you will eventually have all the rez you need to win. There are maps however, where its near impossible to gain a clear economic advantage over the aliens, thus negating this apporach. Remember its not just the amount of rez the marines have its how much <b>more</b> they have over the aliens, to give them the tatical advantage. So you need to gain and hold rez nodes, destroy the alien rez nodes and protect your territory.
To this end I would think that establishing a 'line' of key points would make the best long term sense. This line is really a collection of vital points on the map, double rez, hive, or siege locations. This line should server to deter low level aliens from breaking through this line are attack your rear rez nodes, allow your marines to get to the front quickly, and funnel the alien attacks to managable or expendable locations.
This 'line' would allow all the rear rts to be defended by a remote line of defenses. Spending 30 rts on a single rt to defend it is a bit much but, how much to protect 2 rts? or 3? or more? While creating a phase gate, a tf and turrets might be pricey, it is much better then spending rez on electrifying all the rts all the way back to marine start. Recall, that we are trying to be effcient with our defense costs. Keep in mind that 'patching holes' in this line will invariably cost extra rez but, still it manages to keep the overall costs lower.
Its important to destroy every alien rez node when it becomes viable to do so. Each alien rez nodes costs them 20 rez, well worth the time to kill them if there is time to spare. Its useful to keep in mind that on most alien teams there will be a few people that will not spend any rez on nodes or towers. They will save their rez soley to evolve into high life forms; fades, lerk, or onos. If you are aggresive at keeping the aliens rez poor, the number and frequency of these aliens will be rare. In particular fades and onos should be priority targets when they appear. Not only are they potentially dangerous to your defenses, they are massive concentrations of alien rez that are just begged to be destroyed.
Keeping the pressure on the aliens is also a very important aspect of winning. Taking the fight to the aliens means that they can not take the time to start attacking your defenses. Send marines to destroy their nodes, chambers, and start raiding their hives. Do whatever you need to, to keep the aliens heading to help defend something rather then giving them time to go after you.
As with each plan, there will be problems that arise, whether it is marines not doing their jobs, bad luck, aliens working extremely well together, etc... etc... I can only say use this as a guide for long term fighting. Establish your 'line', keep the pressure on the aliens to keep them off you, and cripple their rez.
OK this is the long term approach as I see it. Of course I did not address at all how the tatical aspects integrate with this. I obviously can't predict that for every game. This is merely attempt to express as plainly as I can what I see what a Comm needs to do to win in a long term game. Secure your nodes, destroy theirs, and keep the pressure on them.
<!--QuoteBegin-_Lost_+Apr 5 2004, 12:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (_Lost_ @ Apr 5 2004, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hmmm... extend my thought processes? Well... Let me see. ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wonderful stuff!
I like you're idea about a core of rez terminals -- ones that you are willing to invest resources to defend, and those which you are going to let the enemy have but you will harass. The alien counter is, of course, to pick some points on the line (midgame) and harass you back.
See, what I'm interested in is trying to formalize a game-theoretic way of making choices about resources: when should you elec? does it ever make sense go to tf? when does it make sense to seige double? how many marines do you waste trying for a particular objective given partial information about the enemy? Most questions could probably answered only probabilistically, however, it seems there should be some basic insights that could be gathered from such an analysis. Has anyone done this for games like Starcraft? Or NS?
There is of course another tricky problem. Lets say you have figured out what you should do given a particular situation, knowing certain things about the past. Now you have the problem of disseminating information from the current situation and deciding whether or not you are in a particular case from your analysis. Then you have to make time to go through all the procedures of your play tactic while your team yells for shirtguns and MT (which are also necessary).
One way to deal with this would be to create lieutenants among the grunts who are combatants but also can move around and drop <i>some</i> things (read, rts and possibly tfs, turrents, ammo, health) instead of waiting for the comm to do so. Just a thought.
I prefer to lock down map areas at good choke points. That way I can pile the resources of three minibases into one area, making it very easy to defend. In fact, you could spend the resources of two smaller bases and just save the third.
However, you need to keep attacking. Keeping a bigger res flow is all well and good, but if you spend poorly or if you're tight with the cash then you're in a world of hurt, since Kharaa can use a VERY fast rush which can leave your base in tatters - meaning you can't spend the res you hoarded up.
I have been in games where the comm has been talking about saving res, getting upgrades, but the aliens mounted a fast rush and hit all our upgrades. What looked like a solid win had been turned around in the space of a minute. Thankfully our retaliation managed to drain what little resources the aliens had, and we managed to claw it back.
Just a thing to note whenever you're managing your income.
I like doubles, since trying to get a whole bunch of rts elsewhere leaves them wide open to a "bunch-o-skulk" chowdown. It is better to consolidate at double and expand from there. Trying to defend 3-4 rts centralized is far easier than trying to defend 4-5 spread out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is better to consolidate at double and expand from there. Trying to defend 3-4 rts centralized is far easier than trying to defend 4-5 spread out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One part of that is true. It IS better to defend centralised RTs, which is why I favour locking down 2-3 corridors which lead to RT heavy areas. There's a lot of places on the map where the terrain is favourable AND you're close to 3 or more RTs. Double ends up a deathtrap for most people who try and consolidate there.
A lot of games end up with the marines camped in dbl, laming it up with any res they can save, while aliens take the rest of the map and usually about an hour later will finally have whittled down the marines.
On most maps consolidating at dbl puts you in a hard to win position since you're totally cut off, with alien friendly vents all round, bad terrain, and no real way to expand since any outgoing train will be easily surrounded and cut off. And lets not forget that a lot of alien players deliberately target dbl purely because there's ALWAYS some marine trying to build the RTs there. I just think dbl nodes are massive res holes. They're nice to have, yes, but all too soon you fall into the trap of just trying to protect the nodes, and instead have a whole relocation there.... which leaves you cut off and killing time until the aliens get 3rd hive and xeno your base to small pieces.
I've noticed another method to maintain the long term economic superiority over the aliens. Yesterday I was playing on a server whos name escapes me at the moment. We managed to have a string of Commanders that were either intentionally counter-productive (selling Everything), or just weren't up to the task. At least the 2nd Comm was trying but, we really hit our stride with our 3rd Comm who went by the name "Jane". Whether this was a planned thing or it just happned I don't really know but, the results were quite good. Nearly everyone left marine spawn and just went to rt to rt to rt. We cap one rez node, we move on to the next. Because we had nearly all our team roving in a group we took down every skulk, ot and alien rt we came across. We never really worried about preserving our rts much, it was a pure momentum thing. This had the result of costing the aliens early rez node and the rez it costs to put them down, which is [i]really expensive[\i] for them early on, and giving them a LOT of rez nodes they need to chew through before they can come back. It might seem bad to leave the rs unguarded (and un-electrified) but, it worked out fine actually. The few skulks that did ignore our 'light train' and started chewing on rts, took a while to do it. Usually we would cap another one before they finished killing one. Plus respawning marines would usually run by the rts that were under attack and protect them.
I was on both ends of this type of strategy, it looks to be really effective so far as I've seen. Maybe we just were working extremly well together as marines, maybe the aliens never did get their act together.... But this could mean a nice cheaper wway of maintaining an economic edge over the aliens, that is basically the idea of a constant rt rush, even to the extent of ignoring locking down hives. The aliens NEED rts, RTs by kills don't earn enough rts to sustain them. As long as your spawn is protect modestly with mines maybe a tf, there shouldn't be any problems. This is by far the cheapest way to maintain the economic lead over the aliens, not spending rez on static defenses at all. I like it a lot but, I am thinking it may not work in all maps, nor aliens teams....
If it's a large game, I elec teh hive nodes, then the forward nodes, gradually moving back to the ones closest to MS. Then you have like 6 nodes, all elect, and safe until the aliens get fades. that' like 5 mins of free res.
In small games, I dole out 2-3 shotties, which speeds up the killing of rts, and provides some nice firepower. With all the nodes, I can get phases early, and secure some hives with pg/farm. And since about half teh team has shotties, they can deal with fades as well.
either way, I can farm up two hives or a hive and double.
It seems rather obivous but, I actually see many games where Comms like to secure a set group of nodes and hold them rather then venture out after more. I guess they prefer having a rez in the hand rather then 2 in the bush. I often see Comm's trying to merely hold what they have rather then venturing about. What I was attempting to illistrate in the other post was the idea of constant rt capping and killing, to the exclusion of almost everything else. Not just simple capping on the way to the alien's hive. But the fact of ignoring defending areas and just hack and slash rez nodes constantly to keep the aliens dirt poor.
I posted this idea basically to point out to contrast in the 'line' of defenses idea that I posted above. I actually don't really care for the 'line' strategy too much, relying on static defenses at all generally will cause trouble. I like much more the idea of constantly attacking, there are a few reasons think Rommel was a much better general then Montgomery, and here's one... The only issue with this strategy, like most of them, is getting your marines to work together and not have crappy aim/luck.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kobayashi+Apr 8 2004, 09:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kobayashi @ Apr 8 2004, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I thought everyone did that....
If it's a large game, I elec teh hive nodes, then the forward nodes, gradually moving back to the ones closest to MS. Then you have like 6 nodes, all elect, and safe until the aliens get fades. that' like 5 mins of free res.
In small games, I dole out 2-3 shotties, which speeds up the killing of rts, and provides some nice firepower. With all the nodes, I can get phases early, and secure some hives with pg/farm. And since about half teh team has shotties, they can deal with fades as well.
either way, I can farm up two hives or a hive and double. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone <i>tries </i>to do that. Often this approach can be bogged down by ammo-humping or too much building at MS (both sad to see).
I agree that this momentum strategy is great for early game. The only strong counter is to have a skulk train that can take them down faster than you can put them up but aliens <i>rarely </i>behave this way.
Unfortunately in the long run (5min), when fades emerge, RTs can be taken down very quickly and your 'light train' (which I think is a great strategy btw) become less and less effective.
But I think this discussion is productive in the sense that we are gathering some consensus about the approaches that need to be employed in each phase of the game.
The rolling attack does work, however it can stopped by a concerted alien rush, or at the very least it sends most of the marines back to MS - allowing your reinforcement wave to rip up what remains of their forward group. As long as aliens aggressively attack, they force the rines back to MS. In the meantime, one or two gorges can cap nodes that are in alien friendly areas, while the bulk of the team keep pressuring the rines.
Another option is to rush MS and take it down, forcing the rines to relocate or return to base.... unfortunately a good team will be expanding near a juicy relocation spot and will settle in very quickly. I prefer to keep marines in spawn, where they're arguably at their easiest to dislodge.
However, back on the marine POV, the LA train has won games in under 2 minutes, its not a strat to be taken lightly. In fact, other useful strats like slash and burn usually involve basic LA marines going out and raising merry hell with their cheap replaceable selves.
Comments
jsut set down a outpost in reception with siege cover. or even better, (forgot name) if you go from base to the small (was weldable) door to that rt, go up the ladder/elevator, then up there si a perfect siege location. With the new "big" hallways hardly a kharaa passes through in the entire game.
- Rush double and hold it alone or with a buddy. Aliens go "OMG rines are taking double" and focus a large percentage of their attention on double... lightening the load on the rines in other parts of the map.
- Pass through in 2-3 minutes with a squad of 3-4 marines to kill, rape, and pillage whatever alien objects are located inside. Aliens again go "OMG", again setting up a sneaky rambo to set up a PG and TF near a hive so we can hit them where it hurts MORE! at the worst we lose 3-4 rines and distract the aliens for a while, best we take out some RTs as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You want do deny double res, nothing more <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Capping double at the beginning isn't smart? that's just rediculous. If teh aliens were kind enough to let you have it free, then cap it! if they put up a tremendous fight, then yeah, go elsewhere.
It's still all about tactical versatility. There is no best way. It's all about doing what's best at that VERY MOMENT.
At about three-five minutes into the game, when Aliens should be trying to put up a hive, harass double. Wham, everyone goes there again. Then they start dropping chambers there to keep marines out. If you make them waste res placing chambers in double, a place where all of your marines are going to steer clear of, that's wasted res on the alien's part. No hive, easily sieged upgrade chambers, and enemies patrolling an area where none of your team is going.
Meanwhile, you have 6-7 res and heavies on the way.
Teh Winnarz0rs - Marines!
It's when the fade(s) come out to play that you really need to e.r.e.c.t(omg) a nice TF and maybe a few turrets. This can only happen if you are hanging on to double by the time sum 1 has 50 res and is attacking. I would probably have assaulted a hive by which time; as opposed to having 3 tough-a$$ marines camp the area. It's always nice to have options though; camp, don't camp :>
The latter is basically just a more elborate, specific version of my previous post.
And btw, Relocation can work if most of the team deffends the relocation site, I have been part of a few excellently executed relocation rushes.
Tho have to say, never won a game on mineshaft that involved keeping a base in spawn..... not against a competent alien team anyhow.
As to the matter of the electrified rez nodes; I feel there is no hard and fast rule to it. As with nearly all aspects of the Commander's job, this point must be flexable. Maintaining a steady flow of rez is absolutely vital to the marines, anything that impeeds that (electrification) should be avoided. However in light of the fact that skulks can easily chew through rez nodes, a good Commander should know when its needed to preserve the rez node or deny it to the aliens. Bear in mind that a alien requires 25 rez to cap a node, where a marine node is 15 or 45 depending on the level of investment in it. So if we merely compare the pricing for each side the rez nodes, even electrified, requires 1.3 min or 80 secs (20 rez @ 4 sec/ 1 rez) to make the node a even rez cost. Here I will declare right now, not to get too obsessed about this stlye of comparing costs! This view is only useful in the long term strategic view, the short term costs are <b>vastly</b> different.
What this really points out is the large gulf in thinking between tatical and strategic thinking as it pertains to rez economics. Some Commanders rely on short term losses and gains to acheive results while others tend to rely on more long term gains to eventually overwhelm the enemy. Personally, I tend to rely on long-term thinking, this allows me to make tatical blunders or have porr quaity marines but still mantain a sharp advantage. This can be illistrated by a HA train getting destroyed by a lone Onos and skulks while attacking a hive but, not caring as we still hold most of the rez nodes on the map.
Which is the best? I don't know. Like most situations, each is unique and no one solution is best. I would rather claim that expierence is by far the best teacher, that despite what we say or type here, it will only resolved by the Commander in the chair.
As others have said, this WILL make aliens rush dbl, so you can send the ninjas round back to siege a hive to hell. Let them camp in dbl, by the time they leave you'll have at least a hive down, and when they're counter rushing you can simply siege dbl to hell.
In fact if you're planning to rush hive, it might be a good idea to rush dbl a bit just to get the aliens stoked. While they're milling around there, you simply hit the furthest hive, and hit it HARD. You can bacon it back to spawn and then rush the opposite hive while the aliens are all over the map wondering what the hell just happened. Guerilla warfare teh win.
My ideal dbl strat is sieging dbl to small pieces (if need be, and only from "safe" terrain) and then putting up two rts before moving on. Strictly solo marine work, while your muscle is elsewhere pressuring hives.
Edit - few extra thoughts added.
Which is the best? I don't know. Like most situations, each is unique and no one solution is best. I would rather claim that expierence is by far the best teacher, that despite what we say or type here, it will only resolved by the Commander in the chair.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like your thought process. I think it is important to look at the long-term picture, especially when team skills are ... shall we say ... mixed.
Why don't you extend your thinking on the cost/benefit of the res system. What can you conclude from your extended analysis? Thats where I get off...
But the relocation in some maps are quite useful, with good team. Like ns_hera. Theres 3 nodes right near the double, processing, hera reception and cargo. If the marines cap those 5, it 50% of the RTs already.
It seems that the whole concept of long-term stratgeic thinking for Commanding is mostly reduced to rez warfare. Obviously not straight out economic warfare (tarffis are right out) but, merely the simple equations of having a greater rez flow then the aliens for a longer time, then be able to utilize that rez flow into equipment and tatical use. With the centralized rez gathering that the marines possess, this potentially allows the marines to exapnd to key locations rapidly and maintain the momentum. This means that obviously taking and holding more rez for a longer time means you will eventually have all the rez you need to win. There are maps however, where its near impossible to gain a clear economic advantage over the aliens, thus negating this apporach. Remember its not just the amount of rez the marines have its how much <b>more</b> they have over the aliens, to give them the tatical advantage. So you need to gain and hold rez nodes, destroy the alien rez nodes and protect your territory.
To this end I would think that establishing a 'line' of key points would make the best long term sense. This line is really a collection of vital points on the map, double rez, hive, or siege locations. This line should server to deter low level aliens from breaking through this line are attack your rear rez nodes, allow your marines to get to the front quickly, and funnel the alien attacks to managable or expendable locations.
This 'line' would allow all the rear rts to be defended by a remote line of defenses. Spending 30 rts on a single rt to defend it is a bit much but, how much to protect 2 rts? or 3? or more? While creating a phase gate, a tf and turrets might be pricey, it is much better then spending rez on electrifying all the rts all the way back to marine start. Recall, that we are trying to be effcient with our defense costs. Keep in mind that 'patching holes' in this line will invariably cost extra rez but, still it manages to keep the overall costs lower.
Its important to destroy every alien rez node when it becomes viable to do so. Each alien rez nodes costs them 20 rez, well worth the time to kill them if there is time to spare. Its useful to keep in mind that on most alien teams there will be a few people that will not spend any rez on nodes or towers. They will save their rez soley to evolve into high life forms; fades, lerk, or onos. If you are aggresive at keeping the aliens rez poor, the number and frequency of these aliens will be rare. In particular fades and onos should be priority targets when they appear. Not only are they potentially dangerous to your defenses, they are massive concentrations of alien rez that are just begged to be destroyed.
Keeping the pressure on the aliens is also a very important aspect of winning. Taking the fight to the aliens means that they can not take the time to start attacking your defenses. Send marines to destroy their nodes, chambers, and start raiding their hives. Do whatever you need to, to keep the aliens heading to help defend something rather then giving them time to go after you.
As with each plan, there will be problems that arise, whether it is marines not doing their jobs, bad luck, aliens working extremely well together, etc... etc... I can only say use this as a guide for long term fighting. Establish your 'line', keep the pressure on the aliens to keep them off you, and cripple their rez.
OK this is the long term approach as I see it. Of course I did not address at all how the tatical aspects integrate with this. I obviously can't predict that for every game. This is merely attempt to express as plainly as I can what I see what a Comm needs to do to win in a long term game. Secure your nodes, destroy theirs, and keep the pressure on them.
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Wonderful stuff!
I like you're idea about a core of rez terminals -- ones that you are willing to invest resources to defend, and those which you are going to let the enemy have but you will harass. The alien counter is, of course, to pick some points on the line (midgame) and harass you back.
See, what I'm interested in is trying to formalize a game-theoretic way of making choices about resources: when should you elec? does it ever make sense go to tf? when does it make sense to seige double? how many marines do you waste trying for a particular objective given partial information about the enemy? Most questions could probably answered only probabilistically, however, it seems there should be some basic insights that could be gathered from such an analysis. Has anyone done this for games like Starcraft? Or NS?
There is of course another tricky problem. Lets say you have figured out what you should do given a particular situation, knowing certain things about the past. Now you have the problem of disseminating information from the current situation and deciding whether or not you are in a particular case from your analysis. Then you have to make time to go through all the procedures of your play tactic while your team yells for shirtguns and MT (which are also necessary).
One way to deal with this would be to create lieutenants among the grunts who are combatants but also can move around and drop <i>some</i> things (read, rts and possibly tfs, turrents, ammo, health) instead of waiting for the comm to do so. Just a thought.
-stooop
However, you need to keep attacking. Keeping a bigger res flow is all well and good, but if you spend poorly or if you're tight with the cash then you're in a world of hurt, since Kharaa can use a VERY fast rush which can leave your base in tatters - meaning you can't spend the res you hoarded up.
I have been in games where the comm has been talking about saving res, getting upgrades, but the aliens mounted a fast rush and hit all our upgrades. What looked like a solid win had been turned around in the space of a minute. Thankfully our retaliation managed to drain what little resources the aliens had, and we managed to claw it back.
Just a thing to note whenever you're managing your income.
It is better to consolidate at double and expand from there. Trying to defend 3-4 rts centralized is far easier than trying to defend 4-5 spread out.
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One part of that is true. It IS better to defend centralised RTs, which is why I favour locking down 2-3 corridors which lead to RT heavy areas. There's a lot of places on the map where the terrain is favourable AND you're close to 3 or more RTs. Double ends up a deathtrap for most people who try and consolidate there.
A lot of games end up with the marines camped in dbl, laming it up with any res they can save, while aliens take the rest of the map and usually about an hour later will finally have whittled down the marines.
On most maps consolidating at dbl puts you in a hard to win position since you're totally cut off, with alien friendly vents all round, bad terrain, and no real way to expand since any outgoing train will be easily surrounded and cut off. And lets not forget that a lot of alien players deliberately target dbl purely because there's ALWAYS some marine trying to build the RTs there. I just think dbl nodes are massive res holes. They're nice to have, yes, but all too soon you fall into the trap of just trying to protect the nodes, and instead have a whole relocation there.... which leaves you cut off and killing time until the aliens get 3rd hive and xeno your base to small pieces.
Its just the way the map is there its real hard to defend as marine.
But if you DO get double on mineshaft, it's practically gg, marines win.
I was on both ends of this type of strategy, it looks to be really effective so far as I've seen. Maybe we just were working extremly well together as marines, maybe the aliens never did get their act together.... But this could mean a nice cheaper wway of maintaining an economic edge over the aliens, that is basically the idea of a constant rt rush, even to the extent of ignoring locking down hives. The aliens NEED rts, RTs by kills don't earn enough rts to sustain them. As long as your spawn is protect modestly with mines maybe a tf, there shouldn't be any problems. This is by far the cheapest way to maintain the economic lead over the aliens, not spending rez on static defenses at all. I like it a lot but, I am thinking it may not work in all maps, nor aliens teams....
Thoughts? Comments? Queries? Snide Remarks?
If it's a large game, I elec teh hive nodes, then the forward nodes, gradually moving back to the ones closest to MS. Then you have like 6 nodes, all elect, and safe until the aliens get fades. that' like 5 mins of free res.
In small games, I dole out 2-3 shotties, which speeds up the killing of rts, and provides some nice firepower. With all the nodes, I can get phases early, and secure some hives with pg/farm. And since about half teh team has shotties, they can deal with fades as well.
either way, I can farm up two hives or a hive and double.
I posted this idea basically to point out to contrast in the 'line' of defenses idea that I posted above. I actually don't really care for the 'line' strategy too much, relying on static defenses at all generally will cause trouble. I like much more the idea of constantly attacking, there are a few reasons think Rommel was a much better general then Montgomery, and here's one... The only issue with this strategy, like most of them, is getting your marines to work together and not have crappy aim/luck.
If it's a large game, I elec teh hive nodes, then the forward nodes, gradually moving back to the ones closest to MS. Then you have like 6 nodes, all elect, and safe until the aliens get fades. that' like 5 mins of free res.
In small games, I dole out 2-3 shotties, which speeds up the killing of rts, and provides some nice firepower. With all the nodes, I can get phases early, and secure some hives with pg/farm. And since about half teh team has shotties, they can deal with fades as well.
either way, I can farm up two hives or a hive and double. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone <i>tries </i>to do that. Often this approach can be bogged down by ammo-humping or too much building at MS (both sad to see).
I agree that this momentum strategy is great for early game. The only strong counter is to have a skulk train that can take them down faster than you can put them up but aliens <i>rarely </i>behave this way.
Unfortunately in the long run (5min), when fades emerge, RTs can be taken down very quickly and your 'light train' (which I think is a great strategy btw) become less and less effective.
But I think this discussion is productive in the sense that we are gathering some consensus about the approaches that need to be employed in each phase of the game.
-stooopid
The rolling attack does work, however it can stopped by a concerted alien rush, or at the very least it sends most of the marines back to MS - allowing your reinforcement wave to rip up what remains of their forward group. As long as aliens aggressively attack, they force the rines back to MS. In the meantime, one or two gorges can cap nodes that are in alien friendly areas, while the bulk of the team keep pressuring the rines.
Another option is to rush MS and take it down, forcing the rines to relocate or return to base.... unfortunately a good team will be expanding near a juicy relocation spot and will settle in very quickly. I prefer to keep marines in spawn, where they're arguably at their easiest to dislodge.
However, back on the marine POV, the LA train has won games in under 2 minutes, its not a strat to be taken lightly. In fact, other useful strats like slash and burn usually involve basic LA marines going out and raising merry hell with their cheap replaceable selves.