Robotics

EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
I'm seeing the Robotics factory becoming less and less useful. With welders it's come to a point where as comm I would rather just have players welding and running through the phase gate. It's just not worth the res investment, I don't even bother building them now. I think one way to fix this would be to lower turret costs seeing as how you need to put a few down just to make it effective, and that res could almost always be better used elsewhere. Even with the situations where the mac is useful, it's just not worth it.
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Comments

  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    MACs build while the players nearby can have their guns out and defend them. Just like ARCs kill hives while the players use their guns to defend those. They both come from the robotics factory.

    When the metagame evolves more and people get better at combat, you'll see things like robotics factories and forward shades/crags being used a lot more all the time.

    NS isn't supposed to be about whole teams rushing down a hive in 5 seconds in the late game.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 28 2012, 08:34 PM) »
    MACs build while the players nearby can have their guns out and defend them. Just like ARCs kill hives while the players use their guns to defend those. They both come from the robotics factory.

    When the metagame evolves more and people get better at combat, you'll see things like robotics factories and forward shades/crags being used a lot more all the time.

    NS isn't supposed to be about whole teams rushing down a hive in 5 seconds in the late game.


    Except it's not worth sending macs when one player can build as fast as they do. Just like it's not worth 20 res a piece to build arcs. It's definitely not worth the res for turrets.
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Feb 28 2012, 10:39 PM) »
    Except it's not worth sending macs when one player can build as fast as they do. Just like it's not worth 20 res a piece to build arcs. It's definitely not worth the res for turrets.


    I disagree. I think it's very much worth it, but only in the right setting. If you have a server full of low skill players, you can just run up and gun down a hive like it's not there. If you're against a really good alien team, you might need some ARCs to break a good defense safely/cost effectively.

    Same thing with MACs - against a good team, you can't send 1 guy to repair a res tower because he will die and then the res tower will die. Suddenly you're sending 2+ people just to repair a res tower. On the other hand, you could send 1 player and 1 MAC. With the speed upgrade, the MAC can outrun a skulk on the ground. It's like an extra player that only does one thing, while your players do the *other* things. It's cheaper than a shotgun!

    20 res is really really small. Especially when you can keep a full team with bought guns/armors alive because of using them. It's a matter of perspective, and I don't think anyone has seen everything this game has to offer yet (even in its imbalanced developmental state).

    As for your original suggestion, lowering the cost of turrets means they have to be made a lot worse as well. Eventually they'll be as bad as hydras, and at that point you may as well not have them in the game. You have to be careful with suggestions like that, especially since turrets are pretty much the least important part of the robotics tree right now (which is why I focus on how cool MACs/ARCs are).
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Fat_Man_Little_CoatFat_Man_Little_Coat Join Date: 2003-12-02 Member: 23857Posts: 196Members
    I concur with Internet Explorer.

    Macs, Turrets and Arcs essentially increase the amount of units you have at your disposal in the game. Those units allow your marine players to be more aggressive, while they go around and essential act as back up.

    Do you concur?
    Damn straight I'm a foul beast. Don't you forget it.
  • ÒŗăNģёÒŗăNģё Join Date: 2012-02-09 Member: 144437Posts: 133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Turrets are helpful as always and so are ARCs. Those pesky hydras or whips or anything else that marines cant quite reach get demolished by the ARC.
    It seems they have become mid to late game tech now though.. but a lot of commanders rarely used them in the first place.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (Fat_Man_Little_Coat @ Feb 28 2012, 08:54 PM) »
    I concur with Internet Explorer.

    Macs, Turrets and Arcs essentially increase the amount of units you have at your disposal in the game. Those units allow your marine players to be more aggressive, while they go around and essential act as back up.

    Do you concur?


    Not really, they COULD be used in that regard, if not for the fact that the cost is not worth the benefit. The only time I use turrets or arcs is when the game has already been flipped far in the marine favor and I have res to waste.
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Feb 28 2012, 11:11 PM) »
    Not really, they COULD be used in that regard, if not for the fact that the cost is not worth the benefit. The only time I use turrets or arcs is when the game has already been flipped far in the marine favor and I have res to waste.


    How do you know the cost isnt worth the benefit?
    If I take 3 ARCs for 60 res and blow down a hive that cost 75 in like a minute, it's pretty clear to me that it was worth the trouble. I do that a lot, too!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 28 2012, 10:43 PM) »
    How do you know the cost isnt worth the benefit?
    If I take 3 ARCs for 60 res and blow down a hive that cost 75 in like a minute, it's pretty clear to me that it was worth the trouble. I do that a lot, too!

    because I could have used that 60 res to upgrade armor or weapons, get jetpacks, expand, drop a RT, etc. I very rarely see arcs be truly successful, and when they are it's usually at a point where we were going to win anyway. Most arcs end up destroyed before they can do any real good. I just had a game where we were pretty even and the comm tried to run three arcs toward us with plenty or rines escorting. They were killed outside the hive and the arcs destroyed before they could kill anything important. The comm had wasted 60 res.

    I think it's much more effective to just keep the rines organized and moving.
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    You're sorta making my point by saying you haven't seen an effective ARC push, though, right?
    I mean, how do you know it sucks if you haven't seen it when it works? (and it does~)
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 28 2012, 10:52 PM) »
    You're sorta making my point by saying you haven't seen an effective ARC push, though, right?
    I mean, how do you know it sucks if you haven't seen it when it works? (and it does~)


    That logic is horrible.

    Because I have see the vast majority of arc rushes crushed by Aliens means that it must be effective? It's effective in specific situations, but the majority of times you would be better off investing it in something better. If you're all teched up, then fine, build arcs and go.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Posts: 1,134Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Feb 28 2012, 11:55 PM) »
    That logic is horrible.

    Because I have see the vast majority of arc rushes crushed by Aliens means that it must be effective? It's effective in specific situations, but the majority of times you would be better off investing it in something better. If you're all teched up, then fine, build arcs and go.



    ARCs are not early game, they are late game siege breakers. They will not and are not supposed to show up every single game, I have seen them used many times during late game. And they were often quite effective.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    I didn't say that the absence of good ARC pushes means they're effective. Of course that's shoddy logic.

    What I'm saying is that you don't know enough to say that they're bad based on a couple anecdotes from pubs full of new players.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Feb 29 2012, 12:55 AM) »
    That logic is horrible.

    Because I have see the vast majority of arc rushes crushed by Aliens means that it must be effective? It's effective in specific situations, but the majority of times you would be better off investing it in something better. If you're all teched up, then fine, build arcs and go.


    it's not effective usually because the marine commander doesn't communicate with the rest of his team in a way that lets the push be effective.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 28 2012, 11:04 PM) »
    I didn't say that the absence of good ARC pushes means they're effective. Of course that's shoddy logic.

    What I'm saying is that you don't know enough to say that they're bad based on a couple anecdotes from pubs full of new players.


    By that same logic you don't know enough to say they are effective.

    I've seen people do it very often, and almost always it fails. So I am trying to give suggestions to make robotics strategies more effective.
  • blinblin Join Date: 2011-07-20 Member: 111290Posts: 148Members
    beta, people, nothing to see here, everyone goes home, it is just beta and everything will be ballanced and re-ballanced hundred more times in the nearest future

    PS ARCs rule!
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Feb 29 2012, 01:06 AM) »
    By that same logic you don't know enough to say they are effective.

    I've seen people do it very often, and almost always it fails. So I am trying to give suggestions to make robotics strategies more effective.


    No, because I've seen them be effective. We're not just talking about some pure abstract logical argument here. If I can't convince you by describing the right way to use them (that you've never seen before), and explaining basic cost efficiency setups, then all I can do is say that I've seen them be useful and you haven't.

    I'm gonna check out of the thread now because I don't feel like doing high school debate class for 5 pages.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 28 2012, 11:14 PM) »
    No, because I've seen them be effective. We're not just talking about some pure abstract logical argument here. If I can't convince you by describing the right way to use them (that you've never seen before), and explaining basic cost efficiency setups, then all I can do is say that I've seen them be useful and you haven't.

    I'm gonna check out of the thread now because I don't feel like doing high school debate class for 5 pages.


    All I've seen you say is "I've seen it work, it works, trust me it works because I've seen it work."

    I have seen so many comms try to use arcs and claim they know what they are doing. You expect me to simply take your word for it when you don't even describe this perfect use. Because chances are, I HAVE seen it done and seen it fail. I will look forward to playing Alien against you so I can see this special arc strategy you apparently covet.
  • Bobo44Bobo44 Join Date: 2011-11-02 Member: 130749Posts: 22Members
    try sending your whole marine team to attack our hive. a smart alien team will know how to react to this. one to engage the huge marine team thats attack the hive, the other to hit your base because of lack of defense. once sentries are known to be non existant and you don't have a robotics factory, prepare for cordinated phase gate camp, obseratory attack, and infantry portal camp to force you to beacon.
  • Bobo44Bobo44 Join Date: 2011-11-02 Member: 130749Posts: 22Members
    those who doubt the sentries haven't seen fades camp infantry portals. you can have lvl 3 armor and lvl 3 weapons but the moment you pop out your pretty much dead. the sentries might not kill the fade but it prevents permanent infantry portal camping. 1-2 sentries is good (covering power node, infantry portal, and each other), then just sell your robotics factory to focus on upgrades.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (Bobo44 @ Feb 28 2012, 11:59 PM) »
    those who doubt the sentries haven't seen fades camp infantry portals. you can have lvl 3 armor and lvl 3 weapons but the moment you pop out your pretty much dead. the sentries might not kill the fade but it prevents permanent infantry portal camping. 1-2 sentries is good (covering power node, infantry portal, and each other), then just sell your robotics factory to focus on upgrades.


    This usually happens when the game is already been decided, if not I would just beacon. I would rather use the res to beacon and send in one force at the hive. If you split your alien force like that then the hive will go down and I will beacon them right back to base.
  • Bobo44Bobo44 Join Date: 2011-11-02 Member: 130749Posts: 22Members
    QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Feb 29 2012, 01:11 AM) »
    This usually happens when the game is already been decided, if not I would just beacon. I would rather use the res to beacon and send in one force at the hive. If you split your alien force like that then the hive will go down and I will beacon them right back to base.


    in the scenarios i've played, doesn't work like that. a bite causes 6% dmg to observatory, its gonna go down soon, you beacon and save your base or you take down our 2nd hive and we take down your main base. a small inferior force can hold off a superior force when on tenable land. example : 2 gorges that spammed hydras in proper areas that are choke points while group healing the hydras together can hold off 4-6 marines for some time.

    remember the victory condition, you need not kill all the marines, only their last command station or their last infantry portal when all power is out. split forces is always crucial. it allows for pincer attack with the tunnels, having one force engage while the 2nd force hit them from behind.

    i've seen it happen so much, the comm is ignorant or the soldiers don't listen, they leave no defences at all and leave the base. what do you think will happen, if you have no defensive weapons or a marine or 2 guarding it, the aliens will control you. they force you to beacon is a defense in itself of the 2nd hive. the observatory takes huge dmg, and competent commander trapped in that situation would beacon or lose their final chance to beacon. 1 sentrie and 1 marine in a base can hold off 2-4 skulks.

    remember, victory coniditions.

    in war, numbers alone confer no advantage. you must not advanced relying or sheer military power. Sun Tzu.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (Bobo44 @ Feb 29 2012, 12:34 AM) »
    in the scenarios i've played, doesn't work like that. a bite causes 6% dmg to observatory, its gonna go down soon, you beacon and save your base or you take down our 2nd hive and we take down your main base. a small inferior force can hold off a superior force when on tenable land. example : 2 gorges that spammed hydras in proper areas that are choke points while group healing the hydras together can hold off 4-6 marines for some time.

    remember the victory condition, you need not kill all the marines, only their last command station or their last infantry portal when all power is out. split forces is always crucial. it allows for pincer attack with the tunnels, having one force engage while the 2nd force hit them from behind.

    i've seen it happen so much, the comm is ignorant or the soldiers don't listen, they leave no defences at all and leave the base. what do you think will happen, if you have no defensive weapons or a marine or 2 guarding it, the aliens will control you. they force you to beacon is a defense in itself of the 2nd hive. the observatory takes huge dmg, and competent commander trapped in that situation would beacon or lose their final chance to beacon. 1 sentrie and 1 marine in a base can hold off 2-4 skulks.

    remember, victory coniditions.

    in war, numbers alone confer no advantage. you must not advanced relying or sheer military power. Sun Tzu.


    You're assuming you've built up your whole 2nd hive and you also have at least one fade ready at our base. If I am comm I know as soon as a hive is goign up, or even before it is and am pushing then. If you already have the hive built up that strong and have fades harassing our base then I would be teching and trying to choke the other team out of res.

    What would happen is I would hit you before you can built that much of a defense, and if a fade attacks our base, I wait as long as possible, beacon, kill the fade, then have them walk right on through that PG again and hit the hive. Beacon with an aggressive and well organised marine team would eliminate the need for turrets mid game. Later on they may be useful though. You think my strategy revolves purely on sheer numbers, but it doesn't. It works on mobilizing those numbers effectively. IT doesn't take long at all for the marines to either kill the base, or kill the few defenses.
  • GadxGadx Join Date: 2003-03-22 Member: 14788Posts: 128Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Running 10 ARCS into a hive that is covered in crags and hydras is super effective. Turrets and ARCS are for the late game though.
    Rehevkor in game
  • DarkOmenDarkOmen Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7148Posts: 600Members
    An organized ARC push with phase gate backup can be CRUSHINGLY effective!
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Posts: 646Members
    gorge bilebomb counters robotics factory and everything it produces a bit too well atm.. thats another issue with robo fact right now

    before the new mega bilebombs, arcs were kinda still usable in situations
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Posts: 1,352Members, Constellation
    The meta game is still developing. Right here. I think it's too early to answer the questions raised here.
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory
  • cake.cake. Join Date: 2012-01-12 Member: 140165Posts: 158Members
    I don't find this topic a viable argument. There is simply no arguing to the fact that macs and arcs are the way to go during late game. During any stage of the game, actually. Anything to take off the burden of building off of marines, is worth it. Any marine is a valuable addition to the force, even the one with 10fps. You just can't have late game marines doing anything else but pushing.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (cake. @ Feb 29 2012, 07:07 AM) »
    During any stage of the game, actually.


    I can see the argument for end game when you have a large surplus of res, but how are arcs efficient mid game?
  • Bobo44Bobo44 Join Date: 2011-11-02 Member: 130749Posts: 22Members
    QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Feb 29 2012, 01:44 AM) »
    You're assuming you've built up your whole 2nd hive and you also have at least one fade ready at our base. If I am comm I know as soon as a hive is goign up, or even before it is and am pushing then. If you already have the hive built up that strong and have fades harassing our base then I would be teching and trying to choke the other team out of res.

    What would happen is I would hit you before you can built that much of a defense, and if a fade attacks our base, I wait as long as possible, beacon, kill the fade, then have them walk right on through that PG again and hit the hive. Beacon with an aggressive and well organised marine team would eliminate the need for turrets mid game. Later on they may be useful though. You think my strategy revolves purely on sheer numbers, but it doesn't. It works on mobilizing those numbers effectively. IT doesn't take long at all for the marines to either kill the base, or kill the few defenses.


    during 2nd hive construction the gorges can have a decent defense and hold strong with 1 whip.

    assuming the fade is availible and in the base of the marines, you ain't gonna kill a amateur-decent fade player. fades don't die unless they are usually new fades or greedy fades. i'll harass your base soo good as a fade you'll wish i wasn't in the server or you'll wish the fade is nerfed. i have extremely good energy management, i know target priority, and mines are easy to detonate without any damage incurred on me. i'm the fade player that makes marine say "fades are overpowered", and they are. 1 fade is all it takes you make you take the sentrie rout or camp your infantry portal and phase gate. even to this build.

    with more focus on what i'm actually doing/happening (with fade). i'll be attacking your base, you can have a 2nd base up with the phase gate operational, i'll sit in the blue beem attacking it, constantly watching my energy and always keeping it above 60%. trust me, without the sentries, i'll kill all your marines like max payne on easy mode.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (Bobo44 @ Feb 29 2012, 09:46 AM) »
    during 2nd hive construction the gorges can have a decent defense and hold strong with 1 whip.

    assuming the fade is availible and in the base of the marines, you ain't gonna kill a amateur-decent fade player. fades don't die unless they are usually new fades or greedy fades. i'll harass your base soo good as a fade you'll wish i wasn't in the server or you'll wish the fade is nerfed. i have extremely good energy management, i know target priority, and mines are easy to detonate without any damage incurred on me. i'm the fade player that makes marine say "fades are overpowered", and they are. 1 fade is all it takes you make you take the sentrie rout or camp your infantry portal and phase gate. even to this build.

    with more focus on what i'm actually doing/happening (with fade). i'll be attacking your base, you can have a 2nd base up with the phase gate operational, i'll sit in the blue beem attacking it, constantly watching my energy and always keeping it above 60%. trust me, without the sentries, i'll kill all your marines like max payne on easy mode.


    Fades have been nerfed so hard you only need a couple marines to take on a decent one, shotguns can wreck them. Also, one whip and a couple hydras can not stand up against a concentrated marine push. Of course, I am curious how you would have that fade attacking while your 2nd hive is going up. Fades are not overpowered, people say that because they try to fight them one on one, you are not skilled because you know how to kill a marine player, you are expected to. Marines need to be organized. If I am comm and I have a marine team who is moving on my orders and are decent shots, you would be on the run as fade and only a minor nuisance.
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