Lerk Bite Discussion

24

Comments

  • StakhanovStakhanov Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Posts: 2,094Members
    Personally , I prefer the 1.04 lerk with both attacks and none of the issues.

    This wouldn't be a problem with permutable / optional abilities (spores vs spikes)
  • Cheezy104Cheezy104 Join Date: 2009-06-11 Member: 67792Posts: 81Members
    edited August 2009
    I love the idea of the spikes. I've always seen the Lerk as a ranged fighter and it should stay that way!

    You'll make the spikes awesome, no doubt about it.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • DroopyDaDogDroopyDaDog Join Date: 2003-06-18 Member: 17479Posts: 67Members
    edited August 2009
    QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Aug 12 2009, 05:26 PM) »
    *On Another note would be super cool if the Lerk could somehow tilt it head/aim while flying. Although I'd be hard pressed to imagine how that control scheme could work with keyboard/mouse.


    Hmm, you could use the current NS1 flight model and have the +movement key as a "freelook glide/auto-flap" when held down (as opposed to normal gliding when you hold jump). So you can aim around and keep the heading you were on when you pressed +movement. If you wanted it extra cool you could reassign the movement keys to turn left/right and pitch up/down in freelook mode for some rudimentary flight control too.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Sumo-SoldierSumo-Soldier Join Date: 2009-07-24 Member: 68249Posts: 62Members
    im thinking of maybe having an alternate fire mode where the lerk can drop a spike ball...or maybe a poison gas ball that explodes on impact. this would make the swooshing as a lerk so much more fun as u bombard the poor marines with death balls!!!! of course u cant spam it, cause it should take a while for it to recharge and then have the ability again. maybe 2 to 3 min.
  • ZammaZamma Join Date: 2004-05-04 Member: 28458Posts: 256Members, Constellation
    I can't see spikes truely working that well tbh. Let's face it, there is virtually no way you can make the lerk playstyle fun with this. A lerk will have real issues aiming and dodging at the same time (atleast with the current flight model) and the only way I can see the lerk flying and spiking is when flying in a straight line (easy to hit.). Bite fitted the lerks playstyle perfectly. It allowed him to fly in and out of combat when it's needed i.e. to support skulks in combat, and it does good dps. A lerk sitting in a vent spiking is boring... and I can't see how spikes are going to work unless the team wants to make them work more like a shotgun, i.e. low rof but high damage shots.

    The best compromise imo, is having bite as a primary and then having a secondary attack for spikes. These spikes would be used how you suggest as a harrassing attack, but they would be weak and more useful in picking off a marines armour and health from safety. People would argue this is spores job, BUT, spore does damage in an area which marines can move out of. This spikes would work better on single marines while spores is more useful for a group of marines.
    GibbZ a.k.a Zamma`
    sprogga ~ GibbZ
    TeamUK 07
    Constellation Member
    Clan Leader of The Sproggalots - #sproggalots on Quakenet
    Head-Admin of European Natural Selection League - ENSL - #ensl on Quakenet

    ________________________

    Happy Fragging
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Posts: 1,618Members, Constellation
    QUOTE (DroopyDaDog @ Aug 13 2009, 08:25 AM) »
    Hmm, you could use the current NS1 flight model and have the +movement key as a "freelook glide/auto-flap" when held down (as opposed to normal gliding when you hold jump). So you can aim around and keep the heading you were on when you pressed +movement. If you wanted it extra cool you could reassign the movement keys to turn left/right and pitch up/down in freelook mode for some rudimentary flight control too.


    Interesting idea, but I think It would work better the other way around -- use the old version 2 flight model normally, and have the +movement key as a flight modifier that lets you accelerate in the direction you are looking, instead of the direction you are moving. I'm not entirely certain that would work though, because the two flight models don't treat momentum the same way.

    (technical explanation: the version 3 flight model puts your flight thrust on "jump" in the same direction you are looking, and keeps your momentum between jumps -- if you turn around and try to jump in the opposite direction, you'll stall out, so you sort of need to make a curved turn. The version 2 flight model puts your flight thrust on "jump" directly up, or at a 45° angle between up and your current WASD movement key, with no regard to where you are looking. Momentum is mostly ignored, so you can swap between two opposite flight directions almost instantly, as long as you don't want to go DOWN -- all thrust is aimed partially upwards.)
    Also Known As :: Kerostasis
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Posts: 1,725Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Offensive Lerk play (pancake+bite, but there was much more to it than just that) is one of the more skill intensive parts of NS1 gameplay. It works well, but that doesn't mean it's the only solution that will. As long as the Lerk with short range spikes allow for a proportionally long learning curve, although not necessarily utilizing the same skills, I don't see any problems with it.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Posts: 3,365Members
    QUOTE (chiss @ Aug 13 2009, 01:34 AM) »
    In retaliation to everyone who is saying that Lerks are a support unit, therefor it should have spikes.

    Bite Lerks are extremely useful in support situations. Gassing marines to weaken them until the skulks arrive. Then as soon as the marines attention is taken by the skulks, swoop down and chomp them. It's just more aggressive support.

    Spikes were boring and i think any decent marine will have far less trouble killing a Lerk on a 'strafing run' than a Lerk swooping around like crazy biting them. The logic behind this is simply that doing strafing runs will require the Lerk to fly directly towards the marine in a straight line. As a result, they become an easy target.

    However, i'm not ruling out spikes.... if you could only fire 1 spike every 2 seconds or so which did about 50 damage at a fairly short range, that would be acceptable, as Lerks would still be played quite like bite Lerks.


    agreed. I personally like how an aggressive Lerk is possible, not to mention the great times trying to shoot the bugger out of the air when he swoops in. Vent only Lerks sound boring.
    helping bring perspective and learning since the olde days

    QUOTE
    <jenny> What's the plural of 'Onos'?
    <Mexican> For a while, I thought it was 'Oh ######'!


    Vote on your Ideas/Suggestions!
    http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....howtopic=125347
  • Dead-InsideDead-Inside Join Date: 2004-09-22 Member: 31862Posts: 111Members
    I think the best option is to have gravityaffected spikes, and as someoen suggested in a thread (not sure which because I lost it) having a slowfire speed or, as the guy suggested, 2 loaded spikes which deal a lot of damage rather than the spamspikes in NS1 would probably work a lot better, especially if the best way to deal damage is going to be to fly in and attack the marines in more or less close combat.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,714Members
    edited August 2009
    QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 13 2009, 03:56 PM) »
    Offensive Lerk play (pancake+bite, but there was much more to it than just that) is one of the more skill intensive parts of NS1 gameplay. It works well, but that doesn't mean it's the only solution that will. As long as the Lerk with short range spikes allow for a proportionally long learning curve, although not necessarily utilizing the same skills, I don't see any problems with it.

    True.

    ---

    I think lerk was well designed in the way that even a lower skilled player could be very useful as a sporelerk, but then again the top players could increase their effectiviness by mastering the bitelerking and combining it with the sporing. I hope the future lerk works in the same way.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • StarClawsStarClaws Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 9974Posts: 122Members
    edited August 2009
    Remeber the topic: Lerk Bite Discussion... Not why you are happy with Lerk Spikes and how you fail at lerk bite.

    What we know the lerks TRUE ROLE IS: Early node defense. Armor reducer. Slight defense increaser. First responder to situations.
    Lerk would get there first and reduce armor.


    ***NS1

    *w/ Bite: Lerk Bite was a major asset to defending res.
    A good lerk could rake up enough res to go fade early if used right. Not thinking about the res. That is quite a bit of kills that aren't pressuring your resources.

    *w/ Spikes: Lerk Spikes forced you to sit back and poke at the marines.

    Only the marines that stood still for a long ass time and didnt shoot back died. Generally the marines that stood in gas with the comms that don't med and the marines that don't shoot back... Sound like your usual spike kills you fail lerks?

    I could kill marines faster as a gorge than the lerk could with spikes...

    ***NS2

    *w/ Spikes: Lerk had better be altered quite a bit...

    Power Grid/Etc... Might eliminate early med support and make this more effictive than anticipated though... Or the spore/umbra combo...

    A lerk that sits still is a dead lerk...

    A lerk that is moving ... Is a lerk that can't hurt the enemy marines (Unless flying straight at them or hovering in the air... Easy kill...) You are required to either fly at them... Sit there... Or slightly hop/hover in order to damage the enemy. Im not sure but most marines can kill this kind of lerk...

    Unless it auto aims marines as you fly by while holding the button down... This is a fast paced game... If you have to look away from your flight path to aim... You will likely misjudge a vent or door.

    If 2-3 marines are attacking a res node/capping a res node. That lerk wont be able to do anything anymore...

    *w/ Bite:
    We will have to wait for beta I guess...


    **************
    Please remind yourselves AGAIN that the lerk is: Early node defense. Armor reducer. Slight defense increaser. First responder to situations.

    **************
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    image
    "Plus Charlie doesn't know anything about technology..." -Max
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Posts: 1,618Members, Constellation
    QUOTE (StarClaws @ Aug 13 2009, 03:05 PM) »
    A lerk that is moving ... Is a lerk that can't hurt the enemy marines (Unless flying straight at them or hovering in the air... Easy kill...) You are required to either fly at them... Sit there... Or slightly hop/hover in order to damage the enemy. Im not sure but most marines can kill this kind of lerk...


    I don't know why everyone seems to have forgotten the old Lerk. When Lerk had spikes as a main weapon, he flew in a way that let you USE spikes as a main weapon and not die. Lerks were damned annoying to kill in v2.01, with one exception -- they would sometimes get snagged on objects sticking out of the ceiling and be unable to move, and then they would get shot. Add a minor fix to that and you wouldn't have a problem.

    The point is, Lerk flight has to match Lerk weaponry. They can't be developed independently. But you CAN make a flight system that matches spikes, as long as you're paying attention.
    Also Known As :: Kerostasis
  • JimydJimyd Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13289Posts: 622Members
    All you have to do is let the Lerk glide in one direction, while facing/shooting in another.

    Pretty simple.

    As long as that is easy to do, you will never need bite ever again.
    Your sig was nuked as it was larger than the maximum allowed size. In future make your sig images 400x75 pixels (or smaller) and 22kb (or smaller) - Mouse
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Posts: 1,618Members, Constellation
    You can already do that in the current system, but that's not actually good enough. You can't just continue to glide on your last path, or any half-competent marine will be able to lead you and shoot you. You have to be able to maneuver and dodge, both done at the same time as aiming in a completely different direction. And that requires a significantly different flight mechanism from the current one -- and conveniently, we have such a flight mechanism left over from 2.01.
    Also Known As :: Kerostasis
  • JimydJimyd Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13289Posts: 622Members
    edited August 2009
    QUOTE (Cxwf @ Aug 13 2009, 01:40 PM) »
    You can already do that in the current system, but that's not actually good enough. You can't just continue to glide on your last path, or any half-competent marine will be able to lead you and shoot you. You have to be able to maneuver and dodge, both done at the same time as aiming in a completely different direction. And that requires a significantly different flight mechanism from the current one -- and conveniently, we have such a flight mechanism left over from 2.01.


    I guess I am going to have to explain how this would work, it is really simple. Think like a Helicopter.

    When banking right, and turning left, you circle strafe in the air.

    BAM!!! Done.

    Holding Movement Keys (W/A/S/D) adds tilt to the Lerk. Tilt = Posture weight.

    You still control direction with the Mouse, you just influence the direction with the Movement Keys. Think like the new MX vs. ATV game, Reflex.

    Pressing jump adds height, pressing duck puts the Lerk wings into a dive stance. That way it can descend faster.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Your sig was nuked as it was larger than the maximum allowed size. In future make your sig images 400x75 pixels (or smaller) and 22kb (or smaller) - Mouse
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Posts: 931Members
    QUOTE (StarClaws @ Aug 13 2009, 02:05 PM) »
    Remeber the topic: Lerk Bite Discussion... Not why you are happy with Lerk Spikes and how you fail at lerk bite.

    What we know the lerks TRUE ROLE IS: Early node defense. Armor reducer. Slight defense increaser. First responder to situations.
    Lerk would get there first and reduce armor.

    Is that what it is, or what it was?


    QUOTE
    *w/ Spikes: Lerk had better be altered quite a bit...

    Power Grid/Etc... Might eliminate early med support and make this more effictive than anticipated though... Or the spore/umbra combo...

    A lerk that sits still is a dead lerk...

    A lerk that is moving ... Is a lerk that can't hurt the enemy marines (Unless flying straight at them or hovering in the air... Easy kill...) You are required to either fly at them... Sit there... Or slightly hop/hover in order to damage the enemy. Im not sure but most marines can kill this kind of lerk...

    Unless it auto aims marines as you fly by while holding the button down... This is a fast paced game... If you have to look away from your flight path to aim... You will likely misjudge a vent or door.


    Perfect. Wasn't everybody complaining about a lack of skill based movement? This sounds exactly right.

    QUOTE
    If 2-3 marines are attacking a res node/capping a res node. That lerk wont be able to do anything anymore...

    **************
    Please remind yourselves AGAIN that the lerk is: Early node defense. Armor reducer. Slight defense increaser. First responder to situations.

    **************

    Again, is?
    Or was?
    Why doesn't my Lerk perch?
  • CCCorpCCCorp Join Date: 2003-03-14 Member: 14503Posts: 67Members, Constellation
    id personally like to see the lerk still have a close combat weapon the spikes are a great idea but i like to get personal with my enemy.
    Maybe another option is use the spike as close combat and just stab the marine even biting them at the same time just to make it look like your actually doing damage to them to match what damage your actually doing
    dn`CC Corp // Twitch TV
    dn`
  • yourbonesakinyourbonesakin Join Date: 2005-08-06 Member: 57682Posts: 573Members
    QUOTE (DroopyDaDog @ Aug 13 2009, 09:25 AM) »
    Hmm, you could use the current NS1 flight model and have the +movement key as a "freelook glide/auto-flap" when held down (as opposed to normal gliding when you hold jump). So you can aim around and keep the heading you were on when you pressed +movement. If you wanted it extra cool you could reassign the movement keys to turn left/right and pitch up/down in freelook mode for some rudimentary flight control too.


    That sounds like a really good idea. +movement for "stall engines". I like it.
    Charlie on a new visual effect:
    QUOTE (Charlie Flayra @ Feb 10th 2011, 10:43PM)
    Oh my gosh. That's like predator mode but... on acid. That is SO cool looking. We have to figure out a way to put that in there!

    ... That is just badass.


    QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM) »
    Charlie: "To the BUS BABBLER!"
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Posts: 581Members
    The old spikes and lerk hover were horrible. I love how the current lerk provides support from a distance but also gets dangerously close when opportunity presents itself. I hope this does not change with the reintroduction of spikes. Nevertheless, some kind of short range spike might be an great compromise.
    CAL-ns|Austin
    CALeague - Natural Selection Division Admin

    image Co :: xHomicide
    Creator of ns_bhop (best ns map ever made), ns_duel, initial cal-ns plugin, nslearn.org website,
    and Capture Point (a 2 week source mod that a couple dozen people downloaded)

    http://austinlawrence.no-ip.org/ons/
  • BriligBrilig Join Date: 2009-01-01 Member: 65938Posts: 27Members
    For more of a bombing run (or crop dusting) feel mabey go with an acid spray. You fly through a group of marines and spew some acid or squirt it out of a gland or something.
    Or you could have an attack where you release a gass like you did before but you dont get to shoot it, its area of effect around yourself. Mabey it blocks a little more of the marines vision and you can do a smoke ninja attack.
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Posts: 931Members
    QUOTE (Brilig @ Aug 14 2009, 07:21 AM) »
    or squirt it out of a gland or something.

    Oo.. jarate.. that'd piss off the marines like nothing else..

    bad pun intended.
    Why doesn't my Lerk perch?
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Posts: 2,817Members, Constellation
    The lerk was created as a support role and every ability the lerk has makes this clear.

    Removing spikes and adding bite in NS1 changed this role and I always preferred spikes over bite. Glad to see it's spikes in NS2.
    sentrysteve.txt
  • culpritculprit Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Posts: 310Members, Constellation
    Yep, this all depends on the role the lerk is to fill in NS2. If the lerk is more of a support class then spikes will fit right in to that really well. But with multiple khaomms (kharaoms - kharaa comms, has this been named yet?) using spells and such, does the lerk need to be a complete support class?

    I'm guessing the lerk will be a blended support/attack role. The fast biting lerk was always very effective at taking down structures. The old spikes were a slow DoT type damage rate. This made it very long to have much effect. Perhaps the new spikes could be a short burst attack. With a well executed swoop attack, a salvo could be launched. This would make the lerk require a hit and run tactic. This could use the energy drain to also afford a slow bolt-action type attack. The trick is limiting the range in a coherent manner. A spear non-hitscan type of attack could fit this well. Adding a flak range to the projectile would would certainly work. Something like flak-rockets is what this is.
  • rebirthrebirth Join Date: 2007-09-23 Member: 62416Posts: 372Members
    edited August 2009
    What many people here seem to overlook:

    With spikes that change damage depending on range you could have the same playstyle as a bite lerk. Just set the DPS of the spikes to as high as biting when in meele range.
    That way you could still do all these things: ranged support, strafe runs, "in your face" attacking.

    In the end it doesn't matter with what you attack when you are close to the marine as long as the DPS is right. So bite isn't really required to keep the current lerk gameplay. But bite removes options from the gameplay choise because it's nature is meele.

    On the other side spikes are ranged but that wouldn't stop them from beeing used as a weapon in meele range if the DPS on them scales according to range.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • DelphicDelphic Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58262Posts: 431Members
    ^^ that implimentation was kinda what I was hoping they'd go with.
  • M1kk3l109M1kk3l109 Join Date: 2007-09-22 Member: 62402Posts: 4Members
    how would you bite if you were flying?
    you wouldn't, because that would break the momentum and you would smash into the marines, or begin to make somersaults...
    either way, it would get damn hard to fly.
    And even if you stopped biting fast enough, your wings would hit the marine, and you would crash anyway.
    with spikes, you could do the same, you just wouldn't get to close, thus not crash. And you don't have to keep moving in the same direction for ages, so i don't see how it could make you so vulnerable, and by the way that isn't you role, because your a lerk, and they are a supporting unit, so you wouldn't have to go into close combat anyway.
    And the spikes are just a back up weapon, for you to use if the enemy is getting to close to your base, or if you are good at nailing marines to walls.
  • iPandaiPanda Join Date: 2009-08-10 Member: 68417Posts: 48Members
    How about this guys.

    You could have spikes primary fire similar to the original weapon but have it effected by gravity to slow or limit there range
    I think the idea of them increasing velocity and in turn damage. Also to encourage people to fly and shoot the flying spikes could have a bit of aim assistance but obviously not to much. This would stop the need to fly in straight lines.
    My other suggestion is to give the Alt fire a burst shotgun like function with it having a 3 second max charge time. Every second into the charge adds 5 spikes to the burst to a maximum of 15 but limit the range considerably.

    I believe this system would work quiet well if you could charge the attack whilst still firing the primary. So combat would work like this,
    Target spotted-Spore-fly in strafing shooting target whilst chargingAlt- at close range relese alt fire fly away.
    I don’t know what the key to success is, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.
  • ValcienValcien Join Date: 2007-07-22 Member: 61650Posts: 33Members
    It sounds silly, but I'm mostly concerned with how the spikes will look if implemented. I hated how huge spikes were in NS. It's ridiculous to think that a life form could manufacture new spikes so quickly. I had the same problem with Acid Rocket and OCs. I mean, gameplay must come first. But it really broke suspension of disbelief for me. Hopefully the spikes will be tiny.

    I am rooting for slow high damage spikes over fast low damage spikes.
  • juicejuice Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12886Posts: 1,044Members, Constellation
    I loved the grinder sound of repeated lerk bites.

    put him in... THE GRRRINDER!!!
  • sheena_yanaisheena_yanai Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11426Posts: 4,469Members
    i sense the return of "it hovars without flapping" and "lorks on the clorf" ....spike lerks..sweet.. those winged skulks got quite boring already ^^ need shirtguns, naow!
Sign In or Register to comment.