<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Feb 18 2005, 12:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Feb 18 2005, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Feb 18 2005, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Feb 18 2005, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, the old exploit of interp was setting it low, to .01 for example, so that their hitbox would be behind the model. I think it was a bug, you could set it low and aim slightly behind the model and still hit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This was a particularly big deal in TFC when used by players of the HWGuy class, who carries a chaingun, and plies his craft by attempting to keep his crosshairs on his target, filling him with lead, as the target jinks, jumps, flees, and generally tries to get away or stay alive long enough to make the HWguy eat enough rockets, pellets, and grenades to die.
By using a low ex_interp (IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER COMMANDS as the obtuse league admins and cheater hunters always added), a Hwguy could aim slightly behind his target, thus negating most of the benefits of teh moving around trying to stay out of the crosshairs. Thus speeding up the gittin kilt process. Significantly.
I have been playing HL and its mods sinse around 1998/99 and have fiddled with rates and settings extensively.What interp is meant to do on paper and what it actually does in game terms can be very different i can remember in CS interp 0.01 was considered a cheat because it meant you could spray and wave your gun about and you would get mysterious headshots same goes for the TFC hwguy,set your interp real low and you get hits that you simply wouldnt get if it was a default values (yes i admit it ive done this <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> im ashamed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) I always thought interp was locked in NS but now i find its not it explains a few things "super" marines that never miss....boring i stopped playing NS because of these mystery skillz players and now its seems its been down to interp make no mistake about it,interp may not be a outright "cheat" but it is definately an unfair advantage used by people who are boarderline cheats and certainly not sporting players those peopel who consider themselfs "leet" and when you question their unusual skills will replay with "lol" and possibly "noob" they are generally the type to use interp
NS was better of with it locked as it is extreamly exploitative when you know how
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By using a low ex_interp (IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER COMMANDS as the obtuse league admins and cheater hunters always added)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you type cl_extrap into the source engine you will notice its listed as a client cheat,perhaps this is one of those other commands? there are a few similar suspect commands.We can only hope that valve will make the new vac pick this sort of thing up
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->those peopel who consider themselfs "leet" and when you question their unusual skills will replay with "lol" and possibly "noob" they are generally the type to use interp<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah and people who categorize others by what they type to other people in an online game are commonly considered pretty stupid.
Every time that someone brings up ex_interp or other netcode settings that give a player 'an advantage,' the settings that are unfair are never specifically stated. So I propose a challenge: post some specific 'h4x' settings and let's see if I do better with them.
I am on a broadband cable modem, and I can usually get a ping of around ~30 if the server I'm playing on is in my little corner of America. My download rate is very high, although I don't know it right off the top of my head. IIRC, my upload rate is 384 kbps (~45 KBps). As of now I play with default interp, update and cmdrate settings and a rate of 25000. What settings do you think would grant an 'unfair' advantage?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yeah and people who categorize others by what they type to other people in an online game are commonly considered pretty stupid<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only way you can categorize somebody in an online game is by what they type to others after all what other basis to catagorize them do you have?
what i meant was its an attitude common to peopel that will generally exploit all they can to win and them will heap worship upon themselfs and how good they are its not exclusive to NS
Dragon a good way to test it would be to go play TFC as hwguy set your rate to 25k and cmd and updaterate to 101 spray a bit learn the way the hwguy handles,then set your interp to 0.01 and see how it affects things after that do the same thing in CS and i challenge you to come back and say its not exploitative i have never changed interp in NS because i beleived it to be locked but as far as all other HL mods go-DOD and TS included its exploitative and boarderline cheating in certain circumstances it does have a correct use to compensate for lag but i have always suspected that it was slightly broken
Every time that someone brings up ex_interp or other netcode settings that give a player 'an advantage,' the settings that are unfair are never specifically stated. So I propose a challenge: post some specific 'h4x' settings and let's see if I do better with them.
I am on a broadband cable modem, and I can usually get a ping of around ~30 if the server I'm playing on is in my little corner of America. My download rate is very high, although I don't know it right off the top of my head. IIRC, my upload rate is 384 kbps (~45 KBps). As of now I play with default interp, update and cmdrate settings and a rate of 25000. What settings do you think would grant an 'unfair' advantage? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> if i have an admins permission, i will post what i found on a ns forum, concerning lag exploits. And you will use them like you say.
The old ex_interp glitch was fixed what - 2 and a half years ago? Guess news takes time to get around on a medium such as the internet <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-AlienBreed+Feb 18 2005, 04:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AlienBreed @ Feb 18 2005, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dragon a good way to test it would be to go play TFC as hwguy set your rate to 25k and cmd and updaterate to 101 spray a bit learn the way the hwguy handles,then set your interp to 0.01 and see how it affects things after that do the same thing in CS and i challenge you to come back and say its not exploitative i have never changed interp in NS because i beleived it to be locked but as far as all other HL mods go-DOD and TS included its exploitative and boarderline cheating in certain circumstances it does have a correct use to compensate for lag but i have always suspected that it was slightly broken <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Would it be too wild a leap in imagination that 10 network frames a second at default interp (0.1) is the broken bit, not 0.01 interp (100 network frames a second provided the server is sending you enough updates)?
i dunno saltzbad i know what interp is supposed to do,but i also know how it behaves in the game anybody whos ever used low interp values knows just how dubious the whole thing is,its just are they big enough to own up and admit its exploitative nature <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The old ex_interp glitch was fixed what - 2 and a half years ago? Guess news takes time to get around on a medium such as the internet<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
News to me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> i know it will still give you "lucky" headshots in cs tho interp is a friend to those that spray n pray <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Get FRAPS or any other recording programm, make videos of first person (not spec) demos with it, and describe what you see in them. Until then I'm going to stick with my own experience of low interp values - that models simply become jumpy, and since you lack some interpolation between updates you have received, yet the server backlog still knows your target has been there at some point, you can fire at thin air on you screen and hit.
Thats nothing shocking though. As for getting more lucky headshots in CS - depends what you consider lucky. I find HSing moving targets easier with a low interp, simply because the interpolation error can sometimes let you miss shots that were actually on otherwise (assuming your target has large relative movement to you, not absolute movement - since him running at you makes no difference). Other than that half of CS is lucky headshots, so I don't know how you'd notice you're getting "too many" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that models simply become jumpy, and since you lack some interpolation between updates you have received, yet the server backlog still knows your target has been there at some point, you can fire at thin air on you screen and hit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think you just summed it up there
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yet the server backlog still knows your target has been there <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At some point ,and thats the issue isnt it? the poor player you fired at is miles away from his point of view and yet the magic of interp allows you to keep on hitting
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you can fire at thin air on you screen and hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and thats not exploitative?
what ever interp does on paper in the game environment it will turn a reasonable player with fair aim into a killing machine if that player is willing to live with the graphical side effects
1. No its not exploitive, the amount of locations you can shoot at to register a hit does not increase or decrease. Nor does the time you can do so. But the accuracy of the information about these locations decreases.
2. No it does not make a fair player into a killing machine - the 'graphical side effects' include removing target predictability, the main aid to mediocre aiming after all, as well as more serious effects such as lacking information about extremely vital parts of the enemy players movement - so instead of seeing a Skulk BHopping around a corner, you will only receive an update with him behind the corner, and one with him in your face - so short of guessing you'd be unable to defend yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin-AlienBreed+Feb 18 2005, 04:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AlienBreed @ Feb 18 2005, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have been playing HL and its mods sinse around 1998/99 and have fiddled with rates and settings extensively.What interp is meant to do on paper and what it actually does in game terms can be very different i can remember in CS interp 0.01 was considered a cheat because it meant you could spray and wave your gun about and you would get mysterious headshots same goes for the TFC hwguy,set your interp real low and you get hits that you simply wouldnt get if it was a default values (yes i admit it ive done this <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> im ashamed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) I always thought interp was locked in NS but now i find its not it explains a few things "super" marines that never miss....boring i stopped playing NS because of these mystery skillz players and now its seems its been down to interp make no mistake about it,interp may not be a outright "cheat" but it is definately an unfair advantage used by people who are boarderline cheats and certainly not sporting players those peopel who consider themselfs "leet" and when you question their unusual skills will replay with "lol" and possibly "noob" they are generally the type to use interp
NS was better of with it locked as it is extreamly exploitative when you know how
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By using a low ex_interp (IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER COMMANDS as the obtuse league admins and cheater hunters always added)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you type cl_extrap into the source engine you will notice its listed as a client cheat,perhaps this is one of those other commands? there are a few similar suspect commands.We can only hope that valve will make the new vac pick this sort of thing up <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> no. Interp is a legit command now, it was fixed ~6 months ago IIRC, and that's why it became unlocked.
Edit: GUYS STOP TALKING OUT OF YOUR **** PLEASE. Interp isn't exploitative anymore. cl_extrap isn't even a command (ex_extrapmax is). Jesus christ so much bs gets spewed on these forums. If you don't have a clue what you're talking about, don't talk.
I'm not saying there is no way to get an advantadge with netcode settings (teleporting advantadge, not an advantadge at hitting people), but AFAIK interp has nothing to do with it.
for real this thread and threads like it are giving me headaches. how do these ppl think they are informed. it's like we got invaded by gamefaqs or something. spew
The actual interp fix is a good bit older than that if I remember right at all Nada - you're thinking of the unlocking fix. Anyway, my sentiment precisely <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This was a major issue that was delt with a long time ago in the past by alot of people who knew what they were talking about. I know for a fact this isn't the first time this interp issue has come up in the forums, I've been around for at least 2 rivivals of the topic. Rest assured it as at a point where it is the least exploitable and the least buggy as it stands right now. I really don't understand the issue all to well, and I doubt that most of you really do, but this is the community responsible for tracking down the last slot hitbox bug, remember? Rest assured the issue has been adressed by very very competent people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Edit: GUYS STOP TALKING OUT OF YOUR **** PLEASE. Interp isn't exploitative anymore. cl_extrap isn't even a command (ex_extrapmax is). Jesus christ so much bs gets spewed on these forums. If you don't have a clue what you're talking about, don't talk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
damn i love peopel who like to talk about others spewing bs
i know very well what the correct extrap command was i just didnt want to give anybody ideas ill own up ive been exploiting interp in games like tfc and cs for ages particularly in cs every time i came across a player i felt was a bit dodgy or perhaps just plain obnoxious i would lower my interp and spray headshots at them till they left <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> it works....i know it works it has worked for years and it still works now i dont feel at all bad about it tho cause trying to play honestly in HL mods generally means you get called a noob be interesting to see if dragon actually tests it and reports back because its so blatently obvious when your getting kills that you know you shouldnt and know you wouldnt if you did not exploit interp i migth add to this that being shot at by a player who is exploiting interp is different from being shot at by an honest player i cant explain exactly what i mean but the bullets land differently and slightly oddly,if you played enough you would probably get what i mean what you have to remember about half life mods is that the tfc community (particularly one of the large ones im thinking of) pulled the engine apart years ago every exploit,every bug,every silly little lameness to gain an advantage....its all been found out so when a game like ns comes out there is a whole player base that already knows how to exploit
btw your right in HL its ex_ cl_extrapmax it the source engine command and if you were to type in cl_extr the console would finish the command for you i beleive i did say source engine in my post....
<!--QuoteBegin-AlienBreed+Feb 19 2005, 12:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AlienBreed @ Feb 19 2005, 12:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what you have to remember about half life mods is that the tfc community (particularly one of the large ones im thinking of) pulled the engine apart years ago every exploit,every bug,every silly little lameness to gain an advantage....its all been found out so when a game like ns comes out there is a whole player base that already knows how to exploit <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I played TFC competetively for 5 years...
and the difference between TFC and CS despite all the flak that CS players get is that the better class of CS clan server clamped down on most of this sort of thing where as in TFC you can get away with just about anything (including changing skins...another thing that is common in NS that shouldnt be) even a few of the more serious DOD clan servers will limit you to 0.05.. TFC players are in the minority here as the majority of the other mods either frown on or ban low interp settings completely and i feel it will be/has been a mistake to allow NS to go down the path of TFC
forgive me for asking but what value of interp do you use in NS? and do you feel that if interp was locked and fair and equal for all players you would be less effective?
I was going to write a long post trying to provide mathematical examples explaining clearly what ex_interp does in an attempt to stop these badly informed rumours. However after writing several paragraphs I realised that not only does that take a lot of effort but I would most likely be wasting my time regardless.
A quote I once heard, went something like: "To those that believe, no proof is needed. To those that don't, no proof is enough." It was originally referring to religion, however I believe it fits in these kind of circumstances too.
Regardless of that quote I'll cut out my mathematical examples and leave you with this...
People seem to be concerned that ex_interp gives an advantage, it DOES. So do the other network commands. You may not realise but there are many different types of computers and connections around, which is exactly why a good engine provides variables so that people can change them to match their system.
First of all you have to understand that the server has a lot of data to transfer and process, it is very difficult if not impossible for every client to see exactly what the server sees at the exact same time.
As was already said previously in this post, interpolation means "to estimate values of (a function) between two known values". The key point is that interpolation is an ESTIMATE, this means that there is a chance for errors to occur.
By lowering the time between these estimates, the result is a more accurate representation of what the server sees. THAT is the advantage.
When used correctly ex_interp will provide a more accurate "picture" of what the server sees, compared to guessing many frames between updates from the server when using default commands.
Surely you can understand that if your client is showing a more accurate representation of what the server can see, that is an advantage. In my opinion, an entirely fair advantage.
In reference to your story of being able to get more headshots when lowering your ex_interp value, that is most likely because your client was drawing the enemy positions more accurately than before, so your shots were more likely to be on target from the servers point of view.
For the record, ex_interp is dependant on several other things. If I remember correctly these are: FPS for both client and server, cl_updaterate and sv_maxupdate.
Assuming a perfect environment, your ex_interp value should be set to 1/cl_updaterate, ex_interp 0 sets this value automatically. So for example, cl_updaterate 100 and ex_interp 0 would results in ex_interp being automatically set to 0.01.
Of course linux servers are limited to 50FPS by default and I believe Windows servers are limited at 60FPS, these can be uncapped somehow though. sv_maxupdate also plays a big part because the default server config sets that to 30. Meaning even if you have cl_updaterate at 100, you will only recieve 30. As a result of this, using ex_interp 0 will also result in a wrong value and often causes the choppiness that people have commented on.
If a server has 100 FPS and sv_maxupdate 100 and the client has 100 FPS when using cl_updaterate 100 and ex_interp 0, it should provide the most accurate information.
On a finishing note, I once read a brilliant article about network settings which was specifically written for an old version of CS. It explained what almost every setting did, it provided mathematical examples and best of all it provided video clips showing how these settings could affect the client (even using an aimbot so that human error was not to blame). I've attempted to track down this article to link in this post as it would explain everything in far more detail than I ever could. If anyone knows where to find that article, please link it in this thread, it would be useful.
Feel free to correct any mistakes I made and I update my post.
Right guys, now listen up, and listen good. Before you come over here and post your useless information and experience that you have gained by years of gaming, why dont you acually shut up, load up a server, and experiment.
And that is exactly what I have done. Lots of times.
If you dont know a lot about the HL netcode, dont even bother reading this post any further. I will give a brief explanation of some of the commands, and how i understand them to work. And if you dont agree with me, go and join a server with a few friends, and test this out for yourself. I will even on request, upload some demos to an ftp so that you can see what I am talking about.
First off lets start with the most common rate commands, rate, cl_cmdrate, and cl_updaterate.
Rate is the amount of incoming data per packet that you receive from the server. The higher your rate value is set at, the less choke you will get (taking into account that you have a decent connection).
cl_updaterate is the ammount of packets that you receive every second from the server. A decent value for this command would be anything above 30.
now comes the most important one in this discussion, and there has been mass confusion about this command for years in this community (and other HL mods / games as well). cl_cmdrate is <b>THE AMOUNT OF FRAMES PER SECOND THAT YOU SEND TO THE SERVER EVERY SECOND</b>. Why is this so important?
Because if a player assigns a low value to cl_cmdrate, he will be sending a low ammount of frames per second (FPS) to the server, meaning that he will basically be teleporting around.
But how will you notice that someone is using a low value for cl_cmdrate? There is only one way - by using a correct value for interp on your client.
Im sure by now everyone knows that ex_interp sets the timing for prediction inbetween frames received from the server that you are playing on. If you are using the correct interp value for your client, you will see 100% accurate hitboxes. This meaning that if a player is sending low FPS to the server (which is directly determined by cl_cmdrate), you will see him teleporting around on your screen because he is sending a low ammount of FPS to the server. Let me use an example:
NSPlayer uses the following rates: rate 10000, cl_cmdrate 10, cl_updaterate 30. Lets forget about rate for now, it is not that important. what is important though is the last two commands. his cl_updaterate is set to 30, meaning he will receive 30 FPS from the server. His cl_cmdrate is set to 10, which means that he is sending only 10 FPS to the server. This means that the server is receiving updates from the client every 0.1 seconds. This means that if at any time he strafes left or right while running at you, and there hasnt been an update received (server from the client),you will still see him running towards you, but you will not see where his correct hitbox position is, <b> MEANING YOUR BULLETS WILL MISS </b>. This is taking into account that you are using incorrect interp values.
So how do you see what value a player is using for his cl_cmdrate? Simply by using correct ex_interp values for the rates that you are currently using. Your ex_interp value should be your 1/cl_updaterate (1 divided by your cl_updaterate value). And if your not into maths, and you dont know where to turn on your calculator, you can easily set it to the correct value by opening your console, and typing: "ex_interp 0". By setting it to 0 , your client will automatically start using the correct value for ex_interp.
Now most of you have not even bothered looking into this, meaning that you will most probably still be using the default value for ex_interp, which is 0.1 . If this is the case, then i suggest you set your cl_updaterate to 50 (or higher) and afterwards you set your ex_interp to 0 (because your interp value is based on your updaterate value). Then connect to a server - i gaurantee you that you will be seeing whats really going on. Yes, some players will teleport, (because of low cl_cmdrate values) but at least you are seeing their correct hitbox positions, and not some illusion.
This my friends, is how ex_interp works. Its not some kind of hack, cheat, exploit etc... You cant change your interp to a value that gives you an advantage, because its not possible, except if you are of opinion that seeing correct hitbox positions is an advantage (in which case i reccomend you use the correct ex_interp value for your rates).
PS: People telling others to change their cl_updaterate because they are "teleporting" should hopefully now see that cl_updaterate has nothing to do with teleporting. cl_cmdrate is the culprit. I seriously suggest that the dev team sets a minimum allowed cl_cmdrate value of no less than 30 in the next version of ns, and that they also lock cl_rate to 9999.
Please pm me on irc if you want anymore information on this.
One thing though, your ex_interp should be the inverted value of your cl_updaterate
ex_interp = 1/cl_updaterate
So for an updaterate of 30 (which most often is the max value possible on public servers due to sv_maxupdaterate), your ex_interp should be 1/30 = 0.0333[...].
- I'm many years out of date with knowledge of the HL netcode so forgive ignorance
Swirl, if what you have said is true, then why does every mod, or even the HL engine, fix your updaterate and cmdrate to equal values?
From what you've explained, any player wanting an edge will set themselves a low cmdrate and ahigh updaterate - why then, has no one thought to remove the user input on cmdrate, and hardcode it to equal what ever the user sets for his/her updaterate. That way if you want to get lots of information on other people's positions, the downside is you give them more information on yours. Similarly if you want to lower yours, you have to reduce the amount you get... Suddenly every one has to reach a compromise and will the positives/negatives cancel out resulting in fair play (ignoring ALL other factors effecting this)...
-- As said at the beginning of this post, I have admitted to my relative ignorance of knowledge of the HL netcode currently (3-4 years ago I knew all this stuff!)
So, looking at this discussion from the perspective of some one not in the know, here is something to consider when making your posts putting forward what you believe to be the truth of the matter: sources.
a lot of people have thrown in a lot of ideas and beliefs into this discussion. a lot of them are absolute pants. a few of them are likely very accurate and should be well considered. The problem I'm having with this, is no one is yet to show me their source of information. Some one show me a video, or a server stat-printout, or some word on this from the people who made the engine (ie Valve).. it's all very well saying "my interpretation of how this works is.." but what if you're interpretation is wrong? Then you're entire argument is based on a false observation resulting in it being about as useful as a catflap in an elephant house.
If you want people to accept your input into a discussion of this nature (where, as previously pointed out, a lot of people are talking bs), then give us reason to believe you - show us facts, not your opinions...
<!--QuoteBegin-shanks+Feb 19 2005, 02:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (shanks @ Feb 19 2005, 02:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want people to accept your input into a discussion of this nature (where, as previously pointed out, a lot of people are talking bs), then give us reason to believe you - show us facts, not your opinions... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fine, I will go and record some demos and post them here. Then you can see for yourself.
my sources are playing the game and fiddling with settings <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> i still maintain that what interp does on paper does not accurately cover the effect it actually has in-game if you really want to know what it does go mess about with it yourself and it will become obvious how some players do the things they do if you think its an exploit or not i guess is down to personal opinion
this is a small extract from flyingcows foom tfc link
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Using a lower than default ex_interp value will cause the player model to push slightly ahead of the server confirmed hitbox on your client comp. That may seem undesirable because shotgunning the client drawn model may in fact miss the hitbox, but in competition it is actually a nifty (sarcasm) advantage, especially for area damage weapons. Many times you will miss a fast moving, dodging enemy - usually you are too slow and your shot lands where he just was. Since the settings cause the hitbox to trail your opponents player model, your miss is a hit! Viola, instant skill.
Also consider an offense player coming around a corner to a defending soldier. The soldier will see the enemy player model come around the corner before his real (hitbox) position. This will give the soldier a timing advantage for shooting. Additionally, with certain settings, the timing window for registering full damage hits is lengthened, causing the server to confirm more hits and making the hitbox feel enlarged on the client side. (If you are one of today's typical TFC players, you will brag about your skill even if it comes from haks like this).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
of particular interest the time where full dmg hits are registered - this is how you get "lucky" headshots in CS and also i suspect why some players in NS appear to have not only supurb aim but bullets that hurt more than other players
i will post the link again because its an interesting read <a href='http://www.foom.net/fortressfiles/netcode.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.foom.net/fortressfiles/netcode.htm</a>
Comments
No, the old exploit of interp was setting it low, to .01 for example, so that their hitbox would be behind the model. I think it was a bug, you could set it low and aim slightly behind the model and still hit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was a particularly big deal in TFC when used by players of the HWGuy class, who carries a chaingun, and plies his craft by attempting to keep his crosshairs on his target, filling him with lead, as the target jinks, jumps, flees, and generally tries to get away or stay alive long enough to make the HWguy eat enough rockets, pellets, and grenades to die.
By using a low ex_interp (IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER COMMANDS as the obtuse league admins and cheater hunters always added), a Hwguy could aim slightly behind his target, thus negating most of the benefits of teh moving around trying to stay out of the crosshairs. Thus speeding up the gittin kilt process. Significantly.
Answer warranteed correct unless Nadagast corrects me.
i can remember in CS interp 0.01 was considered a cheat because it meant you could spray and wave your gun about and you would get mysterious headshots
same goes for the TFC hwguy,set your interp real low and you get hits that you simply wouldnt get if it was a default values (yes i admit it ive done this <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> im ashamed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I always thought interp was locked in NS but now i find its not it explains a few things
"super" marines that never miss....boring
i stopped playing NS because of these mystery skillz players and now its seems its been down to interp
make no mistake about it,interp may not be a outright "cheat" but it is definately an unfair advantage used by people who are boarderline cheats and certainly not sporting players
those peopel who consider themselfs "leet" and when you question their unusual skills will replay with "lol" and possibly "noob" they are generally the type to use interp
NS was better of with it locked as it is extreamly exploitative when you know how
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By using a low ex_interp (IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER COMMANDS as the obtuse league admins and cheater hunters always added)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you type cl_extrap into the source engine you will notice its listed as a client cheat,perhaps this is one of those other commands? there are a few similar suspect commands.We can only hope that valve will make the new vac pick this sort of thing up
yeah and people who categorize others by what they type to other people in an online game are commonly considered pretty stupid.
Every time that someone brings up ex_interp or other netcode settings that give a player 'an advantage,' the settings that are unfair are never specifically stated. So I propose a challenge: post some specific 'h4x' settings and let's see if I do better with them.
I am on a broadband cable modem, and I can usually get a ping of around ~30 if the server I'm playing on is in my little corner of America. My download rate is very high, although I don't know it right off the top of my head. IIRC, my upload rate is 384 kbps (~45 KBps). As of now I play with default interp, update and cmdrate settings and a rate of 25000. What settings do you think would grant an 'unfair' advantage?
the only way you can categorize somebody in an online game is by what they type to others
after all what other basis to catagorize them do you have?
what i meant was its an attitude common to peopel that will generally exploit all they can to win and them will heap worship upon themselfs and how good they are
its not exclusive to NS
just speaking from experience
set your rate to 25k and cmd and updaterate to 101
spray a bit learn the way the hwguy handles,then set your interp to 0.01 and see how it affects things
after that do the same thing in CS and i challenge you to come back and say its not exploitative
i have never changed interp in NS because i beleived it to be locked but as far as all other HL mods go-DOD and TS included its exploitative and boarderline cheating in certain circumstances
it does have a correct use to compensate for lag but i have always suspected that it was slightly broken
Every time that someone brings up ex_interp or other netcode settings that give a player 'an advantage,' the settings that are unfair are never specifically stated. So I propose a challenge: post some specific 'h4x' settings and let's see if I do better with them.
I am on a broadband cable modem, and I can usually get a ping of around ~30 if the server I'm playing on is in my little corner of America. My download rate is very high, although I don't know it right off the top of my head. IIRC, my upload rate is 384 kbps (~45 KBps). As of now I play with default interp, update and cmdrate settings and a rate of 25000. What settings do you think would grant an 'unfair' advantage? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
if i have an admins permission, i will post what i found on a ns forum, concerning lag exploits. And you will use them like you say.
set your rate to 25k and cmd and updaterate to 101
spray a bit learn the way the hwguy handles,then set your interp to 0.01 and see how it affects things
after that do the same thing in CS and i challenge you to come back and say its not exploitative
i have never changed interp in NS because i beleived it to be locked but as far as all other HL mods go-DOD and TS included its exploitative and boarderline cheating in certain circumstances
it does have a correct use to compensate for lag but i have always suspected that it was slightly broken <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would it be too wild a leap in imagination that 10 network frames a second at default interp (0.1) is the broken bit, not 0.01 interp (100 network frames a second provided the server is sending you enough updates)?
i know what interp is supposed to do,but i also know how it behaves in the game
anybody whos ever used low interp values knows just how dubious the whole thing is,its just are they big enough to own up and admit its exploitative nature
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The old ex_interp glitch was fixed what - 2 and a half years ago? Guess news takes time to get around on a medium such as the internet<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
News to me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> i know it will still give you "lucky" headshots in cs tho
interp is a friend to those that spray n pray <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thats nothing shocking though. As for getting more lucky headshots in CS - depends what you consider lucky. I find HSing moving targets easier with a low interp, simply because the interpolation error can sometimes let you miss shots that were actually on otherwise (assuming your target has large relative movement to you, not absolute movement - since him running at you makes no difference). Other than that half of CS is lucky headshots, so I don't know how you'd notice you're getting "too many" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think you just summed it up there
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yet the server backlog still knows your target has been there <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At some point ,and thats the issue isnt it? the poor player you fired at is miles away from his point of view and yet the magic of interp allows you to keep on hitting
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you can fire at thin air on you screen and hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and thats not exploitative?
what ever interp does on paper in the game environment it will turn a reasonable player with fair aim into a killing machine if that player is willing to live with the graphical side effects
2. No it does not make a fair player into a killing machine - the 'graphical side effects' include removing target predictability, the main aid to mediocre aiming after all, as well as more serious effects such as lacking information about extremely vital parts of the enemy players movement - so instead of seeing a Skulk BHopping around a corner, you will only receive an update with him behind the corner, and one with him in your face - so short of guessing you'd be unable to defend yourself.
i can remember in CS interp 0.01 was considered a cheat because it meant you could spray and wave your gun about and you would get mysterious headshots
same goes for the TFC hwguy,set your interp real low and you get hits that you simply wouldnt get if it was a default values (yes i admit it ive done this <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> im ashamed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I always thought interp was locked in NS but now i find its not it explains a few things
"super" marines that never miss....boring
i stopped playing NS because of these mystery skillz players and now its seems its been down to interp
make no mistake about it,interp may not be a outright "cheat" but it is definately an unfair advantage used by people who are boarderline cheats and certainly not sporting players
those peopel who consider themselfs "leet" and when you question their unusual skills will replay with "lol" and possibly "noob" they are generally the type to use interp
NS was better of with it locked as it is extreamly exploitative when you know how
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By using a low ex_interp (IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER COMMANDS as the obtuse league admins and cheater hunters always added)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you type cl_extrap into the source engine you will notice its listed as a client cheat,perhaps this is one of those other commands? there are a few similar suspect commands.We can only hope that valve will make the new vac pick this sort of thing up <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no. Interp is a legit command now, it was fixed ~6 months ago IIRC, and that's why it became unlocked.
Edit: GUYS STOP TALKING OUT OF YOUR **** PLEASE. Interp isn't exploitative anymore. cl_extrap isn't even a command (ex_extrapmax is). Jesus christ so much bs gets spewed on these forums. If you don't have a clue what you're talking about, don't talk.
I'm not saying there is no way to get an advantadge with netcode settings (teleporting advantadge, not an advantadge at hitting people), but AFAIK interp has nothing to do with it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
damn i love peopel who like to talk about others spewing bs
i know very well what the correct extrap command was i just didnt want to give anybody ideas
ill own up
ive been exploiting interp in games like tfc and cs for ages
particularly in cs
every time i came across a player i felt was a bit dodgy or perhaps just plain obnoxious i would lower my interp and spray headshots at them till they left <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
it works....i know it works it has worked for years and it still works now
i dont feel at all bad about it tho cause trying to play honestly in HL mods generally means you get called a noob
be interesting to see if dragon actually tests it and reports back because its so blatently obvious when your getting kills that you know you shouldnt and know you wouldnt if you did not exploit interp
i migth add to this that being shot at by a player who is exploiting interp is different from being shot at by an honest player
i cant explain exactly what i mean but the bullets land differently and slightly oddly,if you played enough you would probably get what i mean
what you have to remember about half life mods is that the tfc community (particularly one of the large ones im thinking of) pulled the engine apart years ago
every exploit,every bug,every silly little lameness to gain an advantage....its all been found out so when a game like ns comes out there is a whole player base that already knows how to exploit
btw your right in HL its ex_ cl_extrapmax it the source engine command and if you were to type in cl_extr the console would finish the command for you
i beleive i did say source engine in my post....
every exploit,every bug,every silly little lameness to gain an advantage....its all been found out so when a game like ns comes out there is a whole player base that already knows how to exploit <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played TFC competetively for 5 years...
and the difference between TFC and CS despite all the flak that CS players get is that the better class of CS clan server clamped down on most of this sort of thing where as in TFC you can get away with just about anything (including changing skins...another thing that is common in NS that shouldnt be)
even a few of the more serious DOD clan servers will limit you to 0.05..
TFC players are in the minority here as the majority of the other mods either frown on or ban low interp settings completely and i feel it will be/has been a mistake to allow NS to go down the path of TFC
forgive me for asking but what value of interp do you use in NS?
and do you feel that if interp was locked and fair and equal for all players you would be less effective?
A quote I once heard, went something like:
"To those that believe, no proof is needed. To those that don't, no proof is enough."
It was originally referring to religion, however I believe it fits in these kind of circumstances too.
Regardless of that quote I'll cut out my mathematical examples and leave you with this...
People seem to be concerned that ex_interp gives an advantage, it DOES. So do the other network commands. You may not realise but there are many different types of computers and connections around, which is exactly why a good engine provides variables so that people can change them to match their system.
First of all you have to understand that the server has a lot of data to transfer and process, it is very difficult if not impossible for every client to see exactly what the server sees at the exact same time.
As was already said previously in this post, interpolation means "to estimate values of (a function) between two known values".
The key point is that interpolation is an ESTIMATE, this means that there is a chance for errors to occur.
By lowering the time between these estimates, the result is a more accurate representation of what the server sees. THAT is the advantage.
When used correctly ex_interp will provide a more accurate "picture" of what the server sees, compared to guessing many frames between updates from the server when using default commands.
Surely you can understand that if your client is showing a more accurate representation of what the server can see, that is an advantage. In my opinion, an entirely fair advantage.
In reference to your story of being able to get more headshots when lowering your ex_interp value, that is most likely because your client was drawing the enemy positions more accurately than before, so your shots were more likely to be on target from the servers point of view.
For the record, ex_interp is dependant on several other things. If I remember correctly these are:
FPS for both client and server, cl_updaterate and sv_maxupdate.
Assuming a perfect environment, your ex_interp value should be set to 1/cl_updaterate, ex_interp 0 sets this value automatically. So for example, cl_updaterate 100 and ex_interp 0 would results in ex_interp being automatically set to 0.01.
Of course linux servers are limited to 50FPS by default and I believe Windows servers are limited at 60FPS, these can be uncapped somehow though. sv_maxupdate also plays a big part because the default server config sets that to 30. Meaning even if you have cl_updaterate at 100, you will only recieve 30. As a result of this, using ex_interp 0 will also result in a wrong value and often causes the choppiness that people have commented on.
If a server has 100 FPS and sv_maxupdate 100 and the client has 100 FPS when using cl_updaterate 100 and ex_interp 0, it should provide the most accurate information.
On a finishing note, I once read a brilliant article about network settings which was specifically written for an old version of CS. It explained what almost every setting did, it provided mathematical examples and best of all it provided video clips showing how these settings could affect the client (even using an aimbot so that human error was not to blame).
I've attempted to track down this article to link in this post as it would explain everything in far more detail than I ever could.
If anyone knows where to find that article, please link it in this thread, it would be useful.
Feel free to correct any mistakes I made and I update my post.
It's ignorance, even people running "serious DOD clan servers" might be wrong, no?
[Edit] I was referring to Alien Breed's last post.
And that is exactly what I have done. Lots of times.
If you dont know a lot about the HL netcode, dont even bother reading this post any further. I will give a brief explanation of some of the commands, and how i understand them to work. And if you dont agree with me, go and join a server with a few friends, and test this out for yourself. I will even on request, upload some demos to an ftp so that you can see what I am talking about.
First off lets start with the most common rate commands, rate, cl_cmdrate, and cl_updaterate.
Rate is the amount of incoming data per packet that you receive from the server. The higher your rate value is set at, the less choke you will get (taking into account that you have a decent connection).
cl_updaterate is the ammount of packets that you receive every second from the server. A decent value for this command would be anything above 30.
now comes the most important one in this discussion, and there has been mass confusion about this command for years in this community (and other HL mods / games as well). cl_cmdrate is <b>THE AMOUNT OF FRAMES PER SECOND THAT YOU SEND TO THE SERVER EVERY SECOND</b>. Why is this so important?
Because if a player assigns a low value to cl_cmdrate, he will be sending a low ammount of frames per second (FPS) to the server, meaning that he will basically be teleporting around.
But how will you notice that someone is using a low value for cl_cmdrate? There is only one way - by using a correct value for interp on your client.
Im sure by now everyone knows that ex_interp sets the timing for prediction inbetween frames received from the server that you are playing on. If you are using the correct interp value for your client, you will see 100% accurate hitboxes. This meaning that if a player is sending low FPS to the server (which is directly determined by cl_cmdrate), you will see him teleporting around on your screen because he is sending a low ammount of FPS to the server. Let me use an example:
NSPlayer uses the following rates: rate 10000, cl_cmdrate 10, cl_updaterate 30. Lets forget about rate for now, it is not that important. what is important though is the last two commands. his cl_updaterate is set to 30, meaning he will receive 30 FPS from the server. His cl_cmdrate is set to 10, which means that he is sending only 10 FPS to the server. This means that the server is receiving updates from the client every 0.1 seconds. This means that if at any time he strafes left or right while running at you, and there hasnt been an update received (server from the client),you will still see him running towards you, but you will not see where his correct hitbox position is, <b> MEANING YOUR BULLETS WILL MISS </b>. This is taking into account that you are using incorrect interp values.
So how do you see what value a player is using for his cl_cmdrate? Simply by using correct ex_interp values for the rates that you are currently using. Your ex_interp value should be your 1/cl_updaterate (1 divided by your cl_updaterate value). And if your not into maths, and you dont know where to turn on your calculator, you can easily set it to the correct value by opening your console, and typing: "ex_interp 0". By setting it to 0 , your client will automatically start using the correct value for ex_interp.
Now most of you have not even bothered looking into this, meaning that you will most probably still be using the default value for ex_interp, which is 0.1 . If this is the case, then i suggest you set your cl_updaterate to 50 (or higher) and afterwards you set your ex_interp to 0 (because your interp value is based on your updaterate value). Then connect to a server - i gaurantee you that you will be seeing whats really going on. Yes, some players will teleport, (because of low cl_cmdrate values) but at least you are seeing their correct hitbox positions, and not some illusion.
This my friends, is how ex_interp works. Its not some kind of hack, cheat, exploit etc... You cant change your interp to a value that gives you an advantage, because its not possible, except if you are of opinion that seeing correct hitbox positions is an advantage (in which case i reccomend you use the correct ex_interp value for your rates).
PS: People telling others to change their cl_updaterate because they are "teleporting" should hopefully now see that cl_updaterate has nothing to do with teleporting. cl_cmdrate is the culprit. I seriously suggest that the dev team sets a minimum allowed cl_cmdrate value of no less than 30 in the next version of ns, and that they also lock cl_rate to 9999.
Please pm me on irc if you want anymore information on this.
edit: just corrected something. (1/cl_updaterate)
One thing though, your ex_interp should be the inverted value of your cl_updaterate
ex_interp = 1/cl_updaterate
So for an updaterate of 30 (which most often is the max value possible on public servers due to sv_maxupdaterate), your ex_interp should be 1/30 = 0.0333[...].
ex_interp = 1/cl_updaterate
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, tried to edit that, but the forums went down for a minute or three?
:P
Swirl, if what you have said is true, then why does every mod, or even the HL engine, fix your updaterate and cmdrate to equal values?
From what you've explained, any player wanting an edge will set themselves a low cmdrate and ahigh updaterate - why then, has no one thought to remove the user input on cmdrate, and hardcode it to equal what ever the user sets for his/her updaterate. That way if you want to get lots of information on other people's positions, the downside is you give them more information on yours. Similarly if you want to lower yours, you have to reduce the amount you get... Suddenly every one has to reach a compromise and will the positives/negatives cancel out resulting in fair play (ignoring ALL other factors effecting this)...
-- As said at the beginning of this post, I have admitted to my relative ignorance of knowledge of the HL netcode currently (3-4 years ago I knew all this stuff!)
So, looking at this discussion from the perspective of some one not in the know, here is something to consider when making your posts putting forward what you believe to be the truth of the matter: sources.
a lot of people have thrown in a lot of ideas and beliefs into this discussion. a lot of them are absolute pants. a few of them are likely very accurate and should be well considered. The problem I'm having with this, is no one is yet to show me their source of information. Some one show me a video, or a server stat-printout, or some word on this from the people who made the engine (ie Valve).. it's all very well saying "my interpretation of how this works is.." but what if you're interpretation is wrong? Then you're entire argument is based on a false observation resulting in it being about as useful as a catflap in an elephant house.
If you want people to accept your input into a discussion of this nature (where, as previously pointed out, a lot of people are talking bs), then give us reason to believe you - show us facts, not your opinions...
Fine, I will go and record some demos and post them here. Then you can see for yourself.
Screw sources, i will give you evidence.
i still maintain that what interp does on paper does not accurately cover the effect it actually has in-game
if you really want to know what it does go mess about with it yourself and it will become obvious how some players do the things they do
if you think its an exploit or not i guess is down to personal opinion
this is a small extract from flyingcows foom tfc link
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Using a lower than default ex_interp value will cause the player model to push slightly ahead of the server confirmed hitbox on your client comp. That may seem undesirable because shotgunning the client drawn model may in fact miss the hitbox, but in competition it is actually a nifty (sarcasm) advantage, especially for area damage weapons. Many times you will miss a fast moving, dodging enemy - usually you are too slow and your shot lands where he just was. Since the settings cause the hitbox to trail your opponents player model, your miss is a hit! Viola, instant skill.
Also consider an offense player coming around a corner to a defending soldier. The soldier will see the enemy player model come around the corner before his
real (hitbox) position. This will give the soldier a timing advantage for shooting. Additionally, with certain settings, the timing window for registering full damage hits is lengthened, causing the server to confirm more hits and making the hitbox feel enlarged on the client side. (If you are one of today's typical TFC players, you will brag about your skill even if it comes from haks like this).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
of particular interest the time where full dmg hits are registered - this is how you get "lucky" headshots in CS and also i suspect why some players in NS appear to have not only supurb aim but bullets that hurt more than other players
i will post the link again because its an interesting read <a href='http://www.foom.net/fortressfiles/netcode.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.foom.net/fortressfiles/netcode.htm</a>