Mineshaft Version 2

KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited October 2015 in Mapping
I've had many discussions with quite a few people about how much I love Mineshaft, but many people dislike it due to balance issues.
I've said for a while that I wanted to learn how to use the spark editor, and I've finally gotten around to starting to learn.
I've made some fairly minor adjustments to mineshaft that I hope will make for more enjoyable matches on it.
Bare in mind that none of the changes are huge overhauls, just basic things that I believe will help make the map more enjoyable... and what I have done so far is only a small amount of what I would like to do eventually.

Feedback is welcome and constructive critisism is appreciated.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=532452055

mod ID: 1fbc92d7

*** EDITED ***

CHANGES SO FAR:

Removed RT from Central Drilling.
Blocked Crusher to Cart Tunnel.
Blocked Central Drilling to Cart Tunnel.
New route through Cavern added.
Cavern now has a "Vent" where the previous route has been blocked.
Added vent from Crusher to Cavern.
Blocked Vent from Sorting to Crusher.
Added a few props and moved some props a little.
Added Vent connecting Cave, North tunnels and Crusher.
Collapsed walkway in Central Drilling.
Blocked off 1/3rd of Central Drilling.
Removed Deposit Tech point.
Minor changes to the gap.
Removed vent from Water pump to cart tunnel.

PICTURES:

The Water Pumps to Cart Tunnel Vent is now blocked.
Water%20Pumps%20Vent%201_zpsxmccllrw.jpg

Deposit no longer has a tech point
Deposit_zps1b7u0fxm.jpg

North Tunnels Vent entrance
North%20Tunnel%20Vent_zpshjylorpg.jpg

Crusher Vent entrance
Crusher%20Vent_zpsoamsj1g0.jpg

Cave Vent Entrance
Cave%20Vent_zpsujwbmkyh.jpg

Crusher to Cavern has been blocked
Crusher%20-%20Cavern_zps9bhsjuic.jpg

Central Drilling 1/3
Central%20Drilling%203_zpspshnvlai.jpg

Central Drilling 2/3
Central%20Drilling%202_zpsz6pno5pr.jpg

Central Drilling 3/3
Central%20Drilling%201_zpsycmxvwfd.jpg

Cavern Vent 1/2
Cavern%20Vent%202_zpsvcpgbu6t.jpg

Cavern Vent 2/2
Cavern%20Vent%201_zpsghilwnn5.jpg

Cavern/Cart Tunnel to Crusher is now blocked
Cavern%20-%20Crusher_zpsf0qx5cgv.jpg

Cavern Vent to Crusher 1/2
Crusher%20Alt%20Vent_zpstalhv8gs.jpg

Cavern Vent to Crusher 2/2
Cavern%20alt%20vent%201_zps0utqzewo.jpg

Cart Tunnel To Central Drilling route now blocked
Cavern%20-%20Central_zpsxngs9vxx.jpg

Cart Tunnel and surrounding area from above
Cart%20Tunnel%20Above_zpsjui0zkas.jpg

Central Drilling changes from above
Central%20Drilling%20Above_zpstkz4fj3a.jpg

Minimap
nsl_mineshaft_zpsh04m9dm2.jpg
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Comments

  • FlaterectomyFlaterectomy Netherlandistan Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    My primary feedback is: include an in-game screenshot of the map in this thread, as well as of the changed rooms! :P
    Off Topic Disagree 3Agree Awesome
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    edited October 2015
    #HowToDeleteComments?
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  • FlaterectomyFlaterectomy Netherlandistan Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts 
    [img]http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Chankarn/Mineshaft V2/mineshaft v2_zps0wydf245.jpg[/img]

    And so forth.
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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    edited October 2015
    Thanks bud :)
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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    edited October 2015
    #HowToDeleteComments?

    #OnlyTheEvilOverlordsCanMakeItSo :D
    - and right now I'm just leaving this here for reference - Kouji_San

    Thats just... well... Evil I suppose... good job :P
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  • MisterOizoMisterOizo Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178214Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    Are Aliens now restricted to starting from Cave and Marines from Operations?
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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    Aliens can spawn Cave or Sorting. Marines can spawn Operations or Repair....

    I'm trying to find the old entity for spawns so that I can change it so that Op > Sorting cannot happen... but so far no luck. I'd like the spawns to be Op > Cave OR Repair > Sorting... no other possible spawns.
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  • RustyRusty Canada Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185850Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver
    @Kasharic Can you post an in-game screenshot of the minimap? I'm curious as to whether you've moved the deposit tech to another point or just removed it completely? Be interesting to see the final product!
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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    edited October 2015
    Rusty wrote: »
    @Kasharic Can you post an in-game screenshot of the minimap? I'm curious as to whether you've moved the deposit tech to another point or just removed it completely? Be interesting to see the final product!

    Bottom "spoiler" of the first post bud :)

    10 RTs, 4 Tech Points (Sorting, Cave, Repair and Operations)
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Rusty wrote: »
    @Kasharic Can you post an in-game screenshot of the minimap? I'm curious as to whether you've moved the deposit tech to another point or just removed it completely? Be interesting to see the final product!

    Bottom "spoiler" of the first post bud :)

    10 RTs, 4 Tech Points (Sorting, Cave, Repair and Operations)

    That does not show tp or rp. We mostly know where they are, but I did not realize deposit was not an tp until recently.
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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    Nordic wrote: »

    That does not show tp or rp. We mostly know where they are, but I did not realize deposit was not an tp until recently.

    Its listed in the changes... and there is a picture showing Deposit without the tech point.

    I will take a screenshot of the map in game later and add that too, hopefully that will clear things up a little more.
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  • Saffron_bakerSaffron_baker Sweden Join Date: 2015-06-09 Member: 205352Members
    It would be a disadvantage for the khara with only 4 tech points
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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    edited October 2015
    lussebull wrote: »
    It would be a disadvantage for the khara with only 4 tech points

    Please explain why, with Derelict, Veil, Nexus and more maps only having 4 tech points, why would only having 4 tech points be a disadvantage to the Kharaa on mineshaft? Please keep in mind that the intention of these alterations is to make the map more balanced for 6 vs 6 play, and that routes will be blocked/extended/changed as is needed... its possible mineshaft will look very different by the time I am finished with it.
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  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    Kasharic wrote: »
    lussebull wrote: »
    It would be a disadvantage for the khara with only 4 tech points

    Please explain why, with Derelict, Veil, Nexus and more maps only having 4 tech points, why would only having 4 tech points be a disadvantage to the Kharaa on mineshaft? Please keep in mind that the intention of these alterations is to make the map more balanced for 6 vs 6 play, and that routes will be blocked/extended/changed as is needed... its possible mineshaft will look very different by the time I am finished with it.

    It won't work with many people. 4TPs maps and more than 6vs6; the alien start to lack options. And they desperately need it in the form of a hive. If you play on server with reapers above 1750, you clearly see that. The early fights are so important that it just end the game sometimes.

    More hives bring more options but also more of "the marine have to look back". In 4 TPs maps they don't need to be careful as in a 5 TPs map (or more TPs as it would be fun to try).

    Less hives means less difficulty for the marine. So with 20 player on a server is just isn't doing good. The map do not inflates if more players connect.

    The Aliens depend on hives.
    The Marines depend on Arms lab / PG.
    Not the same deal.
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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    UncleCrunch wrote: »
    It won't work with many people. 4TPs maps and more than 6vs6; the alien start to lack options. And they desperately need it in the form of a hive. If you play on server with reapers above 1750, you clearly see that. The early fights are so important that it just end the game sometimes.

    More hives bring more options but also more of "the marine have to look back". In 4 TPs maps they don't need to be careful as in a 5 TPs map (or more TPs as it would be fun to try).

    Less hives means less difficulty for the marine. So with 20 player on a server is just isn't doing good. The map do not inflates if more players connect.

    The Aliens depend on hives.
    The Marines depend on Arms lab / PG.
    Not the same deal.

    Thank you for your reply, but, and I don't mean to be a stickler here, I did state that I'm balancing for 6 vs 6 play... this is intended to hopefully take a spot in the competitive map pool. mineshaft in its vanilla form is fine for pubs in my opinion.
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Ns2 maps can do 4 or 5 techpoints equally well. Both give mappers a different option to try, and players a different kind of gameplay.

    I personally prefer 4tp maps. I really like how when aliens get 3 hives, the game is pretty much over. 3 hives built should = marine loss.

    @Unclecrunch, I have a hive skill >1750 so would I be considered a reaper? I don't clearly see what your stating at all. In fact I just stated I disagree.
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  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    i think the biggest issue with the map is having a double res node location in a heavily marine favored room on 1 edge of the map instead of centre.
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  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    Nordic wrote: »
    @Unclecrunch, I have a hive skill >1750 so would I be considered a reaper? I don't clearly see what your stating at all. In fact I just stated I disagree.

    6vs6 is ok at that level. Take 10 of them and the Aliens have a hard time to defend. I mean it's not like any given pub game. More like a net made of bullets.

    3 hives is the last pieces to complete the alien tech tree for being able to cope with A3/W3 in the end of the game.

    There is no difficulty understanding that. More locations means more possibilities. Maybe more fun...
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  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Thank you for your reply, but, and I don't mean to be a stickler here, I did state that I'm balancing for 6 vs 6 play... this is intended to hopefully take a spot in the competitive map pool. mineshaft in its vanilla form is fine for pubs in my opinion.

    you can have a 5TP map for competitive.

    I don't see why people want to make competitive maps (so called competitive BTW) while it makes flee many new comers if not all of them.

    Make it for everybody...
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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    edited October 2015
    deathshroud wrote: »
    i think the biggest issue with the map is having a double res node location in a heavily marine favored room on 1 edge of the map instead of centre.

    Take a look at the changes bud, thats already been dealt with.
    UncleCrunch wrote: »
    you can have a 5TP map for competitive.

    I don't see why people want to make competitive maps (so called competitive BTW) while it makes flee many new comers if not all of them.

    Make it for everybody...

    There are plenty of people with the ability to update a map to make it "more fun" for pub games... I'm wanting to take a map that currently isn't being used in comp AT ALL and make it viable. That is the only reason i'm working on mineshaft... otherwise I would start work on my own map.
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    UncleCrunch wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    @Unclecrunch, I have a hive skill >1750 so would I be considered a reaper? I don't clearly see what your stating at all. In fact I just stated I disagree.

    6vs6 is ok at that level. Take 10 of them and the Aliens have a hard time to defend. I mean it's not like any given pub game. More like a net made of bullets.

    3 hives is the last pieces to complete the alien tech tree for being able to cope with A3/W3 in the end of the game.

    There is no difficulty understanding that. More locations means more possibilities. Maybe more fun...
    I think of 4 hive maps as more variety from 5tp maps, therefor more fun. >1750 marines are not impossible to kill. All I play is pubs by the way, I am not involved with comp ns2. I can honestly say I have tended to have more fun on 4tp maps than 5tp maps.
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  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    4 hive is traditional NS. NS2 became 5TP because of previous requirements that meant marine needed a 2nd CC for higher tech etc.

    4TP tends to lead to more confrontational games, as marines will look to lock down a hive, and aliens will eventually have to break that to get their 3rd hive. With a 5TP map, marines lock down a hive, but aliens still have free run into the other 3. It reduces the need for confrontation and produces a more sporadic and spread out game.

    From a mechanics perspective, going any higher than 4TP makes the game easier to tech up, and ultimately leads to loads more end game tech coming out sooner. This is great fun, but it does take out a large amount of the tactical elements of NS2.

    Going to a 6TP map, well really, what is the point? It just means marines have 5 different hive locations to worry about and gives aliens a much bigger chance to gain map domination and ultimately overpower the marines.

    Tech & Res costs are balanced around the marines upgrade mechanics, the ability to tech up in a single location, and the aliens costs are based around the need for expansion. Less Tp's make the game require more focus from aliens and a generally slower tech-up rate, more TP's make it much easier for both teams to tech up easily, but aliens get the much greater advantage as it plays into the needs of their territory based expansion..

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