NS2 balance discussion as of build 266
aeroripper
Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
After a lot of time with the game, there are a few things that I think need another balance pass:
The Exo
- They're too weak and expensive for their cost. They should be a tech path just as viable as JPs are currently.
- They should be given the ability to weld other marines and exos if the user purchased a welder while still in the suit. This would go a long way to increasing their survive-ability without having to take a light marine out of combat to babysit them. Exo trains would be similar to how heavy trains worked in NS1. Currently MACs are too feckless to consistently fill this role.
- A price reduction to be comparable to JPs. Give them an armor boost and slow them down to the same level as heavies were in NS1. The choice between the two tech paths is between mobility and slow moving, but heavy firepower.
- Make them so they can't be beaconed again. I really enjoyed this mechanic before it was removed. If aliens see an exo train coming, their best defense is to ready bilebomb to counter it, and rush marine start to force a beacon. Having an onos with bone shield can help as well.
- Remove the "very slow while firing" mechanic. If the base walking speed is slowed, this annoying implementation can be removed.
The Fade
- Remove vortex and stab and replace with a better mechanic. I would say metabolize is a good choice, but that would bring the return of super fades. I wouldn't mind personally.
The Shade
- It's ink ability is underused and not nearly as effective as heal wave and echo on the other chambers. Since its ability is highly situational (only really used when being ARCed out), it doesn't get used a lot. Some changes could be to make the ink cloud last longer. It's non-use is also because its uncommon to get shade hive first or second.
The Grenade Launcher
- Player damage could be reduced a bit. The flamethrower is powerful in its role (disabling), then then gl should have its own role (structure destruction). Some player damage is fine, but it seems unreasonable currently.
MACs
- They jiggle and stand still when under any attack. This should be removed. It would also be nice to not have them group up in a giant ball when you have more than one in a hotgroup. Either enhance the AI code for grouping, or give them a "scatter" key like other RTS use.
Grenades
- Reduce the primer timer animation. You should be able to throw quickly after arming them.
A lot of these things would have to be tested for viablity, but I think overall these categories are problem areas currently with NS2 balance.
The Exo
- They're too weak and expensive for their cost. They should be a tech path just as viable as JPs are currently.
- They should be given the ability to weld other marines and exos if the user purchased a welder while still in the suit. This would go a long way to increasing their survive-ability without having to take a light marine out of combat to babysit them. Exo trains would be similar to how heavy trains worked in NS1. Currently MACs are too feckless to consistently fill this role.
- A price reduction to be comparable to JPs. Give them an armor boost and slow them down to the same level as heavies were in NS1. The choice between the two tech paths is between mobility and slow moving, but heavy firepower.
- Make them so they can't be beaconed again. I really enjoyed this mechanic before it was removed. If aliens see an exo train coming, their best defense is to ready bilebomb to counter it, and rush marine start to force a beacon. Having an onos with bone shield can help as well.
- Remove the "very slow while firing" mechanic. If the base walking speed is slowed, this annoying implementation can be removed.
The Fade
- Remove vortex and stab and replace with a better mechanic. I would say metabolize is a good choice, but that would bring the return of super fades. I wouldn't mind personally.
The Shade
- It's ink ability is underused and not nearly as effective as heal wave and echo on the other chambers. Since its ability is highly situational (only really used when being ARCed out), it doesn't get used a lot. Some changes could be to make the ink cloud last longer. It's non-use is also because its uncommon to get shade hive first or second.
The Grenade Launcher
- Player damage could be reduced a bit. The flamethrower is powerful in its role (disabling), then then gl should have its own role (structure destruction). Some player damage is fine, but it seems unreasonable currently.
MACs
- They jiggle and stand still when under any attack. This should be removed. It would also be nice to not have them group up in a giant ball when you have more than one in a hotgroup. Either enhance the AI code for grouping, or give them a "scatter" key like other RTS use.
Grenades
- Reduce the primer timer animation. You should be able to throw quickly after arming them.
A lot of these things would have to be tested for viablity, but I think overall these categories are problem areas currently with NS2 balance.
Comments
Expanding on the grenades though... I think the cluster grenade should have a more "clusters" and less damage on each (same overall). The effect would be that if it is detonated in an open area, it'll be roughly the same effect... but if it's tossed into a VENT... no more annoying vent gorge!
Comp mod has them currently start fires, which makes sense. A standard explosive grenade, or modification of the cluster grenade is needed for clearing vents.
Exos:
A reversion to the old super tank exos is all that is needed imo, a price reduction with the amount of armor and firepower they had would be a bit off in the price/power ratio.
Grenades:
Faster throwing would be a huge step to making them more viable
I would very much like to see marines spawn in with a single grenade (when grenades are researched), that cannot be replaced until spawning (think the first bomb in cluster nades without the spread), with the option to purchase the more powerful variants.
edited for clarity
Now that WOULD be a bit OP. On TGNS for a while, cluster grenades were unlocked at round start (and the other types were enabled with AA). It made it impossible for aliens to chew down rez, as all marines had to do was chuck a cluster grenade over there, and that was a guaranteed skulk kill, without much of any risk to the marine or possibility for the skulk to overpower them.
I was thinking more along the lines of a weaker non-cluster nade that was unlocked once grenades were researched, ideal for vents or to force a skulk off of the RT, but not able to kill unless he is right on top of the thing, think a frisbie mine. forgot to mention the research part
In ns1 the marines started with 2 grenades (if researched). I would like to see marines in NS2 spawn with 1 slowing grenade (yeah the one that no one buys because it sucks).
I once played in a server that had exos moving much faster, and able to jump. Also the marine jumps out when the exo got destroyed. I liked it very much.
Oh you mean cluster grenades?
Pulse grenades > all
Just because you haven't seen them, doesn't mean Exo's haven't been changed.
Here and here are the current changelogs for v2 and v3 of the CompMod.
Pretty much /thread
Perhaps some of those changes can be looked at for integration into vanilla? (ideally, I think we'd all want to play 1 game, and not have a comp mod be necessary)
I did some tweaks with a mod that I played for a few months. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204003592
I was trying to get cluster grenades used more in the early game, but they're still not very good at clearing vents like NS1 nades were.
I do miss spawning with grenades when researched from NS1, as they got a lot more use clearing RTs/vents.
I don't like the idea of making them even faster. Make them slower, but more survivable and offer them as an solid alternative to JPs.
I like many changes in comp mod, but not all. I am only aspire to be a pubber. I still want higher level games though. Flamethrower changes specific in comp mod I think might be more powerful than necessary as I am calling for a slight buff, although I do really like the big buff comp mod gives to them.
For those that remember, we shall reignite the cult of the flamethrower again!!!
I believe that'd shift their role a bit too much (and role confusion by being more spammable) by making them an obvious general upgrade and lean things into being OP once again (and possibly cause another kneejerk reaction). If they are beefier tanks, and can build, repair one another and have infinite ammo I think this is a bit much, and won't have as much depth as a result.
I think relying on a nominal 15% Armor increase but with more skill based movement abilities such as allowing the timed thrusters to work in all directions as well as removing any and all speed penalties, should do it. This provides a bit more of a skill curve by including timed evasive movements in an exo and even if it is relatively shallow, it doesn't overlap with roles that everything else (all macs and marines) already perform - and yet still provides the buff needed most with Exos: combat viability.
Those ideas seem like a more reasonable change to me than what I suggested. I didn't think about being able to build structures with the welder as an exo (which wouldn't be wanted). Price reductions could cause more significant balance issues as well.
It's hard to find the sweet spot between getting the "gg" coming from aliens when exos appeared, and the relative ease of killing exos now. The "not in your face" MAC change coming in 267, and maybe another behavior modification in a future patch will make them more useful attached to an exo as well.
I'd still like to see them not be beaconable again though, but I don't recall the balance discussions around the time that was changed.
I think exos should be a bit cheaper, but a bit weaker (in terms of armor). Maybe increase DMG and the whole directional thrusters deal. Increase JP cost to make the commander choose between the two.
Idk. Exos have always puzzled me in the ns2verse.
Maybe make them faster and have reduced speed on infestation?
Which of course is a letdown because(ns1 fanboy rant) back in ns1, heavy armor was everything an exosuit is and was still capable of filling the roll of a standard marine. (Building, welding, commanding, phasing)
Would be nice to see them make a come back.
When this state of mutual basetrading lasted for longer than 10 minutes, it usually resulted in an epic back and forth game where you had to relocate all the time, but most of the time it was just a neat game ender.
Am I the only one who wants to see this back?
The aliens have plenty of counters already, Onos has the bone shield ability, gorges with bile bomb, whips with bile bomb, crags with umbra. They wouldn't necessarily have to bring back the HMG for damage, I could see a heavy armor unit walking around with a personal minigun or railgun quite easily in addition to the standard marine equipment.
Of course all this cost money and it'd probably just be easier to get rid of exo's altogether, but that'd be a pr nightmare unless they replaced them with something better. So we'll just have to deal with the walking soda machine that'll continue being the noob trap and be balanced on for the rest of the game's existence.
I don't wholly agree with your statements, but I can see merit in your argument. But I LOVE your soda can description of an EXO!! I think I may has described them as walking tuna fish on the wiki.
And I'd actually be cool with that.
I dont think the thrusters should work in multiple directions for exos; aliens are about skill-based movement, marines are about positioning. Giving exos the ability to strafe around like mentalists will make them enfuriating to play against.
Yes, they were a bit OP before 250. Maybe they did a little too much damage.
The trick is to get it right this time
...maybe a mod is the way to go, though.
(Btw, is that modular exos mod still around??)