ns2_eclipse, 8 months later
_INTER_
Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
Now that we had 8 months to play on eclipse and a newer map to complain about, I was wondering what your opinion is on ns2_eclipse. New maps receive a lot of harsh feedback, because they're... well new.
I don't think eclipse is such a bad map anymore as I initially thought. I had a lot of exciting, interesting games on the map. However it certainly plays a lot different than the older maps.
Marines have to play very aggressive and Aliens have a hard time once they lost control of Core Access, Power Sub or South Loop, also Maintenance seems to be a bad choice for 2nd Hive / Marine forward base.
Still kinda think that the early game decides the outcome more than on any other map.
I don't think eclipse is such a bad map anymore as I initially thought. I had a lot of exciting, interesting games on the map. However it certainly plays a lot different than the older maps.
Marines have to play very aggressive and Aliens have a hard time once they lost control of Core Access, Power Sub or South Loop, also Maintenance seems to be a bad choice for 2nd Hive / Marine forward base.
Still kinda think that the early game decides the outcome more than on any other map.
Comments
But ya know, thats what marines are supposed to do so I dont truly mind.
Other maps just allow less pushy, defensive play.
Eclipse is interesting, that's really nice to play on this map, the layout is so much different than Summit, Tram or Veil but is it a good map?
For the competitive aspect? The answer is definitely no. Mostly Aliens wins.
Publicly? Hum, I didn't play NS1, so I have clearly a NS2 point of view here. The layout itself needs changes, small changes that can help a lot to improve the map, making it more balanced because yeah, Marines can win if they push (and hard) but in general, this kind of thing means Aliens rushing their main, and then, they win. The purpose of a map isn't to have only one thing that can permit to win. That strategy can work I guess if Aliens aren't too strong to face this. I hope you know that most of the games are mainly Aliens wins? I need to add something, Marines aren't supposed to push everytime you know? Play against smart players/or teams playing together, you'll see that Marines will lose if they think this strat is the best. In general, maps allow to have different strategies, not only one.
I do like the map, so much different and that's why Eclipse & Kodiak are interesting maps to be played. But I think Eclipse needs some changes, especially for natural Marines RTs, they need to keep easily around 2 or 3 RTs, that's actually not the case now, the 3 RTs near their main are readily bitable. Cause of ventilations and structure of the corridors.
Even if, when I read your comments here, you think the map doesn't really need changes right away, that is just wrong, there are reasons the map isn't appreciated on public servers & by the competitive scene. No need a huge work but only small changes. People already know that map won't be balanced in the future, we cannot change this, but I guess it is possible to help to make it a tiny bit more balanced than it is currently. NS1 maps do not seem to be always appropriate to be implemented in NS2.
Think about that.
As OP said - maintenance 2nd base / gates are horrible - same goes for eclipse. But that does NOT make it different from other maps. The maintenance and eclipse gates are equivalent to flight control or data core gates assuming you spawn sub access or atrium on summit. They're terrible in theory, and terrible in practise - I have no idea why so many people ever assumed otherwise.
As any other map, you want to establish control of the center, and on the aliens naturals. That means power sub, south loop and generator monitors. Again, no different from other maps! You don't have to be more or less agressive on this map really - you just need to keep pressure on those 3 points, just like you need to keep pressure on platform, mezanine and ore processing on tram.
Ime, eclipse has been absolutely marine favoured - perhaps one of THE most marine favoured maps in the pool. The corridors are small sure, but they are also very long - making it easier to punish over-commitments - but some way, some how, people have gotten the idea that it is alien favoured. Which leads me to believe, that the vast majority of the ns2 community simply doesn't understand how to play on eclipse, even now almost a year later.
The overall map layout is really not that different, the room layout is though.
Oh and about the vents, there are only 2 vents that are kind of anoying imo. The south loop one, and the one that goes to generator monitors. Put some mines in them - you should have them anyways, because the thin corridors work really well with mines.
I agree with this. Marines can dominate pretty easily on this map if their team has any semblance of organization. If marines control power sub, it will be very difficult for aliens to recover without actual coordination. Generator and South loop (and Power Sub which links them together) are critical areas for the aliens to hold and are often neglected. I think the map is much less forgiving of the team laziness that you can often get away with on other maps.
I've always been a bit disappointed that this map never achieved the level of greatness it had in NS1.
From what ive seen, its very fun.
(unfortunately the hate for kodiak hasn't allowed me to play eclipse more)
Triad, Access Alpha, and that other one over there are all too far away IMO for them to be considered naturals.
Alien Strategy is Get Maintenance. usually they succeed, having done that, it's far too easy for them to get the rt next to it on the marine side. If a gorge gets a tunnel and clogs set up in that chokepoint, good luck getting past that.
Marine Strategy is Get a phase set up in Power Sub Junction or somewhere down there. Only then can you hope to hold any RTs, while still pressuring alien hive.
I think it's too easy for Aliens to control the flow of the map, which wouldn't be too terrible a thing if Marines could have some extra resource flow to combat that.
Whenever a map vote comes up it's always refinery, veil, tram, and docking.
I wish map voting was recorded somewhere so the CDT could modify the least popular maps. It seems like such a waste to never play something that has had so much work put into it.
I hope somebody is working on this and not just dismissing it as "pub players don't know wtf", since Eclipse was an extremely popular map in NS1 and it would never have developed a bad rep if there wasn't a serious problem.
I played it, and I wasn't alone. Some NSL teams tried to play it, and of course, as all the maps on the game, it's possible for both side to win, but it doesn't mean it's balanced. Do you really think if this map isn't added on the competitive pool it's for no reason? Only because people refuse to play it? There are a lot of maps that need to be improved first, already (more or less) balanced enough & with their creator very active to work on.
Center? There's no real center on this map as far as I know. You just cannot keep pressure on these 3 points while Aliens keep harassing your RTs that are so far to be defended. Attack & defend on this map is not possible at all and that's why it's hard for Marines to win here.
Euh, what? Marine favoured? I'm not sure we're talking about the same map actually. Corridors are small and not so long as you think, there's enough stuff & props everywhere + so many ventilations Aliens can easily use to go behind Marines, to hide, or more. A Marine cannot escape most of the time when he's parasited because the Alien only needs to jump on him & bite, the poor guy has like 2 seconds to dodge or something. If there's more than only one Marine, that's definitely the same, being hidden in the vents (you can find them everywhere), jumping together (not alone of course) and they're dead. Using Shade Hive increases this fact though. You can win as Marine, but it's clearly easier for Aliens because of all this I mentioned. So yeah, it's Alien favoured, and not just because people thinks that, they think that because that's a fact, games are mainly Aliens wins, Marines don't lose because they think they will. If people do not understand how to play on Eclispe, that's only because they don't want to play it, when I join a public server on Eclipse, they want to changemap, or want to play as Aliens, why? And why, when we try to play as Marines, most of the time, we lose?
Summit, Biodome & Descent have the same layout in general, Veil & Tram are unique, Kodiak & Eclipse as well. Take a look on them, they're not like Eclipse, so yeah, in this game, all the layouts are not 100% different but don't tell me it's not so different. Corridors, Tech Points, & Res modify the map and that's why Eclipse isn't similar as the others.
Mines are effective, that's pretty right but, regardless of the structure & configuration of each room, all the vents are annoying. Some of them are surely more boring than some others. Corridors are small and vents are everywhere, or at least, in all the important rooms, the 3 natural RTs can be bited cause of this, one vent everytime to bite, escape, bite & escape. You can put mines here & here, but depending of the kind of vents, very long, if you're not stupid you can see them & avoid them or kill them if needed, Marines can put back mines again losing their pres again & losing time to rebuild RTs. So, mines are a good idea, but in general, mines work once, except if people are trapped twice or more. But again, the natural are too far and Marines will lose time & res to rebuild & keep maintening pressure on the Aliens side.
Another thing, a map must be balanced for public, new players who are not particularly aware of the strategies & gameplay need to have fun on all the maps, not being stomped as Marines because they don't know the good strategy to act. If a map is balanced enough, you don't need to play with THE good strategy to win in a special side, especially if you're not a pro-player. Normally, you'd be able to win both sides & not only one side when teams are unbalanced or not aware of the map.
I, for one, am dismissing it as "pub players don't know wtf", and I'd argue that it is justified. If it can be shown that the average pub player simply has poor priorities, which I'd maintain, then we should imo, aim to inform players rather than adjust the map.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/134067/eclipse-fix-or-fine/p1
I see aliens stomping marine game after game, particularly if the game goes for longer than 5 minutes. The only marine wins I've seen have been when they get a foothold at the start and end it early.
I would suggest at a minimum moving marine naturals closer to marine start.
I've seen quite a few long games on that map.
Eclipse: I also would like to hear feed back on those who called 'too much clutter' when the best way to play the map is up top?
Marines in pubs are still kind of slowly learning how to play. Eclipse has many un-obvious powerful PG locations - un-obvious because most of the decent PG places in other maps are rooms - eclipse is just all goddamn corridors!
Also as @Ricez mentioned, marines have 3 natural RTs. This is seriously weird as comm, you drop your starting shit and realise you're missing 10 res somewhere. Not to mention the fact that 2 of these RTs are naturals for potential alien hives, too. And that they're half an hour's sprint away from marine start. And surrounded by vents.
But the thing about Eclipse is that it was designed for NS1 game play, there for it best suites that, with that being said, it has been adapted very well over to Ns2, but there is far to many one sided games, this map is mostly about the skill of the teams, if one team have better skill then they 95% of the time win.
Very Pretty Map
Not based on Ns2 style gameplay (tho it can work really well)
Very one sided (based on skill of teams)
So many dam vents
RT's that take far to long to run to
Aliens can be pinned into there Hives very easy from game start even with tunnels
There is some other points also, but i think you get the drift, I do enjoy playing on the map as it can be fun, but mostly a headache as alot of players still dont know how to play this map, its not tram/summit/veil :P
There are some points where long open spots exist and it feels like these should be strong outpost points for marines to make chokepoints. (although on a map with so many ways around there arent many true chokepoints).
Keyhole server such a goal because both sides are fairly open and the less open route is to your own base.
That spot just above computer core techpoint is similar open. I dont know why so many love to go to the rt, its much more cramped.
What im trying to say here is not to condemn crowded hallways. As long as maps have positions around the map and close to hives which are more open, like hallways, marines have perfect options to make outposts, hold ground and push.
Kodiak is still fresh and has that new map smell so people are still getting used to it.. But it's a great example of the polar opposite - allowing for mistakes and making the outcome of a round harder to predict.
I don't think the defensibility of the marine base is an especially important factor. Games are decided by map control, and that's really hard for marines in this map. If the only solution to imbalance is to teach those newb marines "you have to get down here and set up a phase in this hallway every game, otherwise you're screwed" that is indicative of a design flaw IMO. In any case I don't see any way that this education would take place on a sufficient scale to bring this map back into public favor without big changes.
I do think it would benefit from moving the marine start a little closer to all if its naturals. (i.e. south) An unfocused marine team will spend all their time keeping their immediate res nodes from getting chomped, and it would be nice if they could spend a little less time doing that.
On eclipse, you have to put up a phase gate somewhere deep in the map, and you have to keep it up. This isn't too different from other maps, but it's much harder to recover if you lose your forward bases.
If the game isn't lost before fades are up.
Exactly. Aliens pretty much have to stall on 2-3 RTs or whatever they can hold until onii come out. If they cant last that long, it's more or less over. Once onii come out, unless the onii make some big mistakes its hard for the marines to do anything from that point to stop the big horny wrecking balls, regardless of what tech they're on
If aliens do a good defensive job in the first few minutes (especially gorging up the entrance to power sub from access alpha, and keeping generator clear), then they have a good chance to get higher lifeforms to end the game. Eclipse can be fantastic to lerk on in pubs, btw - so many vents that you can really harass the marines with easy escape routes. If there are a couple of comp players with shotguns, it gets quite hairy, but it's still decent to lerk on provided your team has held well in the first few minutes and kept up on the resbiting.
There are many alternatives to phase tech, infact I rarely go phase tech myself - But obviously there's always going to be superior phasegate positions on every map, no matter how well you design it.
I'm not saying, "you must get a phasegate at X or you're screwed". I'm saying "DON'T get phasegates at Y or you're screwed". - I'm not telling people what to do, I'm telling them what NOT to do.