Why I like esport, why I don't play it on NS2, why I don't watch it and why I will not donate for it
Okxyd
Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143981Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143981Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Hey guys, first and foremost I want to say that I'm "not against e-sport" on NS2, for me a competitive scene is very valuable to balance/entertain and keep good players on the game during a long time. Personnaly I have played competitively on few games like CS/CSS/Q3/Warcraft 3 or Wow, always at a humble level considering the top players but I enjoyed it, in 3 words: I like e-sport.
On NS2 I made few mercs, it was cool but some points were huge barriers to really involve in:
1) the time it took: when a 4 rounds during approx 1h30-2h, sometimes less (rarely) sometimes more (often) and the fact that during this time you fight the same team (which dominating or is dominated most of the time at 4-0). I rarely have the time to make a 2h30 match and the only one time I did one it was very exhausting and boring (at the end of the second round I just wanted to stop).
2) the constant "not very pertinent" adds and changes: in one year the game was almost totally changed. Skill is about to adapt but when with every "new content" patch it takes 3 months to have a balanced game, in a paradoxal way it prevents to experiment new strat or rise your playstyle because you have always to relearn a part of the game.
3) the "I have not enough players to make a team". The guys behind ENSL do a great job but the site is too unknown in consequence you can't have a competitive experience when you want/can. I don't think matchmaking will work in NS2 but integrate the ENSL in the interface of the game could be a great deal instead of being hidden in the forum (just a link which can be open in the steam navigator).
That is my particular experience, I don't pretend to be representative of anything but if you want attract more player you should concentrate on these points for me.
About the matches: I like to watch some stream of CS/CSS/Tribes/QL/TF2 or even COD sometimes, I don't play the last one but I find them very entertaining and it's not the case for NS2 (which is my main multiplayer game paradoxally) because:
1) there is no "realization" (don't know if it's the exact term), 99% of the game I saw was with a top-down or free view: it's boring as fuck, why ? Because NS2 is a FPS with a RTS part and not the reverse. When I see top teams with awesome players I want see how they aim with their shotty, how they move with their fade, where they look, one of the best thing in watching esport is to improve your skill by good players POV. There is absolutely no feeling, no entertaining, no intensity in a FPS with a top down view or a free cam, that sucks, really.
I know the spectator mode has troubles but if you pretend to have an audience, enhance it first.
2) The lack of suspense: from the 15 rounds I have seen, I saw only one comeback and it was a marines one. The most unforgettable (e)sport matches that I've seen were one with amazing comeback (AIM vs Fatal1ty or Daigo Umehara in 2004
) and there is definitely a lack of possibility in the actual game.
To finish I will not donate, not the fault of the players, not the fault of UWE stricto sensu but because I see nothing that will make the competitive scene more entertaining. Sadly, because if one game has an awesome potential for esport it's NS2.
However I'm probably wrong on some points but it's an overall impression of the actual state.
Now /discuss
On NS2 I made few mercs, it was cool but some points were huge barriers to really involve in:
1) the time it took: when a 4 rounds during approx 1h30-2h, sometimes less (rarely) sometimes more (often) and the fact that during this time you fight the same team (which dominating or is dominated most of the time at 4-0). I rarely have the time to make a 2h30 match and the only one time I did one it was very exhausting and boring (at the end of the second round I just wanted to stop).
2) the constant "not very pertinent" adds and changes: in one year the game was almost totally changed. Skill is about to adapt but when with every "new content" patch it takes 3 months to have a balanced game, in a paradoxal way it prevents to experiment new strat or rise your playstyle because you have always to relearn a part of the game.
3) the "I have not enough players to make a team". The guys behind ENSL do a great job but the site is too unknown in consequence you can't have a competitive experience when you want/can. I don't think matchmaking will work in NS2 but integrate the ENSL in the interface of the game could be a great deal instead of being hidden in the forum (just a link which can be open in the steam navigator).
That is my particular experience, I don't pretend to be representative of anything but if you want attract more player you should concentrate on these points for me.
About the matches: I like to watch some stream of CS/CSS/Tribes/QL/TF2 or even COD sometimes, I don't play the last one but I find them very entertaining and it's not the case for NS2 (which is my main multiplayer game paradoxally) because:
1) there is no "realization" (don't know if it's the exact term), 99% of the game I saw was with a top-down or free view: it's boring as fuck, why ? Because NS2 is a FPS with a RTS part and not the reverse. When I see top teams with awesome players I want see how they aim with their shotty, how they move with their fade, where they look, one of the best thing in watching esport is to improve your skill by good players POV. There is absolutely no feeling, no entertaining, no intensity in a FPS with a top down view or a free cam, that sucks, really.
I know the spectator mode has troubles but if you pretend to have an audience, enhance it first.
2) The lack of suspense: from the 15 rounds I have seen, I saw only one comeback and it was a marines one. The most unforgettable (e)sport matches that I've seen were one with amazing comeback (AIM vs Fatal1ty or Daigo Umehara in 2004
) and there is definitely a lack of possibility in the actual game.To finish I will not donate, not the fault of the players, not the fault of UWE stricto sensu but because I see nothing that will make the competitive scene more entertaining. Sadly, because if one game has an awesome potential for esport it's NS2.
However I'm probably wrong on some points but it's an overall impression of the actual state.
Now /discuss
Comments
Regarding time: Some people think that the NSL format (2 maps/4 rounds) goes for to long. I did, that's why the AusNS2 league has 1 map/2round matches. So, depending on what you are playing and where it could be completely different.
Yeah, I'd agree that the big changes shook up the game a lot, maybe too much. It did revitalise the community a bit though after it was dieing in b249, at least in Australia and that wasn't a bad thing at all.
Yep I'd agree with that as well. Although, UWE have gone to great lengths to support the competitive scene already. More couldn't hurt however. I like the idea of more of a network and collaboration between the communities rather than isolation. I think its getting better though.
There was a good discussion about this recently, and yes, this is getting improved on as well. More feedback for casters means we can get more entertaining shows. Just look at Reddog's stream's and you will see how much his show has adapted based on feedback from viewers and how positively it has grown.
The lack of suspense is I'm afraid your own personal dealings with the game because I have had a completely different experience. I can recall many games that were hanging in the balance and were extremely fun to watch. Also, I feel like the state of the game now is actually really enjoyable to watch sometimes. You can see the battles at a micro level between players but also the macro level between commanders. IMO the game has never been better (not saying that there isn't more to improve).
Anyways, Hope I provided another viewpoint I guess. I didn't mean to try to come across as against your viewpoint at all.
Reddog is clearly the best "director", the 2 matches I saw when he broadcasts were the ones with best actions recorded. On the contrary the few with Hugh were just... lame (sorry but that's what I think). By the way I still find boring to have a "bird" view of the game, it totally fits for a MOBA or a RTS, but for a game in which 10 of 12 players have a first person view...
The last streams I saw were before 257 (with the insane "fade ball"), I will check last matches soon, by the way if you have great match to share with me I will be happy.
Games are significantly more exciting in my opinion after reinforced.
Fades are now closer to their original gameplay style goals. They're a bit underpowered because the structure damage, but I'm happy with whatever keeps 4 fades off the field.
1) Just look at the latest matches in ENSL. The majority of them end in 4-0; hardly any rounds have epic comebacks.
2) One of the main reasons my team quit the game is the b250 overhaul. Before that, we were playing the ENSL Season 2. Over the course of time, we improved our skill to a point where we actually won that season. Of course, there were many other factors for CiB quitting NS2, but the most important of them was these constant major changes to balance and, most importantly, gameplay.
I'm pretty sure StarCraft 2 (without the expansion) did have its share of changes but did not completely revamp the way you control your units, or the tech tree of any of the races, or anything major. They were small changes, focused on balance issues, that ended up changing the meta-game, breaking certain build orders in favor of new ones. NS2 just flat out changed nearly everything on Gorgeous, then b250 (the "Sewlek's Balance Mod" change) and, more recently, Reinforced. These releases were as big (relatively speaking) as SC2: Heart of the Swarm, and that's over the course of 10 months compared to the three years between SC2 and its expansion. I know UWE has marketed Gorgeous and Reinforced as "expansions", but really, that's too much in too little time. It doesn't help that the playerbase is already small and keeps shrinking because of several factors, one of them being this.
3) That's the problem with the current resource model for this game. Once you lose [key lifeforms/structures/areas], it's pretty much over. On this point, I'd like to talk about another game which did the job right.
Savage 2, a game that shares NS2's genre, was very well balanced and very fun/rewarding to play. The win ratios were very close to 50-50, with negligible fluctuations to 53-47 or vice-versa.
There were 7 classes to choose from for each side plus three for the "super-units" which you got by collecting souls of the players you kill then brought them to an altar which you had to build and control (and was a highly contested area, obviously). They had very clear roles, and none of them had anything crazy like one-hit-kill abilities/weapons, insane movement and such (well, except for the super-units). It did require some skill to get the melee combat straight, but once you did that you could pretty much kill anything with anything, even with the builder class, as long as you were better than your opponent. Siege classes were very ineffective against units, though, and obviously you shouldn't be killing units with siege units as their role is to destroy bases while being covered by friendly fighters. Static defenses were very effective and required either the scout or siege classes to be destroyed.
Speaking of combat, this game had a strong focus on melee. The ranged attacks were only used for picking off fleeing targets or softening them on approach. Again, as said above, nothing in the game had any chance of one-shotting enemies, not even the super-units' abilities.
Players would also gain experience, level up and improve their characters over the course of a round, similar to MOBAs.
The commander actually had a major effect on how the matches played out. Even if you had one base, you could still come back through smart tactics and a good commander helping the team with well-placed ressurections and buffs. One-base comebacks were pretty common, and some matches would last over 40 minutes with a good back and forth between the two sides. Your base was also never safe -- a sneaky scout could plant a bomb at your main base and kill your structures behind your back, potentially removing some of your combat skills in the middle of a skirmish.
But the most important part of it all was how the resource model worked on that game. For one, you could pick any class at any point in time by going back to your base and just switching to whatever you wanted -- some of them were free, others cost gold (specifically, the upgrades to the basic fighters, and the siege units). Certain classes required a structure to be built before they could be picked. Players could also spend their gold on items or give them to the team pool for the commander to use or vice-versa. Certain skills/weapons required upgrades on said buildings, and some of them had prerequisites. IIRC, the Beasts' scout class had a secondary, long range lightning strike whose research required a second base. If you lost that base, the upgrade was gone instantly.
No matter what, you always had a choice between a builder, a scout or a fighter class (for free), and all three of them had an equal chance of fighting each other. In the mid-game, you could also pick a healer that buffed friendly units and dealt massive damage to the super-units, and an improved fighter with more health and damage. Late-game added siege units specifically for destroying bases.
Unfortunately it did not have as much publicity as NS2, but I'm pretty sure it would make for a great addition to the e-sport scene. But now it's too late -- last time I checked there were like 20 players on a single server out of eight. If Savage 2 was still alive I'd play that over NS2 anytime.
Honestly NS2 isn't doing too badly. Player retention can always be improved of course, but ns2 isn't even close to being dead yet so it is at least doing some things about right.
At least there are 5 months now to concentrate hard on performance and gameplay depth and balance before the world cup. With continued hard work, ns2 should have plenty of life left!
In any case, I played Savage 2 for awhile. It was good, but really completely different from NS2. It also had certain issues as well, although not nearly as many as NS2.
One of the great things about savage 2, which NS2 doesn't do so well, is comebacks. Savage 2 did not have a heavy snowball effect and I thoroughly enjoyed the melee combat in it. I enjoyed how commanders were picked. They had a system where before a round, anyone who wanted to be commander could choose something like "I want to be commander", then the rest of the players on the team would vote who they wanted for a commander.
However, some of the ranged FPS aspects felt more like a tacked on add-on to the game as the ranged FPS weapons did very little damage and did not employ lag compensated netcode so you had to lead your targets with them, which when facing fast targets is tough. Stacked teams happened, just like they do in NS2.
Then there was also the Free2play aspect with it. You could buy runes to make whatever character you are playing stronger. You can get a certain amount of runes free though, but you have to be lucky to get the right ones to be as good as someone who bought their specific runes. The legionnaire class with someone who bought the right runes for it was pretty much an overpowered class. That and the lack of players is eventually why I stopped playing it.
Then there was also the , what I'll call wall/hill hopping in the game. Which while fun, I could see how some new players might be turned off by it as the veterans would use it to great effect to run circles around newer players. There's a sprint in savage 2, where if you use it off a hill just right, you can go flying in the air at sprint speed without using any more of your sprint bar.
I enjoyed NS2 quite a lot, but for me, Savage 2 was just better in many aspects, especially balance, which is my main point there. This is where NS2 could learn a few things.
Oh, and it also had a very good tutorial system, replays and a decent spectator mode since release.