Armory and Armor

SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,329Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
hi everyone,

the balance mod thread is currently filled with opinions about armory armor healing. since the mod is about other things as well and this is still an important topic, i think its worth creating its own thread and to keep the other one a bit cleaner.

like any other change in the mod, this has been changed for testing and there has no final decision been made. its for evaluating its impact to the game and those are my observations so far:

As most of you maybe know, in ns1 armories didnt restore armor. I dont remember any big discussions about it back then and people simply accepted this rule. Also the commander was responsible for dropping welders and medpacks, which connected him a bit more to the troops on the ground. Most life forms, like in ns2, were designed around hit&run gameplay style (especially with focus upgrade) which made sure that you can eventually break through heavy marine turtles. There was a mod which allowed to weld yourself, but this mechanic had a completely different impact that to the game than ns2 armories.

In ns2, armories repaired armor. there was one build (not sure if it was internal only?) where armories lost this ability but I was myself playing only 2-3 rounds and couldnt really judge the impact of it on the game. Marines were also very weaker at this time (hit reg, lower performance, animation hitches for skulks and other technical problems) so we decided against this change, the timing was simply very bad.

now with release of gorgeous marines have an edge. especially in competitive play, marines are now winning (as opposed to pre gorgeous, alien wins were standard) and i think the timing is now perfect for trying out new (old) things and to also change the marine side.

The effects armory armor healing had on the game (mostly pub games):

Marines run back to their base to restore their armor (of course). they do that after every little combat where they took damage, since its a good idea to maximize your chances before every engagement. This caused the marines to be more disconnected from the commander. you wont request a medpack when you are anyway returning to the armory, which also causes that new commanders dont learn how important it is to support your troops with ammo / meds. This also causes that marines play very defensive, but in fact they should harass the alien teams economy and take down harvesters, or at least hold position and defend their own RTs. i seen this very often (and granted i played myself often like this) that any momentum marines got, simply vanished because of people being afraid playing without maxed out armor and returning to the base (no matter how far away). it also made forward armories ridiculous strong, and it made medpacks (again, public) the very weak alternative to forward armories. in organized play, this is different, so dont jump on me here :)

As mentioned in the other thread, it was a problem for aliens when they constantly have to face full armored marines. their play style is designed around hit&run (especially the fade), but their actions had zero effect in the end game. if you dont kill a marine, he will quickly have full armor again. By removing the armor healing, another marine would need to use a welder, which opens up a short time window for another attack since welding distracts. its a very small detail, but still important to mention. switching from welder back to your rifle / shotgun takes some time and aliens can abuse this fact. or, if there are macs on the field, those cost additional resources and the alien team has another target (only 600 dmg points for mac vs 2100 for armory) to weaken the marines position. I have seen in the games i played so far that macs were used more frequently than before as a consequence (those were usually held back until exos arrived).

in the games i played so far, there was always somebody with a welder or macs around. even in vanilla ns2, most commanders research welders first, and you see people constantly using them. also important to note, welders are not that crucial in the early game. marines start with 30 armor, those are in most cases not even worth the repair (against skulk this means one parasite would bring the marine already below a level where the can be killed with 2 bites). so, the early game is quite untouched by this change, what changes though is late game and especially situations where marines turtle in their main base.

the only negative side i observed so far is that marines lose a bit convenience.

there are for sure more things i didnt consider in my post, so feel free to correct to me!


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Comments

  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Posts: 395Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I don't get why so many people think armouries not healing armour will make a negative impact on gameplay, because it absolutely won't. The only thing it does is encourage teamplay. Think about it for a second. When do you really use an armoury to heal yourself? When you're turtling in base or pushing somewhere with a forward armoury. In both cases, you will very likely have other marines around. Keeping everyone welded won't be an issue even if only 2 marines in the team have a welder at any given point. For every other scenario, like getting to places, ramboing RTs or all-in hive rushes, you wouldn't have an armoury available anyway, so be thankful that due to the change, a couple of marines will now always take welders along everywhere.

    In addition to people learning they have to stick together to be efficient, everyone not running back to the armoury all the time allows and encourages you to push forward quicker as well. Players will naturally and intuitively learn to take turns welding, shooting and reloading. This is not "fake teamwork", it's something that should happen naturally, and this way everyone will be forced to adapt to a behaviour beneficial for everyone. It's just like someone else said, a mechanic that motivates players to work together and makes it clear this is a team game will eventually lead to actual teamwork. Intuitive learning is something severely lacking in this game, and this is a good enough start.

    On a sidenote, saying "I don't trust my team, they suck anyway" is a silly argument as well as destructive thinking. Even if that's true, it's up to you to teach them. If you want to play singleplayer or be in an environment where everyone is a high level player, you should probably look elsewhere than the average pub server.
    Savant wrote: »
    If people really want to go this welder route, then why not make the welder a 'stock' item marines spawn with and put it in slot 4. If someone buys mines they drop the welder. Then let the marines sort it out on their own.
    There's no reason to make welders free or even just cheaper. I nearly always carry a welder around as it stands, and can afford everything else I need throughout the game. If anything, it will stop 80% of the marine team from saving for exos and will introduce the feeling of having "roles" for marines: some people will always have a welder throughout a game, some will save for exo, someone will be the lonely RT rambo, and so on. This is also something that should happen naturally but often doesn't. With the welder change, coordination and communication needs to happen or you will likely lose the game. If you're not a selfish boob, you will see this as a good thing.

    deathst4rSavant.ADHd
  • Slyfox101Slyfox101 Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169370Posts: 58Members
    I must re-iterate that you are addressing an issue that most players will not take the time to understand, but it is a very important aspect of the game.

    Thank you Sewlek. :)
    halfofaheavendeathst4rNakorson
  • ReekeReeke Join Date: 2003-11-28 Member: 23688Posts: 773Members
    edited March 2013
    Completely agree with your reasoning Sewlek.

    Armories repairing armour just does too much to nullify the aliens hit & run style.
    Post edited by Reeke on
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,146Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I am absolutely for this change. Even now with armouries dishing out armour, I find myself quite often welding teammates and dropping my welder for them to return the favour if we're holding a forward tactical location (eg stability monitoring) and don't yet have an armoury there. This mindset isn't generally out there (I'm guessing a lot of peeps on pub servers never played NS1 where this was the norm), but when you do have a buddy who thinks this way with you, you can really tell the difference.

    Removing armour repair from armouries means hit and run tactics are useful again. It also brings back the very important question: when to weld? We should be welding each other while on the move, not stopping to have a group weld session (which WILL get you killed by the fade waiting for that very moment), so it raises the tactical/strategic awareness of players, or at least provides an increased skill ceiling for marines' macro placement and an increased strategic depth to the game (eg 'fake' welding teammates to lure the aliens waiting for the weld session into a premature attack... the options are plentiful ;) ).

    @Sewlek: I will be on your balance mod when I next play (I only get 3 nights a week to play), as it looks fantastic. In particular, this armoury change is, in my view, the way forward!

    Two Thumbs Up.

    Roo
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  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Posts: 1,123Members
    edited March 2013
    overall i'm against it, for the reasons stated in the other thread - but ultimately because you're telling the players how they can and can't play. i appreciate the benefits, but don't accept 'team play' as a benefit since you can already weld teammates right now. it is simply not the best option imo.

    i feel that moving the full healing from armory to advanced armory is sufficient to weaken armory turtling. it's 20 resources and 90 seconds, and would gently evoke the same teamplay while not completely eradicating the alternative.

    if it's a matter of balance, i would much prefer interesting changes like adding old alien abilities metabolize or focus.
    Post edited by tarquinbb on
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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,127Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    This change is desperately needed to improve the usefulness of skulks in the late game as well as allowing aliens to siege lategame marine turtles.

    If it's a problem with accessibility just get hugh to make a tip video about repairing marine armor with a welder.
    Emoo
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,329Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    tarquinbb wrote: »
    overall i'm against it, for the reasons stated in the other thread - but ultimately because you're telling the players how to play. i appreciate the benefits, but don't accept 'team play' as a benefit since you can already weld teammates right now. it is simply not the best option imo.

    if it's a matter of balance, i would much prefer interesting changes like adding old alien abilities metabolize or focus.

    you are not forced to use welders. the commander can simply build a MAC and park it next to the forward armory. im trying to follow your logic from the other thread, and this is something that immediately comes into my mind when you say "fake team play" (because of not being optional?)
    Nakorson
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,146Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Also, how many times have you tried to weld a teammate who instead starts running off back to base to hump the armoury? I have come across this situation quite a number of times! You can encourage them to stay with you holding the forward location over voice chat, but some people just ignore this and run off anyway. Requiring an armoury at every post even in part if only to stop this sort of behaviour is a bad mechanic. Getting marines to work with each other on the battlefield can only be a good thing. The effect on marines' ability to hold forward areas may in practice be negligible if they stay there while welding rather than running off to base leaving their buddy alone to get munched...
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  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    I will just copy my pro and con view on the topic form the other thread:
    _Necro_ wrote: »
    Advanced Armories repairing armor is a foul compromise. People that previously ran back to an armory will now run the same way + using phase gate back to main base to heal armor there. Also: No matter how slow it repairs, people will use it.

    Every comparison to armor regeneration at the alien team is also useless. It simply doesn't matter. This game is asymmetrical that means the less things we have that are "like team B", the better. If they are a root of balance issues, than this can be fixed. As long as the reward is greater than the loss, a change is a good idea.

    In the case of armories aren't repairing armor anymore the positives are:
    • increases teamplay and squad mentality (and yes, it did this in beta as it was tried!)
    • weakens the strength of very good players. (you can slowly whittle them down now, even if you are not good enough to kill them otherwise)
    • decreases the appearance of turtles
    • decreases the effectiveness of Rambo-tactics and single-players.
    • creates breaks in attacks, that aliens can use to counter-attack.
    • decreases the effectiveness of forward armories. (They are already very effective with ammo and health regen.)
    • increases the viability of building a robot factory before you need arcs.
    • it's a good replacement for alien scaling in late game. (Marines aren't running around with 90 armor at anytime anymore.)
    • it is fun to work together in a group. (As it was tried in beta, the feeling of being in a tight group of marines that keep each other alive was very cool.)
    The negative points as I can name (with my subjective view) are:
    • forces you into a dependence of your team members (can drag you down with a bad team)
    • is a nerf to marines effective health that probably needs to be compensated in one way to keep the game balanced
    • is a nerf to marines p-res that probably also needs to be compensated in some way.
    • could give an already bad team even more of an disadvantage. (Is this really bad? It's not that they can win right now. This way they lose even faster. Bad teamplay should be a loss.)
    • no fun with bad teamplay.
    Post edited by _Necro_ on
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,448Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    edited March 2013
    HitNrun buffs are finally being considered once more? Good stuff! I'm not sure about adding armour repair to Advanced Armoury though, the only purpose I see that having, is aiding the turtle during end game when the marines have lost. While still being plenty hardy due to their free armour repairs.

    You know my stance on this. HitNRun aliens > convenience, gameplay above all!

    I've never understood or accepted the "oh but why doesn't is also repair my armour" argument. Just because such a question might arise, doesn't justify screwing over the alien play style... Besides its already clear that it isn't healing your armour at first glance anyway, so it is also instantly understood that it doesn't repair armour.


    A case could be made against aliens getting repairs for their armour at the Hive, Crag or Gorge. But aliens are also more of a lone wolf type of play, not saying there is no teamplay. But in terms of their HitNRun playstyle, it makes more sense for them to have armour repairs. I mean they even have an option for personal Regen and their map control relies on guerrilla tactics, meaning they need to be more self-sufficient. It wouldn't make sense to only regain armour from the Gorge. Even more so because marines are brute forcing their way into areas, they don't base their entire attacks around hitNrun tactics. So it wouldn't affect them, where their playstyle is concerned... Asymmetry speaks it mind in this case ;)
    Post edited by Kouji_San on

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  • _jay_jay Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166951Posts: 17Members
    Roobubba wrote: »
    Also, how many times have you tried to weld a teammate who instead starts running off back to base to hump the armoury? I have come across this situation quite a number of times!

    Aliens seem to manage this synergy most of the time with no problems, everyone knows the gorges heal so they normally run to the nearest gorge depending on the local danger.

    Maybe have a welder/spanner icon above marines that have welders.
    deathst4rbriatxSleekbbeausej
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Posts: 1,123Members
    Sewlek wrote: »
    you are not forced to use welders. the commander can simply build a MAC and park it next to the forward armory. im trying to follow your logic from the other thread, and this is something that immediately comes into my mind when you say "fake team play" (because of not being optional?)

    admittedly i hadn't fully considered the MAC alternative... "comm, build an adv.armory we need heals!" or "comm, build an armory and send some MAC's".

    i think 'making macs viable' should have been your first bullet :p

    curious to try it... but still think i'd prefer to try more alien abilities (of focus/metabolize ilk) to ease the difficulty of hit and run, rather than change the bread and butter armory for armory + mac.


    the remaining problem is that if you're a skulk playing hit and run, how are you meant to know if 'marine X' has been welded back to 90 armor? you still have to go in and hit them to find out, ergo you still have to assume they have full armor.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Posts: 1,028Members
    Off the top of my head, I can say that I would not value full armour over the inconvenience and cost of buying a welder. I simply wouldn't do it. Not for anything other than an exo.

    If this has anything to do with promoting team work that way, it won't work. Its akin to making upgrades cost 1 res. Skulks simply won't take upgrades then.
  • Madd0gMadd0g Join Date: 2012-12-24 Member: 176116Posts: 91Members
    edited March 2013
    *Snip*

    Snipping your comment, to prevent the thread from going off-topic. This thread is about the Armoury and armour repair -Kouji San
    Post edited by Kouji_San on
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  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    @Madd0g: This change is not about balance.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,146Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Off the top of my head, I can say that I would not value full armour over the inconvenience and cost of buying a welder. I simply wouldn't do it. Not for anything other than an exo.

    If this has anything to do with promoting team work that way, it won't work. Its akin to making upgrades cost 1 res. Skulks simply won't take upgrades then.

    Don't underestimate the value of peer pressure ;) When the benefits are there, and when everyone else is doing it, will you still be stood at the side in a grump saying 'well I'm not buying one, you buy one!'? That will be a very fast way to ensure that no-one welds YOU :P

    It's a team game after all...
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  • gnoarchgnoarch Join Date: 2012-08-29 Member: 156802Posts: 256Members
    In NS1 it worked fine on any pub server. Comm would drop a couple of welders and marines would weld each other after each engagement which makes alot of sense because it makes you that much stronger without taking away momentum like frequent armory humping does.
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,448Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    gnoarch wrote: »
    In NS1 it worked fine on any pub server. Comm would drop a couple of welders and marines would weld each other after each engagement which makes alot of sense because it makes you that much stronger without taking away momentum like frequent armory humping does.

    This is also a good point! More mobility and map presence, instead of losing map control or engagements due to people running back to their safehouse. Staying in combat while keeping your combat effectiveness up to par in that very same area, that is what I want to see return to the battlefields of NS2!

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  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Posts: 1,182Members, NS2 Playtester
    Sewlek wrote: »

    you are not forced to use welders. the commander can simply build a MAC and park it next to the forward armory.


    See my post from the other thread:
    CrushaK wrote: »
    The marine commander could probably compensate with a Robotics Factory and MACs in the lategame, but it would be an annoying hassle due to the amount of babysitting you would have to do for the MACs. Two features that would really benefit it are:

    1. Guard Area - the commander sees a ring with the maximum range (should be about as big as an average marine start, i.e. diameter should be 2/3 of the width of Veil's marine start) and can place the ring as waypoint for the MAC. The MAC will weld everything inside this ring but always return to it's centre once everything has been welded and never leave the ring to follow a player outside of it (which is probably the #1 cause of MACs getting killed).

    2. Guard Object - the MAC gets assigned to a specific player or structure and will follow it constantly around until it's destroyed. This structure will get priority for welding from the MAC (if there are multiple damaged things around, the MAC will always weld it's assignment first). If it's at full health, the MAC will start welding stuff in very close proximity to it's assignment but will stop doing that as soon as it's assignment moves further away so that the MAC has to catch up.


    If you intend MACs to be used that way, there should be some mechanic that makes them less of a micromanagement pain that is easy to gank if left without care.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
  • ReekeReeke Join Date: 2003-11-28 Member: 23688Posts: 773Members
    In NS1 it worked fine on any pub server. Comm would drop a couple of welders and marines would weld each other after each engagement which makes alot of sense because it makes you that much stronger without taking away momentum like frequent armory humping does.
    This is also a good point! More mobility and map presence, instead of losing map control or engagements due to people running back to their safehouse. Staying in combat while keeping your combat effectiveness up to par in that very same area, that is what I want to see return to the battlefields of NS2!

    Exactly. Those hardline against this change seem to be completely ignoring the fact it was tried, tested and worked just fine in NS1 for years.
    deathst4r
  • ToastieToastie Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167351Posts: 104Members
    First off, I am absolutely for this change. I have played a few games with it (not enough to fully grasp the implications, but enough to have a sense), and I think it just feels great in the game; it promotes teamwork, and makes combat more interesting when marines are welding each other (which doesn't happen in pubs currently). I personally would just like to see a few things considered/tested before implementation in the game:

    - Advanced Armories heal armor (I am skeptical about this being a good idea, but I think it's worth testing)
    - Welders start researched (in the balance mod, merits consideration for being put in the game)
    - Welders costing less (perhaps 2 or 3 res?)
    - Some form of self welding, there was one suggestion that you are welded for x% of how much you weld someone (which may or may not be a good idea)
    Awesome people made this:
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  • IndustryIndustry Esteemed Gentleman Join Date: 2010-07-13 Member: 72344Posts: 698Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    tarquinbb wrote: »
    overall i'm against it, for the reasons stated in the other thread - but ultimately because you're telling the players how to play. i appreciate the benefits, but don't accept 'team play' as a benefit since you can already weld teammates right now. it is simply not the best option imo.

    if it's a matter of balance, i would much prefer interesting changes like adding old alien abilities metabolize or focus.

    You certainly can weld teammates currently, but why bother because armory.

    You can still simulate armor healing by dropping a MAC right next to an armory and it even has the benefit of being able to move with the marines. You don't necessarily have to hump welders. This change is really less about "forcing teamwork" and more about making alien hit and run tactics actually work, which is what their damage is balanced around.

    Focus isn't going to make things much better adding it without this change. Focus excelled in NS1 at finishing off wounded marines, we don't really have that anymore. Concerning metabolize, well it is just going to completely reset the engagement if there is an armory present, so once again no real change there. That isn't to say these two abilities don't have their positives, but in relation to the current state of the armory... they won't do much.
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  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,329Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    edited March 2013
    CrushaK wrote: »
    If you intend MACs to be used that way, there should be some mechanic that makes them less of a micromanagement pain that is easy to gank if left without care.

    its definitely something that would be nice to have in general (basic guard and patrol orders) and that special "GuardAndWeld" order for the mac. another important thing would be queued orders, but that all goes in the direction of improving the commander gameplay in general and im working on it already.

    * Fixed a layout issue in this post, that made it look like Sewlek was quoting himself, while it was Crushak being quoted. - Angelusz*

    Post edited by Angelusz on
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  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Posts: 1,597Members
    Definitely support this change for all the reasons above.
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  • JAMESEARLJONOSJAMESEARLJONOS Join Date: 2012-12-15 Member: 175155Posts: 194Members
    This change is badly needed as a nerf to forward armories. Main base restoring armor isn't a problem, but forward armories being near impossible to assault (against good marines) is a serious problem. If you have 1-2 good marines who are pushing from a forward armory with shotguns, you will not kill them while they are near the armory. Making people weld each other at least creates bigger gaps in marine attacking power for attacking the armory (person welding can't immediately shoot).

    The advanced armory compromise is a good one. I have no problem with advanced armories restoring armor because they're inherently going to be limited to the main base in most games. It prevents the forward armory from being ridiculous, while simultaneously not making the late game a chore.
    dragonmithSlyfox101NousWanderer
  • NammNamm Join Date: 2011-12-08 Member: 137116Posts: 406Members
    NS2 did one good thing in regard to Armories from NS1; you spawn with max ammo. Thus ending the spawn-and-hump-the-Armory routine. How annoying wasn't it to lose a Phase Gate (and sometimes entire games) just because some players were obsessed with leaving main with full ammo?

    NS2 also did one bad thing in regard to Armories from NS1, you know where I'm leaning at by now... Healing armor is just bad. It promotes erratic gameplay (running back and forth to the Armory all the time) and turtling, and it effectively pushes away teamplay. If anything, Armories shouldn't just lose the ability to heal armor, but health and ammo too. The Marines have a Comm, right?
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  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    edited March 2013
    I think it's an okay change but only if welders come down in cost.

    Additionally, I don't think TF is a worthy investment for macs alone, so you really need to look at buffing sentries again too. They're a joke in their current state. (They immediately become redundant once aliens have 2 hives and BB) Not forcing commanders to build them close to each other would be a start, as well as getting rid of the sentry battery in general.
    Post edited by Xarius on
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  • JAMESEARLJONOSJAMESEARLJONOS Join Date: 2012-12-15 Member: 175155Posts: 194Members
    edited March 2013
    Namm wrote: »
    If anything, Armories shouldn't just lose the ability to heal armor, but health and ammo too. The Marines have a Comm, right?

    No. Jesus. No. Holy christ, no.

    One of the worst parts of this game, and certainly the most frustrating in a pub is the arbitrary umbilical cord between marines and their comm. As it is, being a smart marine who plays aggressively is a massive PITA on most pubs due to the slowness of most commanders. Taking that up another step and making every single player heavily dependent on the comm for basic healing and ammo in your own base is perhaps the most horrifying thing I can ever imagine for this game. Mother of god - I disagreed with your post, and then undisagreed so I could disagree twice.


    Post edited by JAMESEARLJONOS on
    Faust
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Posts: 657Members
    Sewlek wrote: »
    im trying to follow your logic from the other thread, and this is something that immediately comes into my mind when you say "fake team play" (because of not being optional?)

    I used the term "fake teamwork" in a post on the original thread. I put the word fake in quotes to try to indicate that I don't really think it's fake teamwork, but to contrast it with other types of teamwork that I thought were more meaningful and better incorporated the important aspects of teamwork.

    To reiterate: welding is neither a difficult task nor a difficult decision, so working together as a team to decide to weld and execute the welding action is not (in my view) teamwork, it's just a group activity. Gameplay is about meaningful decisions and difficult tasks; everything else is mere activity, not gameplay.

    Other posters later made good points underscoring that welding encourages group cohesion which in turn encourages actual teamwork.
  • AngeluszAngelusz Harmonic entropist Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18072Posts: 2,598Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester mod
    I've said it before and will keep saying it- I love this change and it should be implemented in the public build A.S.A.P.

    It'll make fades more viable again and finally give marines a real reason to stick together. I absolutely loved the hell out of it when we tested in in the internal builds. Go Sewlek! ;)
    Formerly known as: iG`Praetorian
    NS2 EUPT Playtester
    Moderator; If there's anything I can help you with, feel free to send me a PM.
    IeptBarakatkingkrabbe.#bof
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