Discuss the Ping Advantage (crosspost from ENSL.org)

GoldenGolden Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31169Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Silver, NS2 Community Developer
in Competitive Play
Over the weekend, we saw the impact of the ping advantage, contributing to the numerous marine wins. Forcing marine rounds to have the advantage in intercontinental play is the wrong approach and needs to be discussed. In my opinion, playing with over 150 latency is unplayable as you begin warping through enemy players, attacks do not register, and you can be killed before the other player is visible on your screen.

The best solution I have come up with is to play the match on the server providing the lowest average ping difference. This avoids playing rounds on two different servers (decreasing the time required for matches to be played as well), and preventing one team from having a larger advantage than the other.

Ex.
A team comprised of mostly US West players is scheduled to play against a European team, mostly located in Germany. Under the current ruleset, the first round would be played on a US East server resulting in ~80-100 pings for the US team and ~130 for the German team, an average difference of 40. The second round would be played on a UK server with ~40-60 pings for the German team and ~180-200 for the US West team, a difference of 140. Clearly there is an imbalance here.

With my solution, both rounds would be played on the US East server since the ping difference is lowest. I believe this would result in the most even gameplay.

Discuss.

Crossposted from ENSL.org.
Off Topic Disagree 3Agree Awesome
«1

Comments

  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    I hear ANSL is looking for teams.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Two rounds on a server chosen by the US team, two rounds on a server chosen by the EU team. Alien/Marine rounds played on both servers (so you have the advantage twice, disadvantage twice). As for what servers are used in those matches, the team should be allowed to pick any server they want, however the other team needs to agree to it. Disputes should be handled by the refs. In that particular situation, i would say the teams could agree to play both on an east server for the best possible fairness.

    Out of curiosity, can some EU/West coast players try pinging to the NS2 servers at ns2cmod.com? You can go to the steam browser and click add server to see the servers and ping them (or just ping the address).
    Off Topic Disagree 2Agree Awesome
  • derWalterderWalter Join Date: 2008-10-29 Member: 65323Members
    well, ping over 50 was always and SHOULD be problematic!

    a good netcode wil be optimized for 100% accurate gameplay around 50ms.
    pll change town and isp for a reason :P


    but yeah, intercontinental... always a big problem :/ floating server in the middle? :)
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    marine comm needs low ping for medspam!
    Off Topic 1Disagree Agree Awesome
  • GlissGliss Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14800Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    aliens should get ping advantage, typically melee is affected more by pings than ranged hitscan marines

    interp could probably be fixed too

    US east servers are ideal for pings since it provides the lowest difference between teams. I don't see many teams agreeing to this though, not that I would expect them to.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • GoldenGolden Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31169Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    xDragon wrote: »
    Two rounds on a server chosen by the US team, two rounds on a server chosen by the EU team. Alien/Marine rounds played on both servers (so you have the advantage twice, disadvantage twice). As for what servers are used in those matches, the team should be allowed to pick any server they want, however the other team needs to agree to it. Disputes should be handled by the refs. In that particular situation, i would say the teams could agree to play both on an east server for the best possible fairness.

    Out of curiosity, can some EU/West coast players try pinging to the NS2 servers at ns2cmod.com? You can go to the steam browser and click add server to see the servers and ping them (or just ping the address).

    That's the other viable solution I have considered. However, this doubles the time needed for matches to be played and brings to question where the tiebreaker should be played.

    I cannot ping either server as they are not up at the moment.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited March 2013
    The euros, who form the majority of the NS2 competitive scene, will never agree to playing both rounds on NA servers. Even if it provides the smallest average ping difference, it is still unfair.

    I think the current style of USEAST (Virginia or NYC) for NA games and London/germany/france for euro games is the best compromise for cross continent matches. I also like the alien + marine -> switch -> alien + marine setup over the marine -> switch -> alien.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • WillzZzWillzZz Join Date: 2013-01-31 Member: 182667Members
    Let's just throw some servers up in the middle of the Atlantic.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • statikgstatikg Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
    edited March 2013
    A combination perhaps? Switch servers per map then lowest ping differential for tie breakers. I mean, that might just as well end up being a london server as a US east server depending on the teams locations.

    Gotta get some greenland servers ;p
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    playing either side always with the ping advantage is bad practice in the end, if affects both sides in different ways quite substainially. Also many of the disadvantages aliens face with high ping are just a pronounced when playing against high ping. I dont see why people would be opposed to playing the extra rounds in most cases, IIRC matches were generally played with 4 rounds in NS1.

    Also the servers are up and have been for a while, not sure why you cant ping them (could just ping ns2cmod.com in command prompt :X).
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • FlipperFlipper Join Date: 2012-08-08 Member: 155120Members
    The only absolute fair way to do it is to play 4 games instead of 2 and switch after a marine/alien combo.

    That or found the north american league...
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • unter_hosenunter_hosen Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11858Members, Constellation
    wonder if you can get a server in say.... Greenland. Seems most central for both :)
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    xDragon wrote: »
    Two rounds on a server chosen by the US team, two rounds on a server chosen by the EU team. Alien/Marine rounds played on both servers (so you have the advantage twice, disadvantage twice). As for what servers are used in those matches, the team should be allowed to pick any server they want, however the other team needs to agree to it. Disputes should be handled by the refs. In that particular situation, i would say the teams could agree to play both on an east server for the best possible fairness.

    Out of curiosity, can some EU/West coast players try pinging to the NS2 servers at ns2cmod.com? You can go to the steam browser and click add server to see the servers and ping them (or just ping the address).
    I agree with the 2+2 format, but what do you do in the case of tiebreakers? We had a three-way tie this weekend, so even the most improbably situations occur with annoying frequency.

    Also, I can't seem to ping your website. However, I pinged a few of the NSL servers to see what I get
    NSL Match - NA Central - #1 (IP: 69.39.239.30) = 59ms
    NSL Match - NA Central - #2 (IP: 69.162.110.234) = 52ms
    NSL Match - NA East - #1 (IP: 108.61.71.50) = 77ms
    NSL Match - London - #1 (IP: 85.236.100.56) = 165ms
    NSL Match - Frankfurt - #1 (IP: 85.236.105.23) = 183ms
    I'm US-West (Seattle) so that's probably the worst you'll see from NA players.

    Edit: Updated with NA Central #1 and #2 pings.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Derf yea you wont be able to ping the site, but you cant see the servers there? 76.72.172.196:27015 / 76.72.172.196:27017
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    More rounds are always better, but we're usually forced to cut them shorter (ie bo3 or simply 2 halves in RR format) for tournament's schedule. Obviously you could space them out over more weekends.

    There's always the win-2 in a row option, but that can go on for a very long time as well.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • GoldenGolden Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31169Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    Here are the results of my pinging via cmd.

    Dragon's servers (76.72.172.196) - 71 ms

    NSL Match - NA East - #1 (IP: 108.61.71.50) = 79 ms
    NSL Match - London - #1 (IP: 85.236.100.56) = 192 ms
    NSL Match - Frankfurt - #1 (IP: 85.236.105.23) = 217 ms

    From Arizona.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • GamerkatzeGamerkatze Join Date: 2012-06-27 Member: 153711Members
    edited March 2013
    Golden wrote: »
    Here are the results of my pinging via cmd.

    Dragon's servers (76.72.172.196) - 71 ms

    NSL Match - NA East - #1 (IP: 108.61.71.50) = 79 ms
    NSL Match - London - #1 (IP: 85.236.100.56) = 192 ms
    NSL Match - Frankfurt - #1 (IP: 85.236.105.23) = 217 ms

    From Arizona.

    NA East is located in NYC.
    out of interest could you also test NSL Central (chicago) ? 69.39.239.30:27715.
    and NSL Central #2 (texas) ? 69.162.110.234:27915

    always good to see how ping changes ;)
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • GoldenGolden Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31169Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    Gamerkatze wrote: »
    NA East is located in NYC.
    out of interest could you also test NSL Central (chicago) ? 69.39.239.30:27715.
    always good to see how ping changes ;)

    NSL Central (chicago) 69.39.239.30:27715 - 74 ms

    Damage Networks Private Central 69.39.239.34 - 74 ms
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I would be interested to see what some europeans ping to my server also - Routing can often be very fickle (you ping lower to my server on the east than chicago, thats quite suprising).
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • GamerkatzeGamerkatze Join Date: 2012-06-27 Member: 153711Members
    edited March 2013
    NSL Match - NA East - #1 (IP: 108.61.71.50) = 118
    NSL Match - London - #1 (IP: 85.236.100.56) = 36
    NSL Match - Frankfurt - #1 (IP: 85.236.105.23) = 21
    NSL Central (chicago) 69.39.239.30:27715 = 121
    NSL Central #2 (texas) 69.162.110.234:27915 = 144
    cant ping to @xDragon server :/
    and yes i double checked the NA results :D

    I live in West Germany (1 hour to Cologne and Frankfurt)
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    Or you could all pick a server in Asia that is x distance from the european team and also x distance from the American one such that both are playing with pings around 140.

    Warping? Don't worry - so is the other team.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree 1Awesome
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited March 2013
    From Buffalo (NE corner of US)
    NSL Match - NA East - #1 (IP: 108.61.71.50) = 15
    NSL Match - London - #1 (IP: 85.236.100.56) = 82
    NSL Match - Frankfurt - #1 (IP: 85.236.105.23) = 98
    NSL Central (chicago) 69.39.239.30 = 36
    NSL Central #2 (texas) 69.162.110.234 = 53
    Dragon's (Philadelphia?) 76.72.172.196 = 17

    (actual pings in game are typically +15-30 from what is listed here)
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    xDragon wrote: »
    Derf yea you wont be able to ping the site, but you cant see the servers there? 76.72.172.196:27015 / 76.72.172.196:27017
    Still getting a timeout when trying to ping your server IP directly. Looking at the tracert, it seems to be getting stuck at an IP in Philadelphia.
    Gamerkatze wrote: »
    NA East is located in NYC.
    out of interest could you also test NSL Central (chicago) ? 69.39.239.30:27715.
    and NSL Central #2 (texas) ? 69.162.110.234:27915

    always good to see how ping changes ;)
    Added pings to the NSL Central servers to my list.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    Bleh i just enabled pinging it for the time being, easier, you should be able to ping it now.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    xDragon wrote: »
    Bleh i just enabled pinging it for the time being, easier, you should be able to ping it now.
    Working now. I get a ping of 79ms.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • GamerkatzeGamerkatze Join Date: 2012-06-27 Member: 153711Members
    edited March 2013
    jop dragon server = 100 ms for me
    but my internet connection shouldnt be representing the majority of eu players ^^
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Is your server in Pennsylvania, Dragon?
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Technically, it is.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited March 2013
    myself hurr wrote:
    The fairest way to do cross-continental play is as follows:

    (1) Teams play either two maps or four maps.
    (2) Each team picks one or two home maps, depending on the format chosen in (1).
    (3) Teams play their home map on their home server. Every effort should be made to pick each server so as to minimize the ping difference, however.
    (4) If the teams are tied after the selected maps have been played, a tie breaker round should be played, with the winner of a cointoss deciding EITHER the server OR the map and side. The loser of the cointoss decides the remaining option.
    We already had this discussion during the beta, and there isn't any better way than this to do it. No idea why that particular lesson was forgotten before the invitational qualifiers, though. This tie breaker rule still isn't entirely fair, but it's the closest we'll get.

    jiriki wrote:
    But best idea is to avoid most intercontinental FPS play.
    Off Topic Disagree 1Agree Awesome
  • YoungTrotskyYoungTrotsky Join Date: 2007-03-09 Member: 60307Members
    This will probably get shouted down immediately but I'd be interested to see what people thought seeing as it doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet:

    What about you find the server that has the lowest highest ping (think that makes sense) and then everyone else uses the net_lag command to increase their ping to that level?

    Flame on!
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
Sign In or Register to comment.