Remove Carapace in it's current incarnation

rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Posts: 1,410Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, Community Dev Team
edited April 2012 in Ideas and Suggestions
Something that was said in one of the 205 feedback threads prompted me to say this, and it's something that's been discussed before.

Carapace is something that makes the game a little boring when you look at your upgrade choice as aliens. Armor is so ungodly good in this game that you'd be stupid not to get Carapace first every single game. Even the 20 extra armor for a skulk is gonna yield 40% more survivability against 0/0 LMG (10 bullets up to 14 bullets). That is SO huge. The importance for higher lifeforms is even greater.

Am I the only one who'd like to see carapace removed and implemented back into the game in some other form? I think chamber upgrades should be playstyle modifiers, not static survivability upgrades. No other chamber upgrade in the game currently works like carapace (a static survivability increase). It's no wonder it's just a no brainer staple opener in like 90%+ serious games. The only reason you wouldn't get it is if you think your strategy/team was competent enough to have a second hive up/going up around the time fades start appearing. Crag hive is just too dominating, umbra/crags are also by far the best support structure.it takes away a lot of freedom strategy/choice wise for early game aliens.



Suggestion: Remove Carapace from the Crag chamber upgrades, make it a researchable upgrade from the hive perhaps. Or just straight up get rid of it. Or increase alien armor for the # of hives you have (that may not be a very elegant solution)? You would also have to come up with something new to replace the upgrade on the crag chamber.

I think I also read somewhere that Carapace was going to slow down your movement speed. I really don't like mechanics like that, if an upgrade is too powerful you should adjust it, not tack on impairing (and un-fun) disadvantages. You don't see anything like that in SC2 (aside from marine stim I guess).
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    Not removed, but redesigned maybe. I agree it's too much of a nobrainer over regeneration, silence, camouflage currently.
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  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Posts: 1,014Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    I take regeneration as a lerk instead of carapace, and sometimes as onos too if we only have one hive.
  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Posts: 1,301Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    Just wait for the Shift and celerity and we will see how important Carpace first will be.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • TheIcarusKidTheIcarusKid Join Date: 2012-03-23 Member: 149258Posts: 121Members
    I've been meaning to make a post like this for a while. Obviously carapace shouldn't be removed, but we'll need to tweak things in the final version so that it isn't an absolute requirement.

    These kinds of problems can generally be fixed by tweaking the numbers. I'm kind of sad that I missed the versions where carapace slowed you down... would have been interesting to see how that affected gameplay.
  • RyneRyne Join Date: 2012-02-25 Member: 147408Posts: 443Members, NS2 Map Tester
    QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 23 2012, 10:50 AM) »
    I take regeneration as a lerk instead of carapace, and sometimes as onos too if we only have one hive.


    Not in B205. In b205, you take carapace as lerk. Then if you ever get hurt, you just switch to regen, heal, and switch about to carapace.
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  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Posts: 1,301Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Ryne @ Apr 23 2012, 09:42 PM) »
    Not in B205. In b205, you take carapace as lerk. Then if you ever get hurt, you just switch to regen, heal, and switch about to carapace.


    What? How to deevolve? Omg I missed smth?! Lol
    image
  • RyneRyne Join Date: 2012-02-25 Member: 147408Posts: 443Members, NS2 Map Tester
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 23 2012, 12:56 PM) »
    What? How to deevolve? Omg I missed smth?! Lol

    Hit B, -click your current evolution (the one within the big circle), select new one, hit okay.

    rinse and repeat to get carapace back :P
    Ryne aka R-W-Ryne (twitch)

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  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Posts: 1,803Members
    Its not carapace, its the other options for upgrades.

    NS1 was exactly the same. In the early days DC was the only option. Players would be instantly kicked for dropping anything else. However, as the game matured and more patches and balances were released, the first hive choices became more even(ish).

    Don't get me wrong, it will never be completely even between the upgrades. Of the choices, additional armour benefits the most play styles, and will always be the first choice of less experienced players. Its the more generally applicable choice of the 3, which isn't to say its the wrong choice, in many occasions its the correct choice, but in nearly all situations its the easier choice.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    I support Carapace's current balance with regard to Regen. I do not, however, support its balance relative to Silence and Camo. Buff SC plz.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • Champlo0Champlo0 Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Posts: 465Members
    When the hit reg actually gets fixed silence will be alot better in higher skilled games because aliens will be able to completely ambush marines and the amount of extra armor will be effectively be weaker than survivability compared to carapace because marines won't have a chance to actually shoot as much. In my personal opinion, silence is an overall better evolution because of its increased ambush abilities which are one of the strongest parts of alien play.

    In response to the idea of adding consequences to alien evolutions I don't believe that is a good idea. The consequence of evolving with a certain evolution should be in the forgoing of other evolutions, not a direct penalty.
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  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Posts: 543Members
    Rant I see your point but also I would like to bring up this other important factor....

    Shift is not currently in the game. In NS1 it was extremely rare to ever see your team drop a DC first.... as celerity was much more important for early game skulks. Even with carapace skulks are largely a kamakazee class... so having a lot of armor just slows the inevitable.

    I mean some of us KDR worshippers will run back to base with our skulks :-P but in reality it doesn't do anything but help your KDR.

    Once shift is in I think we might be seeing carapace as a 2nd upgrade. Also I am not sure why more people don't use silence as their first upgrade. It's more deadly than cloak in my opinion and is amazing for ambushing marines.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Posts: 1,410Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, Community Dev Team
    QUOTE (.ADHd @ Apr 23 2012, 04:50 PM) »
    Rant I see your point but also I would like to bring up this other important factor....

    Shift is not currently in the game. In NS1 it was extremely rare to ever see your team drop a DC first.... as celerity was much more important for early game skulks. Even with carapace skulks are largely a kamakazee class... so having a lot of armor just slows the inevitable.

    I mean some of us KDR worshippers will run back to base with our skulks :-P but in reality it doesn't do anything but help your KDR.

    Once shift is in I think we might be seeing carapace as a 2nd upgrade. Also I am not sure why more people don't use silence as their first upgrade. It's more deadly than cloak in my opinion and is amazing for ambushing marines.


    That can be quite true, but I don't see it as a chance to pad KDR as a skulk, skulks are quite frail and being able to take 40% more punishment greatly increases your chances of success, especially against smart marines that play in pairs. Carapace is also such a globally rewarding upgrade to take, because not only does it immensely help skulks, but it's very important to have in order to keep your higher lifeforms alive and on the field while things like shade/shift upgrades, while good, they IMO don't provide the same level of benefit to the higher lifeforms. I view taking the Crag Hive route as insurance for fade/onos dominance while still being extremely good for skulk. Any with such a low emphasis on multiple hives in the game ATM, I have a hard time seeing anything being equally viable as crag hive.

    Or I guess another way of saying it is: I think all of the chamber upgrades are relatively balanced and equally rewarding to skulks, but the higher the lifeform, the more un-equal the benefits become. Especially fades and onos - lerk is debatable (although imo carapace is still top choice for him too).
    image
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Ryne @ Apr 23 2012, 02:42 PM) »
    Not in B205. In b205, you take carapace as lerk. Then if you ever get hurt, you just switch to regen, heal, and switch about to carapace.


    This should be flagged as an exploit imo

    Also camouflage is much better than shift for ambushes IMO.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    What we need to see is infestation hive sight completely wiped and replaced with something only accessible via SC. That way you have to choose between being good at fighting or being good at intel.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Posts: 1,457Members, NS2 Map Tester
    QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 23 2012, 08:20 PM) »
    This should be flagged as an exploit imo

    Also camouflage is much better than shift for ambushes IMO.


    It isn't an exploit. It takes 5-6 seconds to switch between the two, but it is clearly intended for you to be able to swap out upgrades.
    image
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 23 2012, 11:40 PM) »
    What we need to see is infestation hive sight completely wiped and replaced with something only accessible via SC. That way you have to choose between being good at fighting or being good at intel.


    Yes, but it seems like UWE is completely ignoring the community pleas to remove hive sight? I know very few people who want to keep it in, and if they do they want it to be at least a tech option. The current version is just plain overpowered.
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  • SolitarioSolitario Join Date: 2006-10-29 Member: 58097Posts: 245Members
    edited April 2012
    I personally get Carapace 100% before the others.

    I'd love to remove that Upgrade and see Aliens Armor/Carapace get improved
    by every Hive they build. That it scales up to lategame, where marines get attack/armor upgrades
    themselves and skulks getting demolished.

    this also could end turtling games, where alines have 4 hives, and marines only their base but 1000 sentries and all upgrades
    and aliens can't finish it
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 24 2012, 05:11 AM) »
    Yes, but it seems like UWE is completely ignoring the community pleas to remove hive sight? I know very few people who want to keep it in, and if they do they want it to be at least a tech option. The current version is just plain overpowered.

    A lot of things "seem" to be but aren't. Just because they haven't gotten a patch out quick enough for your tastes doesn't mean they aren't well aware of the problem and working diligently on it.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • Champlo0Champlo0 Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Posts: 465Members
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 24 2012, 07:15 AM) »
    A lot of things "seem" to be but aren't. Just because they haven't gotten a patch out quick enough for your tastes doesn't mean they aren't well aware of the problem and working diligently on it.

    Even though people have been complaining about it since it was added and it would be as simple to remove it.
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  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Apr 24 2012, 01:26 PM) »
    Even though people have been complaining about it since it was added and it would be as simple to remove it.

    Go remove it then. Take it out, design a system to replace it, implement it, balance it, playtest it repeatedly, tweak it for feedback, submit it to UWE, and package it as a mod in the mean time.

    Do that and you can complain about it not being in all you want. In the mean time, you've got no excuse if it's so frusturatingly easy.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • Champlo0Champlo0 Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Posts: 465Members
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 24 2012, 11:30 AM) »
    Go remove it then. Take it out, design a system to replace it, implement it, balance it, playtest it repeatedly, tweak it for feedback, submit it to UWE, and package it as a mod in the mean time.

    Do that and you can complain about it not being in all you want. In the mean time, you've got no excuse if it's so frusturatingly easy.

    The vision had no place in the gameplay. It has no skill factor and is constant until you destroy the cysts around it. It adds nothing to alien gameplay aside from making their lives easier without any skill or input on their part. It already slows marines and has further plans for additions to buff aliens. Just get rid of it and replace it with a structure that functions like an observatory without a beacon for aliens. I don't need to playtest something that is so mind numbingly simple to implement and clearly better than the current system. The devs have no excuse when something is so frustratingly easy to change.
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  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    edited April 2012
    They have the excuse that they're the developers. They can do what they want in what order they want; we're only here as a treat (and to help test). If it's frustratingly easy to change, go make a community mod for it. If it's as obvious a move as you say, everyone will love it, everyone will wind up using it, and UWE will see it and implement it into the game.

    In the mean time, sitting back in your armchair griping about how easy it would be to fix something, while UWE hunch over in their armchairs working hard on optimizing and improving every aspect of the game (in-between fan events, coffee breaks, and general office shenanigans), is hypocritical at best.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    QUOTE
    A lot of things "seem" to be but aren't. Just because they haven't gotten a patch out quick enough for your tastes doesn't mean they aren't well aware of the problem and working diligently on it.
    I'm not bashing UWE mind you, just saying it would great if they could let us know what they're planning in regards to 'hot issues' like alien hive sight. Just a simple 'we know and we plan on reworking it' would be enough. I'm sure they've seen the many threads on this subject by now.
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  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 24 2012, 04:54 PM) »
    I'm not bashing UWE mind you, just saying it would great if they could let us know what they're planning in regards to 'hot issues' like alien hive sight. Just a simple 'we know and we plan on reworking it' would be enough. I'm sure they've seen the many threads on this subject by now.

    Yeah, it's always nice to be reassured that the developers are working on/care about issues that we care about. Unfortunately, there's a whole lot of issues like that out there. UWE already spend so much time staying in contact with their community, but I wonder if in a way that has just set the bar even higher for the amount of attention we expect from them.

    At the end of the day, the patch notes are UWE's responses to our complaints. If only it were easier to tell the difference between "haven't gotten it completed yet" and "don't really think it's an issue". Drifter 2.0 has been all over the progress tracker though, so we know they're working hard at reforming hive sight and the building system.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

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