Air control

KoruyoKoruyo Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Posts: 1,676Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
Im confused
Im not sure anymore what the meaning of aircontrol exactly is, but fact is, im not happy with the current implementation... (or at least how it behaves on the skulk)
But thats only me...


image
the green arrow is the skulk showing in which direction he is looking, first orang circle is jump start, second is jump end, red is the jump path.


a, b, c - is how a skulk can jump currently.
You can change the direction and point of landing at anytime, depending on where you look in midair.

d, e, f - is how i think it would be better.
Its only really important where you look at starting a jump - rotating in mid-air would only slightly change the path - if at all.


d, e, f would make walljumping a lot easier and also allow you to rotate and track enemys while in the air. (currently you have to look at the wall until you land to not change direction in midair accidentaly)
e.g. picture d, you want to wall jump - now you can start your jump and already start to turn your body in midair without changing the jump path... so you land in the perfect position to make the followup jump or whatever...
Post edited by Unknown User on
www.teamarchaea.com - arc | Koruyo - Founder, Member, Constructor, Protector and Destroyer of RTs and other stuff - inactive

Comments

  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Posts: 1,301Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    So i am actaully trying then new skulk out in this build, and I encountered that that what you want is already implemented.

    a,b,c works if you press W

    e,f,g works if you don't press W

    image
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,868Members, Squad Five Blue
    Disagree, I think skulks should be able to change direction in midair, like your first 3 examples.
    However, I don't like the current implementation on the skulk, the air control was alot better in 198.
    As for the fade, he is currently missing air control after coming out of blink, and using his momentum.
    He currently can't change is direction after coming out of blink, and it makes the current blink very limiting.
    Here is a video showing Yuuki's fade momentum mod vs the vanilla blink air control:

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Posts: 4,599Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Holding W is what gives you full air control, letting go allows you to pivot if you want. I think there's no question it's more useful than before, but it does feel super unrealistic even by NS standards. You actually have better control in the air than on the ground - doing a 180 in mid-air rockets you instantly in the opposite direction, where on the ground it takes a second to reverse your momentum. Makes for some very good bullet dodging but I can only imagine how it looks to the marine.
  • OhnojojoOhnojojo Join Date: 2011-08-01 Member: 113400Posts: 364Members
    edited March 2012
    I'd like to see the current wall jumping implementation reduce the degree in which you can turn while in mid-air.
    From what I hear, being able to do a full 180 in mid air looks aesthetically silly.

    I do think this current implementation adds a much higher skilled-based movement cap and I think most people are whining (as expected) with a huge change like this.

    My only concern is changing the ability for skulks to do mid air 180 turns. maybe allow them to turn in the air as much as 90 degrees from the original direction faced when jumping.

    OR give skulks mini-wings a la zergling speed in SC2. But I'd prefer not to see that..



    Otherwise I think everyone just needs to get used to the current implementation and stop whining. Everyone whined when the previous wall jump was implemented, everyone whined as the fade blink concept was being shelled out.

    Whining has its place in reflecting community concerns or critiquing ideas, concepts and implementations but most of the posts I've seen so far, regarding the new skulk wall jump, sounds like this:
    I've gotten so pro at walljump. Now I need to relearn something! BOO THIS SUCKS. Here's a video of how pro I was!!

    This thread is helpful and informative and has cleared up some misconceptions about air control and offered constructive suggestions for improvements. We need more threads and posts like these. Less whining, more constructive feedback.

    UWE, swalk, floodinator zek <3

    edit:
    tl:dr I'm not opposed to improvements, the current, new wal jump implementation isn't that great but things like this are expected in a beta. Less whining, more constructive criticism. Less use of highly exaggerated, negatively incredulous language, aka Skie's post.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Posts: 855Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I don't think it's been described that well - a, b and c are the extreme manifestations of POV-movement whereas e, f and g are moderate implementations of POV-movement combined with inertia (the extreme manifestation of inertia would be where your destination is determined from the jump and POV has no bearing whatsoever during the movement).

    In reality, both are important. You want to be able to move your point-of-view but still retain momentum in whatever direction you were going in but you also want your point-of-view to determine the destination. On the one hand, an infinitely sharp 180degree turn could simply illicit a change in POV where destination is unchanged. On the other, a slow 180degree turn might arc the skulk considerably and affect final destination. This is all evident in the NS1 skulk if people are unsure what I mean.

    It's more of a question of "to what extent" than "A or B".
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (Ohnojojo @ Mar 1 2012, 03:57 PM) »
    Otherwise I think everyone just needs to get used to the current implementation and stop whining. Everyone whined when the previous wall jump was implemented, everyone whined as the fade blink concept was being shelled out.

    Whining has its place in reflecting community concerns or critiquing ideas, concepts and implementations but most of the posts I've seen so far, regarding the new skulk wall jump, sounds like this:
    I've gotten so pro at walljump. Now I need to relearn something! BOO THIS SUCKS. Here's a video of how pro I was!!

    This thread is helpful and informative and has cleared up some misconceptions about air control and offered constructive suggestions for improvements. We need more threads and posts like these. Less whining, more constructive feedback.

    UWE, swalk, floodinator zek <3


    ^THIS! Absolutely my opinion. Maybe the new patch is really not that good. But one thing is for sure. You can't tell after not even 24h. So stop QQ and get into training with the new mechanic and than come back to the forums.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • KoruyoKoruyo Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Posts: 1,676Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2012
    Guess you are not allowed to question something about ns in the ns2 community anymore - since everything you say is classified as whining...

    Releasing the W key while making forward movement is very unintuitive, but you can get used to it i guess...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    www.teamarchaea.com - arc | Koruyo - Founder, Member, Constructor, Protector and Destroyer of RTs and other stuff - inactive
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    About the fade air control in my mod, I tried to do like in ns1, but if I remember correctly there is no air control in ns1 when you don't strafe. In the fade mod strafing helps the air control but you still have some even if you don't strafe.

    For the skulk it would be better to link air control to strafe instead of forward, it make much more sense and would allow for both situations depicted by Koruyo: when I want to go straight I press W and if I want to turn I press A or D while looking where I want to go.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Mar 1 2012, 04:16 PM) »
    Guess you are not allowed to question something in the ns2 community anymore - since everything you say is classified as whining...


    Not at all. But the hubris to think, that you can tell if something is good or not after not even 24h is simply wrong.
  • KoruyoKoruyo Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Posts: 1,676Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2012
    Just that at least i didnt say anything about it being good or bad... only that i am unhappy with it - seeking opinions of other ppl, what they like better and why...

    So we can have a nice discussion.

    PS: Are we not allowed to discuss first impressions? I didnt claim i am correct, or that i speak for more than me... its just a single personal opinion.
    If i bite into an apple, and it tastes rotten to me, do i have to eat the whole to be allowed to say "i think its rotten, what do you guys think"?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    www.teamarchaea.com - arc | Koruyo - Founder, Member, Constructor, Protector and Destroyer of RTs and other stuff - inactive
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,868Members, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 1 2012, 04:03 PM) »
    ^THIS! Absolutely my opinion. Maybe the new patch is really not that good. But one thing is for sure. You can't tell after not even 24h. So stop QQ and get into training with the new mechanic and than come back to the forums.

    Well the point is there is not much training to do, you simply can't do much with the new mechanic.
    The new mechanic is either very unreliable, or I simply can't find out how it works.
    Whenever I jump off a wall, I time my jump with the skulkspeedmeter = true (skulk_client.lua).
    The speed I get from jumping off the wall with a well timed jump is very inconsistent.
    However, I can gain 9.5~ speed(7 is normal skulk wallspeed) from jumping on the floor and spamming A, D(midair wigglewalk?).
    Strafing in midair feels very unnatural and wonky.
    It's not like we're coming here not having tried the new mechanic.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 1 2012, 04:37 PM) »
    It's not like we're coming here not having tried the new mechanic.


    Thats not what I mentioned. I just say, try it out a longer time. Maybe you find some new tricks.
    A game is not an apple. You can't judge it from a few hours playtime. Remember when you first played NS2. I bet you had an opinion over some things, that just wasn't true and you discovered that later.
  • OhnojojoOhnojojo Join Date: 2011-08-01 Member: 113400Posts: 364Members
    edited March 2012
    I think we're getting side-tracked. My original post was merely suggesting that I'm tired of hearing nonconstructive whining and pitches for things that won't happen like bunny hopping. It was a slightly jaded response to Skie's post "Return build 198 Skulk Movement".
    The post reads very childish to me and the language he uses sounded to me incredibly ungrateful, unwarranted and exaggerated.
    While he does bring up good points about the general consensus that the new implementation of skulk movement is a step backwards (which I agree with aswell) the way he expressed himself denigrates the tireless hours that UWE puts into this beta to create a quality product.
    I feel that some people in the community forget that we're in a very unique position in game development, where the community can contribute, suggest and be involved in the development process. The UWE team actually read these forums and posts.

    That being said, for everybody's benefit constructive criticism benefits the UWE team by offering them a pool of ideas and a boost in morale that they so deserve.


    So yes, I think nearly all of us can agree that the new skulk movement is bad. Now how can we improve it?

    Should we get rid of it completely? Could it be used as an upgradeable ability? (attached to leap) Can certain lines of code from the new movement system enhance B198's movement system. Could this movement system or parts of it be applied to the Lerk or Fade or Onos? Why is the new movement system bad? What capabilities does it allow? What limitations does it have?

    I'd rather sees these kinds of questions asked and answered rather than...
    me no like dis, boo, bunny hop, yay, i was pro, now i not.


    once again, this doesn't apply to those that are being constructive and whining with good reason and not flaunting their e-penis. Though I know its impossible to stop haters from hating things they hate.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Posts: 1,014Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    I dislike that you can totally stop your forward momentum and even have a slight backwards movement, all while in the air during a single jump. It doesn't make sense. The air friction is WAY too high.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,868Members, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 1 2012, 04:45 PM) »
    Thats not what I mentioned. I just say, try it out a longer time. Maybe you find some new tricks.
    A game is not an apple. You can't judge it from a few hours playtime. Remember when you first played NS2. I bet you had an opinion over some things, that just wasn't true and you discovered that later.

    I play the game almost every day, it didn't take me very long to discover the limitations of the current mechanic compared to the old one.
    The old mechanic was lacking something the new mechanic has though.
    The new walljump mechanic sends skulks in their view direction, that's something the old one was missing.
    But preserving speed is impossible with the new mechanic, you can only get a consistent boost by spamming sidestep keys, or get inconsistent onetime boost from jumping off a wall.
    And you probably won't make it to the opposite wall in the hallway with the new walljump mechanic. It was hard, but possible, with the old one.
    So the new mechanic makes skulks a bit faster when jumping on the ground, spamming his strafe keys, but makes him alot slower at everything else.
    The old mechanic worked better, and had more depth, as you can see in Skie's video.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
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