Hydra Adjustment

theDarkFoxtheDarkFox Join Date: 2011-10-21 Member: 128564Posts: 5Members
Have "Roots" and "Stalks"
Some of this might not be necessary when the upgrade trees for both sides are finished, but stay with me.

Nothing is worse as gorge than having your pretty hydra garden rocked by some random nades. (Its not much more fun when its an ARC, but that's what an ARC does.). It makes it hard to build up a viable defense, especially at 10 pres a pop. At the same time, if hydras were too robust, they end up being over powered; there still needs to be a way for marines to break through a hydra-secured area.

So, how can hydras be made a better pres investment, while still allowing marines to push through a defended area?

I'm proposing the Hydra be separated into two parts: a "Root" and "Stalks". The stalks shoot the projectiles, and the roots spawn the stalks.

The stalks would be like the hydras are now, anything kills them.
The root would only be vulnerable to ARC, Flamethrowers, Axes, and lack of infestation. (Or at least heavily resistant to any damage that isn't from those sources.)

So, I'm a gorge, and my gorgefort is getting nade spammed. When those grenades explode, they take out the stalks of my hydras, rendering them unable to fire. If the marines are actually pushing, they'll be able to walk through the area safely, since the hydra's offensive abilities are disabled. If the marines want to hold the area, taking out the cysts will cause the roots to die fairly quickly. Flamers and ARCs could also be used to take them out and drive me from the area. And in early game, the roots could just be axed.

But, if the marines are just lobbing grenades/bullets into an area, once the damage stops, the still-existing "roots" will begin to grow new stalks. This would make a failed/halted marine push much less costly for the aliens.

The idea would be to reward the marines for securing an area, or at least pushing back the infestation long enough for structures to die, while reducing the effectiveness of failed attacks.

What do people think?
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Comments

  • RichardRahlRichardRahl Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104594Posts: 299Members
    No, Hydra's are deterrent for sneaky marines and slowing down pushes, games are already hours long without the need to make hydra defense more beefy. NS does not need more emphasis on static defense there's already enough of it.
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  • jergodzjergodz Join Date: 2011-05-20 Member: 99745Posts: 70Members
    Not a bad idea, I always thought hydras should grow back once destroyed aslong as there is infestation to support its corpse. That or their cost should go down...
  • SmasherSmasher Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 43732Posts: 268Members
    edited October 2011
    I think it's a well thought-out suggestion, I like it +1

    QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Oct 21 2011, 06:56 AM) »
    games are already hours long without the need to make hydra defense more beefy.
    It's really easy breaking hydra/crag/whip/whatever farm as marines with GL, ARC and FTs.. or just with the rifle=P

    QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Oct 21 2011, 06:56 AM) »
    NS does not need more emphasis on static defense there's already enough of it.

    Sure, on the marine side..
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  • RichardRahlRichardRahl Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104594Posts: 299Members
    QUOTE (Smasher @ Oct 21 2011, 09:53 AM) »
    I think it's a well thought-out suggestion, I like it +1

    It's really easy breaking hydra/crag/whip/whatever farm as marines with GL, ARC and FTs.. or just with the rifle=P


    Sure, on the marine side..


    Theres just as much of it on Alien side, and with what he wants to do breaking hydra/crag/whip/whatever farm, will be stupid hard, did you even read the suggestion? What his suggestion boils down to is if you want to take out an entrenched alien position you need arcs, gls and then people to charge in and destroy the roots while under attack by aliens otherwise they hydras will grow back by themselves.
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  • BroseidonBroseidon Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110935Posts: 122Members
    I have been thinking about this aswell. Thought I think lowering the P-res cost might help. But that makes them OP early game. Maybe an upgrade that lowers the P-res cost for the hydras would work?
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  • TwiggehTwiggeh Join Date: 2010-09-24 Member: 74165Posts: 508Members
    Actually, if UWE lets whips whack grenades then you could just put 3-4 hydras in a circle around the whip.
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  • jergodzjergodz Join Date: 2011-05-20 Member: 99745Posts: 70Members
    Even then, it's 40 res better spend on a fade.. Since hydras keep their 20 dmg per shot whilst marines will have 3 times more armor late game.
  • SmasherSmasher Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 43732Posts: 268Members
    QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Oct 21 2011, 10:50 AM) »
    Theres just as much of it on Alien side, and with what he wants to do breaking hydra/crag/whip/whatever farm, will be stupid hard, did you even read the suggestion? What his suggestion boils down to is if you want to take out an entrenched alien position you need arcs, gls and then people to charge in and destroy the roots while under attack by aliens otherwise they hydras will grow back by themselves.

    Marines have it a lot easier breaking an alien defense than aliens have breaking a marine defense, though the whip-GL baseball concept might help even it out a little.

    Also, the hydras dont have to grow up instantly.. a 1 minute grow time (where they'll be able to be "killed" again while building) or something, I'm sure there's a way to balance it properly.
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  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    I like this idea quite a bit.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • Egad!Egad! Join Date: 2011-10-19 Member: 128250Posts: 143Members
    Yeah, just having people come in and destroy hydras, but nothing else, seems pretty annoying. With the root idea, it would make marines at least come in and finish the job,

    QUOTE
    No, Hydra's are deterrent for sneaky marines and slowing down pushes, games are already hours long without the need to make hydra defense more beefy. NS does not need more emphasis on static defense there's already enough of it.


    With this idea, it is absolutely no more difficult to take out hydras. All it means is that you have to actually commit to taking an area, rather than just have one lone marine take out all your defenses from afar, then run off. You can still use LMG or grenades to kill hydras, but in addition you must head inside the alien-held room and quickly clear out roots. Any decent push will still be able to easily destroy hydra defenses.

    However, I do believe that the roots should have really low hp, and they should take 2-4 minutes to grow back. That way, it only takes a swipe or two of an axe to kill them. Otherwise, that would make hydras much harder to kill.
  • theDarkFoxtheDarkFox Join Date: 2011-10-21 Member: 128564Posts: 5Members
    QUOTE ('Smasher')
    Also, the hydras dont have to grow up instantly.. a 1 minute grow time (where they'll be able to be "killed" again while building) or something, I'm sure there's a way to balance it properly.


    Exactly. I figure the gorge drops the Root, and it takes as long to grow the stalks as it does for a hydra to build now. The Root would also enter a "hibernation" once the stalks are destroyed. So say maybe a minute to regrow stalks, and the root has to remain undamaged for, say, 15 seconds before it will start to regrow; healspray/active gorging could reduce these times. This would allow a GL to be used to suppress an area the marines are planning to take while other marines/an ARC is getting in position.

    The stalks also give some options about regrow rates. Maybe after the damage "cool down" the hydra only regrows one stalk every 45 seconds or so.(does only 1/3 damage, or 3x the fire delay, and the "stalk" only has 1/3 the hp/armor)

    QUOTE ('Egad!')
    That way, it only takes a swipe or two of an axe to kill them. Otherwise, that would make hydras much harder to kill.


    The roots would naturally be very vulnerable to axes/flamers/arcs in exchange for their invulnerability to GLs/bullets. I figure maybe 3 axe swipes would take out a root. And something like 1 arc hit to take out the stalks, one arc hit to get the root. (I also think the stalks should be very vulnerable to axes... it makes sense). I think flamers should also be able to damage a root independent of the stalks, which would make destroying a hydrawall much easier.

    I'm not sure about how long they should be able to live outside the infestation (other than "not long") because I've never really timed how long a hydra can currently live. A root+stalk should last as long as a hydra. But a root with its stalks destroyed... maybe 1/4th the time of a hydra or less. Long enough for a gorge to drop an "Oh SHI-" minicyst, but just barely.


    QUOTE (RichardRahl)
    No, Hydra's are deterrent for sneaky marines and slowing down pushes, games are already hours long without the need to make hydra defense more beefy. NS does not need more emphasis on static defense there's already enough of it.
    ...
    Theres just as much of it on Alien side, and with what he wants to do breaking hydra/crag/whip/whatever farm, will be stupid hard, did you even read the suggestion? What his suggestion boils down to is if you want to take out an entrenched alien position you need arcs, gls and then people to charge in and destroy the roots while under attack by aliens otherwise they hydras will grow back by themselves.


    Did YOU read my suggestion?

    This would actually speed up the game if the aliens are winning. This would take the bite out of a lot of abortive marine rushes/Armory Drop+GL Spam, so there's not as much see-sawing if the marines are turtling. And if the marines get a good breakout rush going (shotty a hive or whatever), they can kill the stalks and just leave the roots, blowing past the secured area. (Or kill the cysts so the roots die while they move on)

    If the marines are winning... park an ARC outside the fort. ARCs would still be able to kill any buildings, including roots (I'm envisioning an ARC taking out both the Stalk+Root in the same time it takes to take down a hydra). Send in a flamer to burn out the roots. Or just nade the cysts.

    Marines wouldn't need full upgrades to take down a farm either. LMG/pistol the stalks, then move in and axe the roots. Or take out the Cysts. If the marines are rushing to a strategic area, they could also just kill the stalks and then run past. (Maybe make the roots vunerable to pistols/LMG to a degree; it is possible to drop hydras where they couldn't be axed and it would be hard to just bypass, IE: Datacore Rafters, and that could unbalance them in early game. Maybe make something like "hardened roots" a research item, or maybe only vulnerable to the pistol's alt-fire)

    GLs would still be still be able to take out Craigs/Whips/Shades/Cysts, so its not like even a failed rush wouldn't do any damage. It just prevents someone from needing to regorge and spend time/res to put hydras back an area the marines failed to take.

    You can also still use GLs to take down a hydra fort. Blow away the stalks with a Nade or three, then kill the cyst(s), problem solved.

    The goal isn't to make unassailable alien static defenses. Its to make Hydras a better res investment (without a HP/armor upgrade), while reducing the effectiveness of GL spam/rambos.
    It also allows the marines to neutralize a position to get by it without needing to destroy everything.


  • azimaithazimaith Join Date: 2011-07-03 Member: 107686Posts: 229Members
    If you want to make them like their namesake hydras they should grow more heads when they get cut down. :)

    Seriously though, I like the idea of roots and stalks for hydras, two different methods of doing the same thing, marines have repair, aliens would have regrowth. It addresses a serious problem and stays with the character.
  • UlmontUlmont Join Date: 2011-10-02 Member: 125211Posts: 114Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    I love this idea, it just sounds incredibly fun (and also potentially annoying, which can be good). It'd be interesting if they roots slowly grew over time, and spawned additional hydras.
  • Egad!Egad! Join Date: 2011-10-19 Member: 128250Posts: 143Members
    QUOTE
    It'd be interesting if they roots slowly grew over time, and spawned additional hydras.


    Nice suggestion Ulmont. However, I think there should be some restriction on the spawning of additional hydras -- like maybe it takes a very long time (5 min), requires a research upgrade, or both. Another posibility is that the hydra "children" are much weaker than their "parents", and/or deal less damage.

    I think that having hydras spawn fits more with their namesake (okay, so they don't grow more heads when you kill them, but it is the whole growing more thing) and also reinforces the flavour of the infestation -- if you don't kill it now, it's gonna choke out everthing else.

  • subshadowsubshadow Join Date: 2003-04-21 Member: 15710Posts: 317Members
    I don't really like this idea. Too many "invisible" mechanics. (this gun can hurt this, but it can't hurt that)

    Gorge just needs a longer placement range and you should be smart enough to scatter them around in the area you need to defend. Don't place them all in a single spot when you know the enemy has grenade launchers.

  • Vladimir Van VodkaVladimir Van Vodka Sexy Beast Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73364Posts: 310Members
    I absolutely love this Idea,
    I do however think that it should be a re-searchable upgrade for all hydras, because early game it might be unbalanced for marine rushes.
    but other then that it's well thought out and a rather likeable idea.
  • HybridclawHybridclaw Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Posts: 1,016Members
    QUOTE (Egad! @ Oct 22 2011, 03:23 AM) »
    Another posibility is that the hydra "children" are much weaker than their "parents", and/or deal less damage.

    Additionally spawned hydras could have one stalk instead of three.


    QUOTE (Egad! @ Oct 22 2011, 03:23 AM) »
    ...also reinforces the flavour of the infestation -- if you don't kill it now, it's gonna choke out everthing else.

    Good point, as or right now infestation is more of an annoyance than a threat.
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  • Egad!Egad! Join Date: 2011-10-19 Member: 128250Posts: 143Members
    edited October 2011
    QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Oct 22 2011, 10:13 AM) »
    Additionally spawned hydras could have one stalk instead of three.


    Nice. That would clearly show that the hydra spawn were weaker than the original.

    QUOTE (subshadow @ Oct 22 2011, 05:04 AM) »
    I don't really like this idea. Too many "invisible" mechanics. (this gun can hurt this, but it can't hurt that)

    Gorge just needs a longer placement range and you should be smart enough to scatter them around in the area you need to defend. Don't place them all in a single spot when you know the enemy has grenade launchers.


    I'm not sure that it's much more "invisble" than the rest of the game. I've heard several times people complain about how hard lurks are to kill with LMGs. But that's because LMGs aren't meant for killing lurks, you really need a shotgun to do that. Then they are easy to kill. Many new players don't learn this on their own, and instead are told by a more experienced player how to properly kill lurks.

    With the roots, all it takes is one game of thinking you killed hydras, only to have them grow back, to realize that there are roots you also have to take care of. I agree it, perhaps, isn't 100% intuitive, but I really don't believe it's that hard to figure out.

    Still, it might be best to make the roots merely resistant to grenade/gunfire, so that they are just harder to take out using them. You can use grenades/guns to kill roots, but it's better to use ARCs, Flamethrowers, or Axes. In the same way you can technically kill fades with axes or LMGs, but it's much better to use flamethrowers and shot guns.

    QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Oct 22 2011, 09:54 AM) »
    I do however think that it should be a re-searchable upgrade for all hydras, because early game it might be unbalanced for marine rushes.


    A distinct possibility.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    edited October 2011
    Not a fan of hydras spawning more over time, myself. I do like how hydras tend to cluster into farms or forests, but that tendency is under firm control of the gorge, who has to pay for it.

    How about an alternate type of hydra? It starts with just one stalk, then grows mini stalk-lets out over time that can be individually targeted? I'm thinking a cost of 1 res more than normal hydras, and a total number of 5 stalks per placed/paid planting after a long period of time. That way, they're more efficient in terms of late-game dps per res, but less spammable.

    That way, you've got your standard combat-hydra for combat gorging or defending volatile areas, and an alt-fire guard-dog hydra that can be great for keeping those obscure paths into your base safe from rambo marines.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • inFamous DesigninFamous Design Join Date: 2011-10-16 Member: 127667Posts: 36Members
    Maybe you can only place parent stalks (biggest hydras) by/on cysts and then the stalks can grow on the mini-cysts. This would make it impossible for gorges to rush into the base, place mini-cysts, then take the place over with hydras. This would in the end would force gorges to place their hydras farther back and in more fortified areas.
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  • KurrineKurrine Join Date: 2010-07-03 Member: 72235Posts: 478Members
    edited October 2011
    I love the idea +1, it would make the losses less costly, a lowered price would just increase spamming and that's no good, so this seems a more elegant method actually. Clearing wouldn't be outright impossible by any means either, cysts are usually the first thing to die in nade spam anyways.
    In addition I'd like to suggest the placement behavior change slightly, perhaps changing the slow grow-up time of placing a hydra to instant, but require the root grow the stalks over time after that. It's mostly a visual thing though it may be longer than the grow-up time depending on what is agreed to be a good length to be applied.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Shadow58Shadow58 Join Date: 2009-11-17 Member: 69406Posts: 77Members
    edited October 2011
    Without going into everything said to this point and taking like the first post into account kinda, I think it's a great idea, however... there needs to be a time period the roots don't regrow the stalks, and when the stalks do regrow they take 2/3's longer than an initial build of the structure, this leaves it that if it's left unattended for a reasonable time then it regrows. it takes time but it gets there. Also stalks should initially grow, then spawn from them roots... that grow outwardly to the nearest hive, or the nearest root that is connected or busy connecting to the hive. so it grows out in the shape of a vine on the ground.. a root.. and reaches the hive connecting it to a main living source, if a root has already been established to the hive and a new stalks been made, it's root will travel growing out longer and longer towards the hive but then connect eventually to the nearest root then from there the entire root from that point of the connection to the hive grows slightly thicker (this indicates that the root has connections and takes up less space, instead of showing 20 or more roots if there's 20 or more stalks planted) maybe even have it that the root goes to the nearest structure around not necessarily a hive, or better nearest Bigger Hydra defense structure around. In addition to all this infestation if removed can kill off any root not on top of infestation as-well as any stalk that's not connected to any root that's connected to infestation. The thicker the root gets indicates many roots and stalks, if some stalks die with their roots, the main root which is the bigger one will shrink accordingly.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • l3lessedl3lessed Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Posts: 374Members
    edited November 2011
    I'm for this; I do think it should be a level 1 upgrade so aliens have to make a strategical decision if they want to invest in securing current territory or us the resources to expand quicker. Also to make it more apparent to new players, the devs could just put some sort of visual and auditory indicator. They could make the roots writhe in pain, bleed a little green goo, and make a very subtle squealing in pain noise to indicate they need to be finished off. As it heals itself and begins regrowing the visual and auditory indicators will slowly go away.

    I don't know about the Hydra growing smaller hydra's; it sounds really cool, and I like how it ties into the whole natural organic growing feel of the aliens and infestation, but I worry about balance; especially with the possibility of whips hitting back grenades. If it could be implemented in a way which didn't reinforce or increase heavy turtling and was also balanced, I think it sounds like a fun an creative game mechanic. Maybe make the current hydra a little weaker when it first spawns, but if it lives long enough to sprout all its off spring it is a little stronger than now; it wouldn't be a massive difference, but enough to offset any balance problems. This way it also fits into the concept of infestation growth.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Fluid CoreFluid Core Join Date: 2007-12-26 Member: 63260Posts: 399Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    This sound like a good and reasonable idea. However, I think that bullet weapons should still kill the entire hydra normally (perhaps a tad bit slower). The reason would be that the shrapnel and heat from the nade only tear through the air and stalks, while bullets would penetrate into the infestation and tear of the roots too. Because, let's face it, the problem for hydras are the nades, and marines need a way to kill off hydras from range/out of axe range. They just need to put abit more of effort into it.

    All in all, a great idea.

    +1
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  • ryknow69ryknow69 Join Date: 2008-03-24 Member: 63952Posts: 854Members
    I support the root and stalk idea

    Nothing else

    Keep it simple people, this is how good ideas die, bad ideas clog the thread
    go make a different thread for that spawning new hydras stuff
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  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Posts: 1,566Members
    This reminds of the Shredder Turret from Command and Conquer 3.

    I support this idea.
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  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Nov 6 2011, 10:49 PM) »
    This reminds of the Shredder Turret from Command and Conquer 3.

    I support this idea.

    Shredder was so OP as Marked of Kane; once you got particle beams, you could just drop a cloaking tower and spam fields of them and not even bother making Obelisks.

    The sentiment is sort of applicable here; once you get gorges that know to place their Hydras on the ceiling, you don't even need to bother with whips any more. Maybe JP+HMG will change that like the MARV changed shredder spam.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • ryknow69ryknow69 Join Date: 2008-03-24 Member: 63952Posts: 854Members
    yea, JP+HMG will make this idea viable indefinantly
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  • DarkOmenDarkOmen Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7148Posts: 600Members
    Awesome idea! This would really force the marines to move out together, and it really fits the name "Hydra".
  • PapayasPapayas Join Date: 2010-07-01 Member: 72219Posts: 812Members
    Another adjustment for a hydra:

    The damage upgrades should affect it.
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