<!--quoteo(post=1876987:date=Sep 26 2011, 10:28 AM:name=Steinhauer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steinhauer @ Sep 26 2011, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never even thought of removing the CC from a tech point! I'm not sure how I feel about it though... I'd still kinda like robotics facility not to be tied down... who knows<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would solve a lot of problems with robot deployment and prevent Coms from accidentally facing them into the wall; that'd be nice.
Ok, how about tech points give team wide passive benefits. You could limit it to only the areas the techpoint controls or you could make it map wide. It would also make sense because you have unlocked a part of the bases computer system which assists in removing the threat, be it through alien bacteria hijacking or human repair of the system.
The benefits would be small enough to provide assistance, especially for newer players, but not large enough to cause a huge sway in battle. Small things like quicker clip reload for marines, minor buff to resource collection, maybe nano self healing for marine buildings at extremely slow rate, maybe minor bacterium armor debuff on marines for aliens, so on so fourth. Notice also how these are more mechanical buffs than direct player buffs. This helps to mix up the game so it is different each time without causing the slippery slope problem in balance when locking tech down to map control.
<!--quoteo(post=1877036:date=Sep 26 2011, 03:53 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Sep 26 2011, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1877036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, how about tech points give team wide passive benefits. You could limit it to only the areas the techpoint controls or you could make it map wide. It would also make sense because you have unlocked a part of the bases computer system which assists in removing the threat, be it through alien bacteria hijacking or human repair of the system.
The benefits would be small enough to provide assistance, especially for newer players, but not large enough to cause a huge sway in battle. Small things like quicker clip reload for marines, minor buff to resource collection, maybe nano self healing for marine buildings at extremely slow rate, maybe minor bacterium armor debuff on marines for aliens, so on so fourth. Notice also how these are more mechanical buffs than direct player buffs. This helps to mix up the game so it is different each time without causing the slippery slope problem in balance when locking tech down to map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But aliens are already locked down to map control, and one of the big early concepts of the game has been intense fighting over territory, with huge stakes on both sides. Your idea seems to aim at exactly the opposite, and I would argue it diminishes the RTS aspect of the game. Things are generally more exciting when every action and event has huge ramifications, I think most of us would agree. I think my idea would do a lot to help SOLVE the balance issue, and if it's still unbalanced when implemented there are plenty of other things to be done that would balance out the game.
how about making it tied to economy. the longer u sit on one tech point the slower your rts bring in the money. kinda like starcraft. u run out of minerals and gas about 10 mins in on your main. But i do think the tech point should be use for something else other then a rts entity. becuse no team is going to use more then one commander. why build another rts spot? make it tie into gameplay better imo.
I think the original idea of tieing armslab and proto to techpoints is nice. However please bear in mind that marines will need pgs in every single game to phase between bases in order to defend them. What i want to say: In ns1 the rines usually had one base which was easily protected by beacon etc. If now the techstructures only can be build on techpoint you will need bases on different parts of the map. this will lead to the need of pgs in every game instead of making it a strategic choice wheather eg going pg first or avoid pgs for some time.
I think its great to try those thins out in schimmels mod. thanks for your work :)
One of the greatest aspects of NS1 was how different the aliens and marines played. These suggestions of tying marine tech to tech points is making both sides exactly the same. We already have an alien commander now. Now we're going to force marines to be exactly like aliens and have their tech tied to map control. I personally am not a fan of this mechanical leveling of the teams. They're both starting to operate very similar, especially from a RTS point of view. Nothing is worse in an RTS game then all the races playing exactly the same and just having different "units."
I don't mind if my idea doesn't garner support, but I would rather see a more creative and interesting way of implementing tech points other then copying the aliens. I like the idea of resource output being tied directly to tech points. Each techpoint gives your resource nodes a little extra collection; tie this together with slower node collection rates in general, and you have a very good reason to fight over tech points. It also has larger ramifications on the game too.
There is a reason no modern RTS ties tech to map control. It is almost impossible to balance and makes for extremely linear games which get boring fast.
<!--quoteo(post=1877303:date=Sep 29 2011, 01:23 AM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Sep 29 2011, 01:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1877303"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a reason no modern RTS ties tech to map control. It is almost impossible to balance and makes for extremely linear games which get boring fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good luck getting endgame units out in Starcraft II with only the resources in your starting base, you really need at least one expansion (sort of like NS tech points) to have the gas for the later units. No its not directly 'tied' to map control, but you do require a decent amount of control to be able to keep pace with the other players and tech up to stronger units or counters.
I do agree with your point/the point in general that there shouldn't be artificial barriers to teching up, lack of resources should be the only thing stopping you. I think already the game is too tied to tech points and not to resource nodes... basically right now either Aliens get their 2nd hive up and win, or Marines successfully lock them out of the hives and dominate until they have the res to push into Alien Start.
I would support moving the focus away from tech points and back on to keeping control of resource nodes, how exactly this should be accomplished I'm not sure. Perhaps making resource nodes give hives bonus energy regen but lower initial re-gen would be one incentive (although aliens can be screwed for energy as it is already). Some way of converting personal res from the alien comm to hive energy could work to solve that problem.
Marines already have their focus on resource nodes, maybe they do need a bit more of an incentive to drop a CC? Right now they don't drop CC's even if they do control tech points. I like the idea that each CC should give a bonus resource income for every extractor (stacking in a linear fashion) to compensate the 20 res to drop the CC and provide a reason for them to hold tech points.
<!--quoteo(post=1876876:date=Sep 25 2011, 07:18 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Sep 25 2011, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that is something i suggested about 1 month ago (and i guess others did even before me).
there are a few structures that define a way in the tech tree: for aliens: 3 types of chambers
for marines you also have 3: robotics, prototype lab, arms lab.
maybe it would be smarter to add the whip and the obs as well to this list. but im not sure about that yet. if i remove all whip upgrades, but instead put all damage + defense upgrades there, you have an equivalent to the arms lab (would be just fair). but maybe it would be wrong to directly compare alien and marine tech tree, and instead define "steps". such a step is not really a tier, but in combination they open powerful possiblities: prototype lab + arms lab, robotics + arms lab or proto + robotics (= T2). well, and all 3 of the is T3. for aliens nothing would change, except i would untie life forms from hives and make them instead more powerful through abilities (which are tied to hives, like it was in ns1)
once i have some time i would like to implement that (or a variation) in my mod to see if it works.
edit: it was actually pretty easy to make that, just needed to change a few values and untie the command station from the tech point.
Im not a big fan of Tech points controlling what tech u can have, I do like the resource Idea for marines thats great,but honoestly if marines have 3-4 RTs they can get everything they need pretty easy. Another idea might be tech points can control how many marines can use Exo (HA and JP) at any given time. For example Marine main = 3 Jp/HA accesible, and every tech point u get gives u +3 more this can also be implemented with the better weps as well. So u want more Comm chairs to access more equip for ur troops. Now that i think of it this can be implemented with everything even SGS and GL's that would make the marines want to grab a tech point early in the game. This way even if the marines are loosing but get HA can move out as a team and capture another tech point with the help of the others as well.
If this were to happen i would suggest to take away Upgraded armory and just use regular armory to get everything from, since their would be controlled number of equipment from the tech points.
Edit* would also cause marines to work together because if someone has a sg and i dont im following him so when he dies i can get it
Comments
It would solve a lot of problems with robot deployment and prevent Coms from accidentally facing them into the wall; that'd be nice.
The benefits would be small enough to provide assistance, especially for newer players, but not large enough to cause a huge sway in battle. Small things like quicker clip reload for marines, minor buff to resource collection, maybe nano self healing for marine buildings at extremely slow rate, maybe minor bacterium armor debuff on marines for aliens, so on so fourth. Notice also how these are more mechanical buffs than direct player buffs. This helps to mix up the game so it is different each time without causing the slippery slope problem in balance when locking tech down to map control.
The benefits would be small enough to provide assistance, especially for newer players, but not large enough to cause a huge sway in battle. Small things like quicker clip reload for marines, minor buff to resource collection, maybe nano self healing for marine buildings at extremely slow rate, maybe minor bacterium armor debuff on marines for aliens, so on so fourth. Notice also how these are more mechanical buffs than direct player buffs. This helps to mix up the game so it is different each time without causing the slippery slope problem in balance when locking tech down to map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But aliens are already locked down to map control, and one of the big early concepts of the game has been intense fighting over territory, with huge stakes on both sides. Your idea seems to aim at exactly the opposite, and I would argue it diminishes the RTS aspect of the game. Things are generally more exciting when every action and event has huge ramifications, I think most of us would agree. I think my idea would do a lot to help SOLVE the balance issue, and if it's still unbalanced when implemented there are plenty of other things to be done that would balance out the game.
2 tech for first cc, and then 1 for everyone one afterwards.
This will also prevent players from spreading their resources too thin in early games over too much tech.
However please bear in mind that marines will need pgs in every single game to phase between bases in order to defend them.
What i want to say: In ns1 the rines usually had one base which was easily protected by beacon etc.
If now the techstructures only can be build on techpoint you will need bases on different parts of the map. this will lead to the need of pgs in every game instead of making it a strategic choice wheather eg going pg first or avoid pgs for some time.
I think its great to try those thins out in schimmels mod. thanks for your work :)
I don't mind if my idea doesn't garner support, but I would rather see a more creative and interesting way of implementing tech points other then copying the aliens. I like the idea of resource output being tied directly to tech points. Each techpoint gives your resource nodes a little extra collection; tie this together with slower node collection rates in general, and you have a very good reason to fight over tech points. It also has larger ramifications on the game too.
There is a reason no modern RTS ties tech to map control. It is almost impossible to balance and makes for extremely linear games which get boring fast.
Good luck getting endgame units out in Starcraft II with only the resources in your starting base, you really need at least one expansion (sort of like NS tech points) to have the gas for the later units. No its not directly 'tied' to map control, but you do require a decent amount of control to be able to keep pace with the other players and tech up to stronger units or counters.
I do agree with your point/the point in general that there shouldn't be artificial barriers to teching up, lack of resources should be the only thing stopping you. I think already the game is too tied to tech points and not to resource nodes... basically right now either Aliens get their 2nd hive up and win, or Marines successfully lock them out of the hives and dominate until they have the res to push into Alien Start.
I would support moving the focus away from tech points and back on to keeping control of resource nodes, how exactly this should be accomplished I'm not sure. Perhaps making resource nodes give hives bonus energy regen but lower initial re-gen would be one incentive (although aliens can be screwed for energy as it is already). Some way of converting personal res from the alien comm to hive energy could work to solve that problem.
Marines already have their focus on resource nodes, maybe they do need a bit more of an incentive to drop a CC? Right now they don't drop CC's even if they do control tech points. I like the idea that each CC should give a bonus resource income for every extractor (stacking in a linear fashion) to compensate the 20 res to drop the CC and provide a reason for them to hold tech points.
there are a few structures that define a way in the tech tree: for aliens: 3 types of chambers
for marines you also have 3: robotics, prototype lab, arms lab.
maybe it would be smarter to add the whip and the obs as well to this list. but im not sure about that yet. if i remove all whip upgrades, but instead put all damage + defense upgrades there, you have an equivalent to the arms lab (would be just fair). but maybe it would be wrong to directly compare alien and marine tech tree, and instead define "steps". such a step is not really a tier, but in combination they open powerful possiblities: prototype lab + arms lab, robotics + arms lab or proto + robotics (= T2). well, and all 3 of the is T3. for aliens nothing would change, except i would untie life forms from hives and make them instead more powerful through abilities (which are tied to hives, like it was in ns1)
once i have some time i would like to implement that (or a variation) in my mod to see if it works.
edit: it was actually pretty easy to make that, just needed to change a few values and untie the command station from the tech point.
familiar but different:
<img src="http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/1038/2011092500001d.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
If this were to happen i would suggest to take away Upgraded armory and just use regular armory to get everything from, since their would be controlled number of equipment from the tech points.
Edit* would also cause marines to work together because if someone has a sg and i dont im following him so when he dies i can get it