Everything Wrong With Combat:

SuperTeflonSuperTeflon Join Date: 2003-12-31 Member: 24893Banned
edited January 2004 in NS General Discussion
1) The 'shortened respawn waves' MASSIVELY benefits Onos, Jetpackers, and to a lesser extent, Fades and Heavy Armor. In old Combat, once the onos showed up, really, who cares. You could kill him and not worry about him for a while. Now, whichever team gets the high tech first will almost always win, simply because they can kill more in a shorter amount of time, die, and repeat.

<i>Most games I see aliens lose in, it's because they're all still skulks, with maybe a lerk, no fades or onos, and the marines get their HA/JPs first. Or vice versa, aliens have fades and onos before the marine team all has HA/JP. In Beta 1, a team of level 6 marines could be facing fades and onos and still have a fighting chance. No longer is that true.</i>

<b><span style='color:red'>Classification: Highly Unbalancing</b></span>

<span style='color:blue'>Solution: Restore the respawn timer, but at slightly less severity. Removing it completely has crippled gameplay, and the winner can usually be decided only several minutes into the game, as opposed to 180 degree comebacks in Beta 1</span>

2) By design flaw, neither team can now get nearly as high tech as they used to, as armor and such now costs more. Heavy Armor is NOT worth two points, as it is no where near as powerful as a jetpack. Likewise, lerk is VASTLY more powerful then just one point.

<b><span style='color:red'>Classification: Slight Annoyance</b></span>

<span style='color:blue'>Solution: Increase the maximum amount of levels.</span>

3) Aliens do not have need for hive four abilities except in the case of the gorge and the skulk. Acid Rocket isn't very useful in close-ranged combat maps (Fade doesn't really need the protection of range, as he dies and respawns as a fade), primal scream is used even less then it is in Classic NS (As is umbra, as there's little need to protect the higher lifeforms in Combat). This means that aliens, for the very low costs and unnecessary upgrades, can get the equivilent of a JP/Shotty, HA/HMG, etc. in <b>half</b> the time it takes marines to.

<i>The reasoning behind this: Alien upgrades are not needed. I myself rarely get them outside celerity / adrenaline. It takes marines 7 points to get HA/HMG. It only takes 5 for aliens to get an onos, which is comparable to HA/HMG. The HA/HMG combo gives you more armor, slower speed, and a bigger gun. Onos is the exact same. Likewise, the lerk costs a whopping two points to get, and, because of the low cost, can decimate a marine team early on.</i>

<b><span style='color:red'>Classification: Moderate to High Imbalance</b></span>

<span style='color:blue'>Solution: Increase the cost of lifeforms. Lerk to two, fade and onos to three. (Once onos begins to survive more, this flaw will be much more apparent) Onos will cost just as much as an HA/HMG, and they should then appear at around the same time.</span>

4) Welding Marines can kill several enemies, weld, and kill more. As a gorge, you're stuck in the hive (due to the long amount of time it takes to heal the hive), getting almost no experience. Basically, once you decided to start healing, you're going to be stuck there for the rest of the game. Furthermore, advancing evolution means that aliens 'lose' their welders. No one should be forced to sacrifice their fun for the good of the team.

<b><span style='color:red'>Classification: Severe Annoyance</b></span>

<span style='color:blue'>Solution: Either increase the XP gained for 'buddy' kills to the gorge, or greatly increase the XP gained for healing the hive. Furthermore, they should be allowed to 'roll back' to gorge temporarially (they do not get a point back, but are free to gestate back into their old lifeform). Regestating should take much longer, and dying as an egg should spawn you back as your lifeform you were before you rolled back to gorge.</span>

5) Skulks. With focus. Camping spawnpoints.

<b><span style='color:red'>Classification: Severe Imbalance</b></span>

<span style='color:blue'>Bring back respawn invulnerability. Player-induced (meaning using movement keys, not just an impulse from xenocide) movement should cancel invulnerability (No more free bites from a skulk).</span>

Comments

  • KRaggKRagg Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8832Members
    1) Biggest problem I've seen with this is it's a bit harder to push all the way to the aliens as marines. Just bringing back the old system is hardly a valid solution tho, as many picked up the habit of not buying upgrades early on and thus being able to continually rush the enemy base.

    2) Why isn't heavy armor worth two points? You compare it to the jetpacks in cost, but while they are mutually exclusive, they're hardly comparable in terms of operation, and thus cost. On the other hand, the strength of the heavy armor is in the armor upgrade, and in beta 1, there was another choice you could take from armor 2, armor 3. HA compared to A3 is quite superior and should therefore cost more. Otherwise there is no incentive at all to stay LA with A3.

    3) Agree with the problem, but not with the solution. Rather, the solution should be to make the hive 3 upgrades more interesting. Raising the onos and fade cost to your numbers would make an onos cost 7 points, leaving a meagre two points available for upgrades, and that's rather ridiculous. What the onos needs is a couple of more points to play around with, not fewer. As for the fade, they're also starved for points as it is.

    As for the cost of the upgrades, it'd cost onos 7 points to get all their weapons, and you're also not factoring in the need for upgrades. An unupgraded onos is weak and can hardly be compared to a HA/HMG.

    5) Marines. With shotgun+resupply. Camping spawnpoints.

    You seem awfully marine sided, I have to admit.
  • SuperTeflonSuperTeflon Join Date: 2003-12-31 Member: 24893Banned
    edited January 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Biggest problem I've seen with this is it's a bit harder to push all the way to the aliens as marines. Just bringing back the old system is hardly a valid solution tho, as many picked up the habit of not buying upgrades early on and thus being able to continually rush the enemy base.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Agreed. I really don't have a REAL solution to this, but completely removing the spawn timer makes finishing games an exercise in futility. Comparing the old to the new system, I'd gladly have the old.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Why isn't heavy armor worth two points? You compare it to the jetpacks in cost, but while they are mutually exclusive, they're hardly comparable in terms of operation, and thus cost. On the other hand, the strength of the heavy armor is in the armor upgrade, and in beta 1, there was another choice you could take from armor 2, armor 3. HA compared to A3 is quite superior and should therefore cost more. Otherwise there is no incentive at all to stay LA with A3.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Do you even PLAY combat? How many games have ended because of jetpacks? Really, almost every one does. Compared to the two point jetpack, the game ender, heavy armor is worth only one point. The only real solution would be to increase jetpacks to three points. Why? Because heavy armor is good for defending or killing aliens, NOT making your way to the hive and killing it there, and killing aliens does NOT win the game.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) Agree with the problem, but not with the solution. Rather, the solution should be to make the hive 3 upgrades more interesting. Raising the onos and fade cost to your numbers would make an onos cost 7 points, leaving a meagre two points available for upgrades, and that's rather ridiculous. What the onos needs is a couple of more points to play around with, not fewer. As for the fade, they're also starved for points as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    They can't and won't modify hive three upgrades, as it'd directly affect Classic NS, and cause problems there. Furthermore, you don't seem concerned that HA/HMG have damage and armor, but are stuck with only two points. Hmm, resupply or a welder? Motion tracking or damage 2? All an onos needs is celerity and carapace, and possibly adreneline. The marines have to make tech sacrifices, why shouldn't the aliens?

    <b>Marines</b>:

    Jetpack - Costs 4 points.
    Heavy Armor - Costs 4 points.
    Shotgun - Costs 2 points.
    HMG/GL - Costs 3 points.

    Really, any combination up there leaves either only 2 upgrade points left, or 3.

    <b>Aliens</b>:

    Lerk - Costs 2 points.
    Fade - Costs 3 points.
    Onos - Costs 5 points.

    That leaves 4 upgrades for an onos, 6 for a fade, and 7 for a lerk. Really, how is that fair?

    (BTW: Since I can see you complaining that armor and weapon 0 marines can get all the other tech it's fair, I'm going to point out that the same is true of a skulk, and I'm specifically comparing high tech upgrades, lifeforms, weapons, and armor)

    Both teams have exactly 15 choices of 'upgrades' they can chose. However, in the case of aliens, most of the upgrades are either redundant, unnecessary (Focus Onos), or unneeded (redemption). This means that an onos is worth 33% of the alien tech tree, a fade is 40%, and a lerk is over 50%!

    Meanwhile, with the marines, their choices are really only 25% or 33% of the tech tree (40% if you chose level 3 instead of armor upgrade).

    Furthermore, while several alien tech upgrades are worthless, almost all of the marine tech is useful (not quite all, but much more then the alien tree)

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the cost of the upgrades, it'd cost onos 7 points to get all their weapons, and you're also not factoring in the need for upgrades. An unupgraded onos is weak and can hardly be compared to a HA/HMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Really? You know the onos has an easy to spam one-hit kill called devour, and HA are very susceptible to it. If anything an onos is an even match for TWO HA/HMG. Really, show me one HA/HMG that can kill a vanilla onos of equal skill in a combat map. It doesn't happen. The onos would either instantly devour him, or smack him around a bit.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5) Marines. With shotgun+resupply. Camping spawnpoints.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So what, it's the same problem. I just mention focus camping skulks because they're MUCH more effective, as the marines are limited by ammo and reloading, a focus skulk can kill <b>instantly</b>. Just because I didn't mention every single god damn possibility doesn't mean I'm <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->awfully marine sided<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> as you said. Did you really think I meant ONLY marines should have respawn invulnerability? I didn't say that, don't assume I did.
  • FoolishOne9kFoolishOne9k Join Date: 2003-06-11 Member: 17278Members
    1) I agree with you here since its almsot impossible for a team of aliens to kill the cc due to welders and fast respawn rines. If the rine team gets a few naders and a bunch of hmgers the alien team cant win cause they just get 5 bites in and a nade plops down on theri head from the level 10 they just killed.

    2) The reason you only get 9 points to spend on upgrades/forms is so you have ot pick and choose carefully. A bunch of onos with clerity adren cara regen focus etc.... would destroy all things rine. For the rines a bunch of lvl 3 hmg jp resuuply catalyst mt scan etc.... would be able to hold off almsot anything even the alien onos i described above.

    3) Yes onos is alot cheaper to get than ha/hmg but your forgetting somehitng there. hmg is long ranged and an onos is not. I usually go onos whenever im an alien and if you find a ha/hmger and medium range as a vanilla onos your dead. I've died to two lmgers at medium range jsut because they could unload two clips into me each before i even got close. For an onos to be effective it needs carapace and regen so it can survive the ranged differnces which puts it up to 7 points imagine that.

    4) Remember this is sitll a beta so they are testing things out. Yes welding rines are annoying but can be overcome with a few good alien players. Gorges are the alien form of welders. they jsut have to web up a hallway near a corner and wait for a unsuspecting rine to get in web them heal spray him to death. If you get two gorges doing this nothign can stop them cause even if web wears off before you die your almsot dead and they are healing eachother. Personally i think there should be a upgrade (possibley replacing redempt in combat *if possible*) that allows the alien to heal its nearby aliens like a portable d chamber so it still costs one point and it acts jsut like a welder.

    5) Camping spawns is extremely annoying. Since they added faster respawn they get more kills faster but if enough rines/aliens spawn at once they can easily overrun the attackers but by that time they are screwed cause the other team is already much higher level. Spawn protection though isnt a good idea either. if you let the other team get that far into your base where it can spawn camp the game is practically over anyways. and with spawn camp all hopes of attacking the cc/hive has fialed cause you cant kill the other team but they can kill you.
  • KRaggKRagg Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8832Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you even PLAY combat?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What does this have to do with me suggesting the cost of the HA should be compared to A3 rather than JP? Re-read my point, I do not bring in a comparison to the JP, because that was not what your point was about. It was about the HA. increasing the point of the JP would be a separate item and not covered by your previous statement.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Furthermore, you don't seem concerned that HA/HMG have damage and armor, but are stuck with only two points. Hmm, resupply or a welder? Motion tracking or damage 2? All an onos needs is celerity and carapace, and possibly adreneline. The marines have to make tech sacrifices, why shouldn't the aliens?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Your onos would have a severe longevity problem without getting regen, I'm afraid.

    A skulk who gets all the upgrades sacrifices going to a higher lifeform. Higher lifeforms sacrifices getting all the upgrades, I can't say I see the difference here. An onos may get by on for example regen/adren/cele/stomp, but they may just as well want to try out a different combination. The aliens make just as much a tech choice as the marines. In fact, choosing your upgrades as an onos locks in your fighting style a lot more than taking the marine tech tree to level 10.

    That said, some of your costs are rather... off-base. While there are pre-requisites to the shotgun, JP and HA, and does lock down points, you cannot say the JP or the HA or the shotgun costs four points. You can say the JP+A1+A2 costs four points, or that W1+Shotgun costs 2 points. You are, essentially, hiding some of the benefits to make the cost seem steeper than they are.

    There are, however, some sacrifices made. A GL costs 2 points, because you lose the previously bought Shotgun, and it is the same with HMG. For aliens, the technology tree is designed differently. There isn't any direct posibility for pre-requisites other than for the lifeforms, and the cost spent from buying a new lifeform comes at the cost of the old one.

    1 point will, at the moment, give you gorge, but you will loose your speed, wall-climbing and good offensive capabilities. 2 points will get you lerk, at the loss of both of the earlier evolutions. 3 points will give you fade and 5 will give you onos, all the time having to sacrifice what you spent the earlier points on.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Furthermore, while several alien tech upgrades are worthless, almost all of the marine tech is useful (not quite all, but much more then the alien tree)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Which are worthless and why?


    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really? You know the onos has an easy to spam one-hit kill called devour, and HA are very susceptible to it. If anything an onos is an even match for TWO HA/HMG. Really, show me one HA/HMG that can kill a vanilla onos of equal skill in a combat map. It doesn't happen. The onos would either instantly devour him, or smack him around a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Given the range advantage, which is supposed to be the marine forte, the HA/HMG will always be able to kill a vanilla onos. heck, I don't need a HA or armor upgrades for it, just a bit of distance. And devour is relatively easy to dodge too, and the onos will quickly run out of energy if they spam it.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->awfully marine sided <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    as you said. Did you really think I meant ONLY marines should have respawn invulnerability? I didn't say that, don't assume I did. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Assumptions are funny, sometimes they come back to bite you. That final comment was not made in regards to point 5, but rather towards your whole post.
  • SuperTeflonSuperTeflon Join Date: 2003-12-31 Member: 24893Banned
    edited February 2004
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That said, some of your costs are rather... off-base. While there are pre-requisites to the shotgun, JP and HA, and does lock down points, you cannot say the JP or the HA or the shotgun costs four points. You can say the JP+A1+A2 costs four points, or that W1+Shotgun costs 2 points. You are, essentially, hiding some of the benefits to make the cost seem steeper than they are.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    And? You're doing exactly what you accused me of doing, hiding other benefits behind a flat cost. Pretend jetpack and HA were available right away. Okay, so I have a jetpack, but I have no other armor. Balanced, I suppose. Likewise, you have an onos, but that onos has a 120 damage weapon, 240 to the command chair, it has a one-shot-kill weapon that gives it health, it has a very long ranged attack that can stun enemies, and... worthless ability charge. Good for getting around quickly, I suppose. Then, it has 700 health and 500 (? I think) armor. No matter, you're still skirting around the fact that the aliens get a high damage, high punishment tool for a low package cost, and marines get an a la carte deal that completely rips them off.

    (BTW: Damage 1 is worthless... 1 bullet less to kill a skulk, I'd hardly consider that worth much, especially since it's directly countered by carapace)


    Anyway, the issue isn't "HA HMG SHOULD BE ONLY 5 POINTS!". My main reason for wanting steeper costs for onos and fade is simply because <b>they show up in the game too damn early.</b>

    One more note: About the range, why do you think I mentioned COMBAT MAPS. Most combat maps are close combat.
  • KRaggKRagg Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8832Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-SuperTeflon+Feb 1 2004, 06:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Feb 1 2004, 06:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One more note: About the range, why do you think I mentioned COMBAT MAPS. Most combat maps are close combat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Your exact wording was, I believe:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really, show me one HA/HMG that can kill a vanilla onos of equal skill in a combat map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    co_kestrel, marine spawns at marine start, alien spawn at alien start, marine waits at the end of one of the long corridors, onos comes from the other side and has no other choice than to wait or run, marine would chose to wait, eventually onos runs and is moved down by HMG. done it myself, albeit I don't remember my weapons level.


    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(BTW: Damage 1 is worthless... 1 bullet less to kill a skulk, I'd hardly consider that worth much, especially since it's directly countered by carapace)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I beg to differ. Damage 1 is 10% more damage, which means you need to do 9.1% less damage to kill your target. For a caraphased onos, it's the difference between 3 and 4 reloads to kill it with the LMG. With the HMG, Damage 1 lets you do 250 more damage, that's nearly three skulks worth. If you add in the extra 20 damage you also gain from the increase with the pistol, that's 3 extra skulk kills before having to reload.
  • MaianMaian Join Date: 2003-02-27 Member: 14069Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Gold
    edited February 2004
    1)

    Agree with premise, don't like solution.

    The disadvantage of the level-based respawn system wasn't only that it was boring and made xenociding much less useful; it also defeated the purpose of spawning in waves. The devs wants each team to respawn in waves. With any specific player-based (e.g. level-based) respawn system, wave respawning becomes meaningless. With a global-based (e.g. team size-based, or constant) respawn system, teams actually respawn in waves.

    The current system leads to the problem you describe. Not only that, but it lengthens average game time considerably.

    The best specific player-based respawn system I've seen suggested is: lifeform-based respawn system. Lifeform types: skulk, gorge, lerk, fade, onos, light armor marine, heavy armor marine, jetpack marine.

    There are various solutions that can help alleviate this problem without even touching the respawn system:
    - decrease amount of exp per kill (both makes it harder to reach max level and encourages teams to attack the objective)
    - allowing de-levelling or some form of rechoosing upgrades (an improved Hambone variation)
    - somehow fix the discrepancy between lifeforms of the same level (e.g. level 10 skulk should be just as useful level 10 onos, despite the fact that the onos had to save up 5 points just to become onos

    2)

    Increasing max levels would surface another problem. Suppose the max level is 15. Consider the skulk: it can get every single upgrade and still have points available. Should the skulk be forced to morph into another lifeform just to maximize its "potential"? What if the player loves playing superskulk?

    JPs aren't much better than HA. Webs are very effective against them. Personally, I wish the lerk was more effective against JP and less effective against light armor marines.

    3)

    Again I agree with the premise but don't like the solution. Just improve 3rd hive abilities.

    4)

    Just remove the gorge altogether. Although it brings in healspray and web to combat (the other 2 abilities are useless), it just lengthens game time and tends to be boring to play since it can't place structures.

    Or revamp the gorge's abilities so they serve a purpose. Just look in the I&S forum for ideas: gorge spit having a knockback or concussion effect, bilebomb harming armor, and so forth.

    I like your solution, but I'd rather see something akin to Hambone mode. I think Hambone mode shows more promise than the default mode. If Hambone's problems are ever fixed, it should become the default (and only) combat gamemode. Flexibility is always great for tactical gameplay.

    5)

    I have mixed reactions to focus. I like how it's the counter to resupply. It's usefulness varies a lot. Once marines get level 1 armor upgrades, focus immediately goes from being super effective to being moderately effective. It's also the only alien upgrade that has a bad side. IMO, focus should be revamped so that it doesn't disadvantage the alien in any way and its effectiveness doesn't jump as rapidly.

    Spawn camping is a necessary evil with the current respawning system. If hive and CC hitpoints were decreased and respawn times increased so that either team can destroy (or severely damage) the objective before the enemy respawns, spawn camping would become far less of a problem.
  • SpazmaticSpazmatic Join Date: 2003-05-10 Member: 16184Members
    1) Waves good, spawning alone, bad. Present wave system, bad. Rather than bring back the timer, fix the wave system. Differentiate waves by levels, for example. Levels 1-4 respawn in the immediate wave after death (have waves preset to occur at certain intervals?), levels 5-8 respawn 2 waves after, 9-10 3 waves, or something along those lines? The timer system was irritating, resulted in super efficient spawn camping, etc... Having Behemoth oni respawning as fast as L1 skulks, however, is kinda silly too.

    2) Perhaps HA is not equivalent to the jetpack, however, it CANNOT remain 1 point. As someone already said, that makes it equivalent of L3 armor, which is stupid. As far as increasing the max number of levels... That would simply decrease team diversity. Everyone would have a scan sweep, some motion tracking, mines, welders, resupply, etc, rather than requiring teams to differentiate roles.

    3) First, lack of umbra use... BS. Umbraing the hive, for example, is like a per spawn activity for me when I go lerk. Not to mention the HUGE difference it makes for an onos to have umbra. Just because he now has carapace AND regen does not mean he does not need a huge decrease in the damage being dealt. And, yes, acid rocket is kind of pansy right now. However, I don't think there is a problem that they don't need high level weapons, and I honestly fail to see your logic as to why this is actually a problem.

    4) Yes. However, flipside, dedicate welder marines are a big boon as well (welder + mines + resupply + armor 3 + jetpack + scan sweep + whatever), as they stay alive better, and offer huge support benefits in base defense. But, yes, dedicate gorging is insanely boring, especially when you have to sit on the top of the hive just to get to heal. Without the bug, though, it should be tons more fun. Still, yes, it would be nice if gorges could have more fun (more experience is NOT the issue... level 10 gorge is not a lot more fun than level 2).

    5) Spawn camping is an irritation. Spawn invul back would be nice, even if it only lasted, say, .5 seconds. However, if skulks with focus are weakened by it, it could be a problem, since focus is a disadvantageous upgrade later on.
  • WasianWasian Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16268Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-SuperTeflon+Feb 1 2004, 12:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Feb 1 2004, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyway, the issue isn't "HA HMG SHOULD BE ONLY 5 POINTS!". My main reason for wanting steeper costs for onos and fade is simply because <b>they show up in the game too damn early.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You have no idea. At one point onos cost three points. At level four you could be an onos, and most mariens didn't even have shotguns. That was showing up too quick. Right now the onos shows up at a perfect time.

    1) I have no clue why the respawn system was so changed in beta 2, as I thought the beta 1 respawn was the best to date. The best idea that never got put into practice was making certain upgrades lengthening your spawn time. Such as a shottie adding three seconds, a jp adding five, an onos adding ten, or whatever the times would be. The current spawn system really is dumb as it makes a lvl 1 spawn in the same time as a lvl 10, ridiculous.

    2) Max levels are fine how they are, making the max higher would just make skulks worthless and that's no fun.

    3) Increasing the cost of alien lifeforms is ridiculous. Onos are not overpowered in any way. You hardly see more than two onos, and you always see four or more hmgs. I don't care who is holding it (ha/ja/or vanilla) one hmg is enough to kill one onos. Leave things as they are, it works fine.

    4) The battle gorge is an evil an invaluable member of the alien team and not a waste. However, I preferred combat without gorges. Totally agree with the hambone mode comment maian made. It is my favorite mode and allows for such play diversity that it's just alot of fun.

    5) Tired of one-hit focus kills? Get armor 1! So many people don't get armor one until they're level four or five, which is just kinda stupid. I don't want to see spawn invul back in, however. Spawn camping really is a necessary evil with the current quick spawns of high level players.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Level 6 is a very reasonable time for an Onos to show up with absolutely no upgrades IMHO, also taking into account the fact that a skulk has to gain those levels without any upgrades itself.
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