The Shotgun

CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
edited November 2003 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">Usefulness and lack thereof</div> Seems to me, that for 10 res, your getting little bit too much of a good deal. The grenade launcher does impressive amounts of damage, however difficult to use alone, or against a moving target. The shotgun has become the new all-around weapon. Its cheap, its effective, and devastating. HMG's, I feel, are best used against Fades and Oni, because you can lay down the law without chasing too far risking yourself. The shotgun however, is best for hive takedowns much like 1.04's HMG. The GL has become such a utility weapon I frequently hear "Why waste resources on it when the shotgun does the same thing" Well, I have to agree. The Shotgun can devastate any alien quite quickly, and it dosen't require any support. A level 1 shotgunner can take down a hive, solo, with some medpacks maybe, in 38 seconds. My point to this is the grenade launcher isn't used enough, and is not viable in a public play situation. The shotgun, is the clear choice when you need buildings *and* aliens to die, quickly, with little to no support, whereas a GL'er is dead in a 1v1 fight with a skulk.


Thats all! Thanks for taking the time to read it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Comments

  • Leaderz0rzLeaderz0rz Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7847Members
    edited November 2003
    I agree, from my experience, there is no point in using anything but a shotgun unless their is an onos. In certain hives, where you can't put Ocs on top of them, a lone JP/Shotgun marine can kill a hive solo, trust me, I have done it. I always thought the Grenade Launcher was THE building killer, now its only used to turtle in your base. I can kill an OC easier with a shotgun then i can a grenade launcher. and in 2.1 with the lerk spikes gone, I can see shotgun rushes being used to much, becuase spores is easily countered by medspam. and that just makes Defense as a first chamber even more appealing.

    Though Focus could be good for 1 on 1, but if their are two or more witha shotgun, you will still die even with taking down 1 marine, and the marine who kills you will almost get back half the cost of the shotgun lost with RFK
  • KoenigKoenig Join Date: 2003-01-23 Member: 12659Members
    The GL is a very important piece of equipment.

    Without it a couple of the bigger aliens can hide behind a corner, and take "potshots" at you wearing you down, the GL pushes them back.

    I have seen a single onos wit skulk backup halt many a HA train in its tracks, simply by hiding and stomping, letting skulks finish off the helpless HA. A single Gl would have totally prevented this.
  • RaVeRaVe Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17538Members
    The problem with the shotgun is this....it really can't devastate a WoL set into a line, or OCs covering each other in a hall (ala entrance to Engine Room hive in ns_bast)

    But I do have to agree with it being a little bit too powerful :/ Just thank Flayra that he turned it down to 8 shells per gun instead of 10 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Too bad an HA GL train is more effective than an HA SG train
  • WarmasterWarmaster Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13711Members, Constellation
    edited November 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Leaderz0rz+Nov 25 2003, 07:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Leaderz0rz @ Nov 25 2003, 07:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The GL is a very important piece of equipment.

    agree, from my experience, there is no point in using anything but a shotgun unless their is an onos. In certain hives, where you can't put Ocs on top of them, a lone JP/Shotgun marine can kill a hive solo, trust me, I have done it. I always thought the Grenade Launcher was THE building killer, now its only used to turtle in your base. I can kill an OC easier with a shotgun then i can a grenade launcher. and in 2.1 with the lerk spikes gone, I can see shotgun rushes being used to much, becuase spores is easily countered by medspam. and that just makes Defense as a first chamber even more appealing.

    Though Focus could be good for 1 on 1, but if their are two or more witha shotgun, you will still die even with taking down 1 marine, and the marine who kills you will almost get back half the cost of the shotgun lost with RFK
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    w0rd
  • Leaderz0rzLeaderz0rz Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7847Members
    thats not the point, grenade launcher shouldn't just be used for turtling and killing an onos around a courner.. It should be used to take down the alien structures, Shotguns shouldn't be able to down a hive in under 20 seconds without any way of protecting it.
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
  • noelephantnoelephant Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13518Members
    I think that the shotgun is fine.

    While it deals a tremendous amount of damage, its severe range restrictions can be a problem.

    The grenade launcher is a critical tool to marine success in many cases. It keeps those annoying lerks out of your vents. :-p It is one of the best methods to deal with WOLS's and finally, with a GL and motion tracking you can do some serious damage.
  • Nil_IQNil_IQ Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15520Members
    Can I just ask why this topic is called

    "The shotgun- usefulness and lack therof"? That makes it sound like you think the shotty is underpowered.

    Anyways, I agree with all of the above, specifically that the GL doesn't get enough use since a shotty pretty much does the same job.

    I would suggest giving the shotty it's own damage, much like the HMG has piercing. No extra damage vs anything, (it doesn't need it) but less against chambers.

    How does this fit in with the story? Who cares. Does it make the game less fun? I doubt it. I personally like being the one with the big shooty GL <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Does it unbalance the game? Well not really since you can get a GL for 15 more damage. Sure it gimps the shotty a bit, but i've always felt it needed a <i>little</i> nerfing.
  • ElderwyrmElderwyrm Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15296Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Nil_IQ+Nov 25 2003, 08:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil_IQ @ Nov 25 2003, 08:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can I just ask why this topic is called

    "The shotgun- usefulness and lack therof"? That makes it sound like you think the shotty is underpowered.

    <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Use<b>FUL</b>ness not use<b>LESS</b>ness. And the lack therof would be referring to the grenade launcher as it seems abit lacking in usefulness.

    I agree. Every weapon deserves its niche and I hardly see the GL having one. Maybe give the shotgun 1/4 less damage or 1/2 less damage to structures would do the trick? That would mean HMG = Long range and upper lifeform killer, Shotgun = Close Range and lower lifeform killing machine like it is now, and GL = Building killer.
  • MaianMaian Join Date: 2003-02-27 Member: 14069Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Gold
    How about slightly reducing shotgun ROF and reducing the "max clip size" to 7?
  • LichoLicho Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3858Members, NS1 Playtester
    In 2.1 GL is more needed because umbra is fixed and really blocks 2/3 of bullets.
  • WastedWasted Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10795Members
    edited November 2003
    I just had a HA train armed with nothing but shotguns and LMGs march into and take down a well-defended hive, blasting away an onos, two fades, a lerk and numerous skulks in the process.

    I think the aliens having only one hive (and hence no stomp) made a lot of difference. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • CheesyPetezaCheesyPeteza Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9784Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Elderwyrm+Nov 25 2003, 03:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Elderwyrm @ Nov 25 2003, 03:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Nil_IQ+Nov 25 2003, 08:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil_IQ @ Nov 25 2003, 08:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can I just ask why this topic is called

    "The shotgun- usefulness and lack therof"? That makes it sound like you think the shotty is underpowered.

    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Use<b>FUL</b>ness not use<b>LESS</b>ness. And the lack therof would be referring to the grenade launcher as it seems abit lacking in usefulness.

    I agree. Every weapon deserves its niche and I hardly see the GL having one. Maybe give the shotgun 1/4 less damage or 1/2 less damage to structures would do the trick? That would mean HMG = Long range and upper lifeform killer, Shotgun = Close Range and lower lifeform killing machine like it is now, and GL = Building killer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    LOL I was just reading topics and thoughy WHAT? Shottie useless! I'll give him a piece of my mind!

    I agree on most points, I disagree that the GL is useless though, it definately has its uses. It will be better when its reload type is changed to shottie style. If anything is lacking I think its the HMG. I don't think it should do full damage to structures, but it needs beefing up a bit, perhaps 2/3 damage.

    Its good that the shottie is used more, it was barely ever used in 1.04.
  • Amped1Amped1 Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13287Members
    Just make shotgun do reduced damage to buildings. Off topic - Thanks to the NS grenade launcher I am finally getting a grasp on how far away 25 meters is. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • LucidLucid Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10534Members, Constellation
    The time it takes to get jetpacks and shotguns is way more than enough time to protect your hive with multiple OC's and a lerk. Like you said a shotgun can easily take down OC's but a shotgunner has to get close. When he gets close he takes fire from every OC in the room plus lerk spikes and spores. Not to mention any fades gorges or skulks that might join the battle. If a lone jetpacker can take your hive out you were either losing anyway or your team neglected to properly defend the hive. If 5 jp/shotgunners come to the hive with tons of medspam then the problem lies in the fact that you let them have too much res. 4 of those jetpackers probably don't know how to use a jetpack anyway. If its 3 HAM's and a certain twoheadedchicken coming to your hive then the problem is stackage, not shotguns themselves <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> .

    So ya shotguns are an all around tool but HMG's are better than shotguns for killing aliens, and grenade launchers are better than shotguns for killing mass structures and keeping lerks back. HMG's are great for holding areas. You can have a lone jp/hmg keep the 3rd hive clear while you work on holding your res and sieging one of the other hives. HMG's are better at chasing down fades/lerks/onos and better at covering. The best way to clear out a OC infested hive is 2 hmg's covering a grenade launcher, then maybe have a few jp/shotgunners come in from behind once its clean.

    I would really hate to see any nerf to the shotgun as marines have a hard enough time dealing wih fades and random OC's. Shotguns are what keep marines in the game vs decent aliens (anything works against stupid aliens). Although that may change with 2.1 because the hitboxes are "fixed" <------ blatent sarcasm
  • Asal_The_UnforgivingAsal_The_Unforgiving Join Date: 2003-03-26 Member: 14903Members
    CWAG, you always state a GLer when he is alone, and if you know what you're doing, you are definately not alone. If you give me a GL, I do not go more than 2 feet from my nearest shottie/HMGer because they are my lifeline. I can kill skulks with my GL, but I don't like to. I have saved a HA/HMG before from a skulk or two, but it isn't what I'm there for. I am there for massed destruction and hive elimination. I take out OCs for the bigger guys. You are comparing two weapons that are not in the same league, so please keep it to weapons that can be compared. A GL is specialist, a shottie is for bug-hunts.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    In 2.1, the only long range weapons aliens have are spit (oh please) and acid rocket (3rd hive). Granted, there's spores, but spores don't kill a marine the comm doesn't want to die, medpacks make sure of that (think about that the next time you die from spores <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->). That's the thing that really worries me. The only reliable way to deal with a shotgunner will be to swarm him. God forbid they move in groups. I pray time proves me wrong.
  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
    I addressed the issue in the karaa Strat forums to help develop stratigies against this... i was mostly blown off though...

    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=53107' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=21&t=53107</a>
  • Mythr1lMythr1l Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12772Members
    the GL is a great suppression weapon, spam it in a doorway and aliens wont dare go near, shotguns only work up close, or if theres an oc spam u gotta waste a lot of res on medpacks for the shotgunners, when in the end a GL bouncing round the corner would be a lot cheaper. if you can get under the hive with shotguns and own it well then ur just owning the aliens anyway, GLs are usually needed to finish off a well defended hive.
  • Jabba_The_HuntJabba_The_Hunt Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11850Members
    well I like the shotgun as it is, a lot of games usually have very weak shotguns (remember 1.04 anyone? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->) so I would probably be in favour of increasing its price by 2 res (to 12 i believe) and then dropping its damage to structures by 10-20%, and then really increasing the gren launchers damage against buildings, though I believe the shot guns greatest strength is providing the marine team with their much needed quick response squads, aliens are really fast and HA etc just slows the marines down a little too much at times.
  • RuneGreyRuneGrey Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4844Members
    I agree that a nerf vs structures would probably be somewhat fitting to a shotgun - after all, a shottie is going to do large amounts of damage to a soft mansized target, but it does not have the sort of penetrative force to damage something of signifigant size very well, especially if the sort of really tough skin the aliens are supposed to have. Unless you want to start getting into different types of ammo, which I believe the development team is not wanting to do...?

    But really, from a balance standpoint there shouldn't be any 'one way' that dominates so completely that using other weapons are unnecessary - especially with the shottie so low down on the tech tree. The theoretical advantage of the HMG and grenade launcher's range over the shotguns close range force rarely comes into play - since most NS engagements are designed to be literal knife edge battles (especially with almost all of the aliens being made into some varation of the skulk. Running walk climbing skulks, teleporting oversized skulks, flying skulks, tank skulks) the aliens are doing a poor job if you're allowed to use the best aspects of the higher weapons against them. The shottie, on the other hand, is perfectly suited to where almost all combat takes place in NS - it gets more effective the closer you get to the enemy, and since up until hive 3 there are no more effective ranged alien attacks, its almost always going to be melee.

    So having the shotgun turned into something other than a swiss army knife would be a nice thing - perhaps a bit of specialization is in order so it doesn't become the all purpose counter.
  • DelphiDelphi Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15134Members, Constellation
    Spit not a viable long range weapon?

    Heh..

    Do you KNOW how many HA's I've taken out, SOLO, as a gorgie with only web and focus spit? IIRC, Focus spit does ~60 damage or so. All I gotta do is keep that **** webbed, and it's gg 15 res + weapon. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

    This is a moot point in vanilla NS, but it's evil in NS:C.

    I still say that 90% of the arguments on the general discussion board about balance and crap are solved by 2.1. If you don't believe me, fork out 20 bucks and find out.
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    edited November 2003
    I'm sure you all know my stance on this: agreed since 2.0 was released.

    Furthermore, Ludic, the range restriction is a problem when...

    1) Fighting lerks.

    2) Fighting Onos.

    3) Fighting Hive 3 Fade.

    Considering a shotgun is available 10 seconds into the game and not every map is ideal for lerking...
  • MadcapMagicianMadcapMagician Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15265Members, Constellation
    100% agreed that shotguns need reduced damage to structures.
    I comm all the time and the only time I EVER drop a GL is after the ping of death has started and it's time to dig that one last gorge out of his DC fortress or because we are so filthy stinking rich that i can drop whatever my marines ask for without worrying about our res.
    Shotguns are so much more effective at taking down structures. If there is really that big of a fortification that I can't knock it down with a shotgun (6+ OC and lots of DC) I'll siege it out, it's more reliable and I don't take any of my marines out of the game by making them not able to kill skulks.
  • ShazbotShazbot Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14328Members
    Without GL suppression, a single onos can stop a HA train easily...
    1 game about 7 heavies walked into comp core, and I stomped them all... because they had no GLs, they couldn't do jack **** to me. It took the skulks about a min to finish off the helpless heavies, and we ended up winning the game because of it. You guys truly underestimate the power of the GL.
  • WarriorWarrior Join Date: 2003-02-16 Member: 13624Members
    with the new lerk system, jps drop like flies so a lone jp/shotty shouldnt be a problem. in 2.1 the shotgun sometimes seems under powered, taking multiple shots to kill skulks, with the new hitboxes. I feel the shotgun is fine currently.
  • Jabba_The_HuntJabba_The_Hunt Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11850Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Warrior+Nov 26 2003, 01:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Warrior @ Nov 26 2003, 01:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> with the new lerk system, jps drop like flies so a lone jp/shotty shouldnt be a problem. in 2.1 the shotgun sometimes seems under powered, taking multiple shots to kill skulks, with the new hitboxes. I feel the shotgun is fine currently. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    thats good then, seems in 2.1 the shotgun is better balanced, hope it stays that way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    <!--QuoteBegin--Warrior+Nov 25 2003, 07:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Warrior @ Nov 25 2003, 07:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> with the new lerk system, jps drop like flies so a lone jp/shotty shouldnt be a problem. in 2.1 the shotgun sometimes seems under powered, taking multiple shots to kill skulks, with the new hitboxes. I feel the shotgun is fine currently. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    A charging 2.1 skulk has only half the hit surface compared to a 2.0 skulk, so it's really hard to land ALL those shotgun pellets in it. OTOH, a Fade or Onos has at least twice the hit surface as compared to 2.0 ... so yea, there are some balance problems needing to be sorted out.
  • StakhanovStakhanov Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members
    The rate of fire needs to be fixed. With a lower rate of fire , hives wouldn't go down that fast , and marines would have a harder time killing aliens <i>while</i> killing structures. Besides , it wouldn't affect how skulks/gorges/lerks are crushed , but would give a chance to thoses 60 res fades (shotgunner needs lmg support)

    I want to see more JP GLs in 2.1 !
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--MadcapMagician+Nov 25 2003, 03:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MadcapMagician @ Nov 25 2003, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 100% agreed that shotguns need reduced damage to structures.
    I comm all the time and the only time I EVER drop a GL is after the ping of death has started and it's time to dig that one last gorge out of his DC fortress or because we are so filthy stinking rich that i can drop whatever my marines ask for without worrying about our res.
    Shotguns are so much more effective at taking down structures. If there is really that big of a fortification that I can't knock it down with a shotgun (6+ OC and lots of DC) I'll siege it out, it's more reliable and I don't take any of my marines out of the game by making them not able to kill skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So your saying, your commanding a bunch of rambo's. Well, Congrats.


    GL is a projectile weapon, most effective taking out vent DC's, WOL's , and keeping higher lifeforms away, like Onos's. Someone made a good point how GL is a valiable counter to stomping Onos.

    Shotgun has a short range, but it deals massive damage. Which means if you want to make the most damage, you have to get pretty darn close. And by doing so you are letting yourself in high danger. Sure there are ways to keep you alive like medspam, but their all accessible to other "gun-holders" too, so it doesnt make any difference.

    Someone said that you can take out a hive/chambers with SG easily, yeah so what? You can do it with any weapon, (expect with mines, Res-wise. not worth it ;P) if your not having any counter attack from aliens when your taking the hive/chambers down. You are obviously playing against some way less skilled players. In which case shotguns specifics(<-- how is this word spelled again..) doesnt come into play.


    So in all short i dont see anything wrong with SG & GL in 2.01, cant say anything about 2.1 since i havent had the change to play it.
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