Stalemates: Bad For Ns?

AyatollahAyatollah Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
i don't see how they are really GOOD for NS.

on the other hand, I can imagine a newbie coming in for the first time, and having to sit through 45+ minutes of gren spam etc. etc. i honestly think its one of the largest obstacles in NS becoming a far more popular public server game.

i mean, i guess i'm writing this thread to ask, is there ANY point to allowing stalemates? and if not - is there any fair way to integrate something into the game that would deny them?

Comments

  • SalamanSalaman Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9711Members
    edited September 2003
    I don't see very many stalemates since the latest patch which made it so you can't reload the GL directly from armory to clip. Though there are some problem areas, namely ns_basts engine room, where onos have to crawl through the entrance to get into the hive.

    Also charge needs major buffing for damage, for the ultimate ability of the ultimate evolution, it sure lacks any impressive destructive power. You'd expect a light marine to go down instantly when hit by an onos at super speed but you have to rub against him for like 2-3 seconds if he has L3 armor.
  • OlljOllj our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
    stalemates are killing ns.
    recycle it all, build 3 obs and make a funny beaconing end.
  • AyatollahAyatollah Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
    tha'ts what i usually do (beaconing)

    there are some pretty ridiculously inaccessible spots, like sewer hive on caged - or any spot that involves a lot of ladders and drastic changes in elevation or very tight spaces.
  • JediYoshiJediYoshi The Cupcake Boss Join Date: 2002-05-27 Member: 674Members
    No kidding about bast, since it's almost hell getting into the main part of the MS as an Onos in the first place >_>

    I've had a few 100+ minute games

    Stalemates to me, indicate a certain team just not taking advantage of it, or depending if it's the usual marine base standoff, something is wrong with the area it's in, rather.
  • ZERGZERG Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13132Members, Constellation
    In most cases, the marines usually recycle when they get hunch the aliens are just jerkin off and won't finish it. I haven't really seen a real stalemate early 2.0 style in a long time.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    Stalemates are bad, yes. Sometimes hard to avoid though. And I've seen cool and classy attempts at breakouts, too.
  • GeminosityGeminosity :3 Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20667Members
    just had a 100+ minute game that finally ended in an alien win but was a stalemate all the way. Every time the marines thought they had a hive we'd take it back or grab the other one; the entire game was spent fighting with 2 hives and even when we got to 3 it was still a looong game before we finally managed to crack the marine defences with constant rains of xenocide, occasional fades and multi-onos rushes ^^;
    a lot of people left after that one, it was just far too long =/
  • Norml_E_HighNorml_E_High Join Date: 2003-03-30 Member: 15055Members
    Well I think the reloading to clip GL was a big part of long endgames, and I really haven't seen too many since the new patch. But there are still some places the marines can hole up and keep the aliens at bay, engine was a good example for onos, but thats pretty much a lerk gas deathtrap for marines. I played a 3 hour game as aliens once, on ns_lost, err I think its lost, the map with Alpha Continuum hive. Anyway the marines relocated there, and spammed turrets everywhere. Eventually after killing so many aliens with their 1 node, they had enough to outfit a few people with HA and HMG/GL. Pretty much everything we did was slapped down. I think we eventually got them by using the onos as a distraction while we combined a few lerks and gorges for bilebomb/umbra attack. We managed to get their TF, and it was over. Alot of the time though I think the marines(or aliens) get mad because they think the other team is just trying to have fun. Many times this is not the case, we are trying to get in, but we keep getting killed/whatever. When you see the other team just standing around in your base/hive not killing Ip/hive then you can assume they aren't trying to end it.
  • HazeHaze O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Sep 28 2003, 12:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Sep 28 2003, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> just had a 100+ minute game that finally ended in an alien win but was a stalemate all the way. Every time the marines thought they had a hive we'd take it back or grab the other one; the entire game was spent fighting with 2 hives and even when we got to 3 it was still a looong game before we finally managed to crack the marine defences with constant rains of xenocide, occasional fades and multi-onos rushes ^^;
    a lot of people left after that one, it was just far too long =/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I find these games fun.
  • eggmaceggmac Join Date: 2003-03-03 Member: 14246Members
    seriously, I haven't seen any stalemates for one month now.
    I've seen a lot of attempts to turtle in base from the marine side, but they've always been crushed by an organized alien team in max. 10 minutes.
  • RueRue Join Date: 2002-10-21 Member: 1564Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Sep 28 2003, 05:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Sep 28 2003, 05:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> stalemates are killing ns.
    recycle it all, build 3 obs and make a funny beaconing end. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    good idea but u can also just put about 30 mines around ur ips and when onos comes up to it *boom* onos dead and match is over , good fun way to end
  • Patrick_The_Super_SkulkPatrick_The_Super_Skulk Join Date: 2003-09-25 Member: 21212Members
    I remmeber one game in Bean-Net, which I call "the IP game" it lasted about 180 minutes. The marines got turtled in their base after their HA train got demolished. About 120 minutes were spent in the rine base, while the comm built about 50 ips or so and there were so many turrets, it was crazy. It eventually ended when about 7 onos came rampaging into the base killing everyone and everything in sight.
  • StingrayofswedenStingrayofsweden Join Date: 2003-09-20 Member: 21036Members
    Personally I like long end games since it makes it possible for a lot of playing around with the rare stuff, such as jetpacks. Also, the gorge who put down the last hive get a decent chance to get into the offensive action before the game ends. But generally, I think it's bad for the popularity with neverending matches. Though I havn't seen any of those 100+ minute I've read described on the forums but once. So the new patch is rather good at fixing slow end-games IMO.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    It's not at all a stalemate if areas are still changing hands, i.e. hives being taken back and forth...
  • GeminosityGeminosity :3 Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20667Members
    well... it was a shifting scale that always ended up where it started and it was fun while it was moving about like that... it was the extra last half where we tried to break into the marines base that was outright dull -.-
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    I think most stalemates can be attributed to poor map design.

    The 2 tiny hallways and lack of a vent to MS on tanith.
    The raised platform in Waste on tanith.
    The raised areas in Alpha Continuum on lost.
    The rotating door and elevator in MS on bast.
    The cramped entrance to Engine room on bast.
    Etc.

    All of these areas are practically impossible to take down if the marines do all they can to prevent an alien win, and its only because the maps allow it.
  • ElvenThiefElvenThief aka Elven Thief (ex. NS Programmer) Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8754Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    edited September 2003
    And to add a rebuttal to that statement, I find most stalemates can be attributed to poor teamwork/strats.

    Map locations do help, but you can't expect every map to be so simple. The ONLY thing that I see forcing the stalemate is the possibility of a grenade launcher.

    Otherwise, there's nothing like a 6 person bilebomb rush into a room (say the marine spawn on tanith - very easy to do). A bilebomb/redemption team can just target a structure, obliterate it, and redeem for round 2.
    It takes a bit of organization, but it's easy for killing off marine stalemates. Throw in a lerk for umbra support and it's wonderful. You ultimately have to deny the marines their resources to be successful, so my favorite first target is all the turrets getting the kills or the res tower in their base. Often the res tower is the easiest target.
    If you have a problem with grenade spam, acid rocket works, as well as spores/spikes/leap if you can live long enough/ just about any other attack.

    Ultimately, I as well as other pt's/vets that have posted here cannot recreate a position where there is a 100% stalemate because we all have the practice and knowledge of how to use the various alien classes to counter them.
    Stalemates are slow to break sometimes, but if you're trying to get into marine spawn on bast as an onos with 20 turrets, you're not thinking at all. Try a gorge in the vent raining bilebomb down while being umbra'd by a lerk.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--E-Th33ph+Sep 28 2003, 05:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (E-Th33ph @ Sep 28 2003, 05:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Try a gorge in the vent raining bilebomb down while being umbra'd by a lerk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    All it takes is 1 guy with a gren launcher to make that vent useless to aliens.

    3 guys with HMG/GLs makes the elevator a no-no.

    A few guys sitting by the revolving door to launch nades in there just as it opens up spells death for whatever was trying to get through there.
  • JaguarJaguar Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11859Members
    I just have to post this, because it was probably the weirdest game of NS I've ever played. We were on the map with that has Biodome - Vent - Furnace (is that ns_lost?). Anyway, playing as an alien, it was the longest back and forth game I've ever played. We take cargo, we lose cargo. We put up furnace, we lose Biodome. We retake cargo, and put up vent, and we end up losing furnace. Neither team can seem to get a hold of any territory or RTs for very long. It doesn't help that Sens was our first Chamber, and we only got one DC up (yay me!) before the second hive went down.

    Well, we finally capture three hives (while marines were busy taking out Cargo again), and start moving up to the higher evolutions. We retake cargo, and start heading for Marine Spawn when we run into the Heavies. Alien rush breaks down, and all of a sudden we've lost Biodome, and we're about to lose furnace when one of the aliens says, "I just took out the CC." Of course, the rest of the alien are so busy trying to kill heavies and save hives that no one can go to marine start to check it out. Another 10 minutes goes by cleaning out the hives and putting Furnace and Biodome back up. Then Bio starts getting attacked, and the alien team has just lost all the initiative. We scramble to Bio, but it goes down. We retake it, and then Vent gets attacked. All in all, the aliens lose 6 hives in one game before we realize that we haven't seen HMG, or HA, or Turrets for 20 minutes. After cleaning up the at the last lost hive, we decide to rush marine start. What do we see? No CC. Just marines spawning from the two ips and rushing off against the hives. After killing the tf and the ips, we learn that the Marines had amassed 1000 res and had no way to spend it.

    We felt like a bunch of noobs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    -Jag

    I apologize to anybody who read that long rambling post, but I thought it was a fun game...
  • GeminosityGeminosity :3 Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20667Members
    edited September 2003
    the main problem is that aliens have lots of weird and wonderful ways of breaking into bases, some of which can be a bit unorthadox, which boil down into 2 categories while the TSA has the same with 1 extra tagged on...

    - Ninja Marine
    - <b>Siege</b>*
    - Heavy Weapon Assault

    course in a closely clustered WoLed up last hive situation where the aliens somehow managed to retain enough res to access higher evolutions (basically a bit like the marine alamo bases - but alien style) you can just siege from outside the awesome defences without having to face anything except the aliens who come screeching out of the base to stop you.

    The aliens? um... their only options are ninja and assault and the worst part is the marines don't have to leave base at all (unless an onos decides otherwise for them =3 ).
    This means in 'bunkered' situations the marines have 1 blazingly clear option while the aliens have to be a bit more inventive.
    This wouldn't be so bad if uninventive alien teams just failed and lost (no point in rewarding lack of tactics after all; this is RTSFPS here XD ) but no... they can drag on for aaaaaages. if the marine team mucks up it's back to base, but the aliens can keep the marines pinned in pretty well (plus its hard to motivate people to leave something thats relatively safe to go out into a world full of ambushing skulks and fades, hidden ocs, WoLs and angry oni) so the marines just hold tight and time ticks by.

    What I'm getting at really is if the alien team lacks the teamwork to crack the defences there's usually not a decisive loss; just a long dragged out game until either the marines finally collapse, people quit or the marines regain the strength to break free. If the marines lack the teamwork to break an alien defence the aliens pour out across the level once more,causing havoc and eating marine hardware =P
  • AyatollahAyatollah Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
    well - this is to refer to those holed up marines who are living on 0 res nozzles and will eventually amass HA/whatever just from RFK. and yes, no hives are changing hands - more or less, the marines are not moving at all (or cannot move at all)

    <b>this is a post that i threw on the 'offending server'</b>

    my quarrel with this is

    stalemates effectively REWARD marines for having lost the game, but having had the good fortune of having an impregnable location.

    should the aliens be punished for good playing?

    the comm that couldn't figure how to get enough res to get HA in the regular game just sits back on his heels while resources from kills come in. suits up, pushes out, wins the game. if the rush fails? well, just rinse and repeat.

    i know this is, technically, 'legal' in all senses of the game. but am i the ONLY one who sees anything wrong here?

    the winner isn't really the one who has greater skill or strategies. tenacity shouldn't even be mentioned since it's only tenacious for one side, the aliens. aliens have to constantly throw themselves at a marine base with absolutely no further improvement in their situation (marines still keep their weapons when they die), while marines slowly gain res.

    but, once again, not my server. just my two cents.

    -hui
  • ElvenThiefElvenThief aka Elven Thief (ex. NS Programmer) Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8754Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->well - this is to refer to those holed up marines who are living on 0 res nozzles and will eventually amass HA/whatever just from RFK. and yes, no hives are changing hands - more or less, the marines are not moving at all (or cannot move at all)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Your objective should now be, AVOID DYING. If they're sitting on 0 res nodes, you should have them weaker and weaker as time progresses. Redemption is very advantageous here. Large upgrades, such as fades or onii (provided there is room) will be useful.
    If you quit attacking the marine base for a long enough period, marines will start to move out. Make your move then.

    The point is, if the marines are only surviving because you are feeding them the res to survive... back off for a minute or 2. Make them spend the res, then hurt them as soon as it's spent.
    In addition, if the commander does lame up and score some HA, just stomp/devour them. Multiple onos should almost be expected that late into the game.

    Agreed, it's a lame strat, but it's beatable. Most often, you'll only find this if people play not to win or lose but for the stalemate. Sorry it happens, but it is beatable, and I can't say I've ever seen a marine team win in any position when they're turtled in a base.
  • xeNixxxeNixx Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19252Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Sep 28 2003, 12:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Sep 28 2003, 12:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> stalemates are killing ns.
    recycle it all, build 3 obs and make a funny beaconing end. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    NS 2.0 gameplay is killing NS, not stalemates in general. Yet, its getting better.
  • WeltschmerzWeltschmerz Join Date: 2003-09-03 Member: 20538Members
    I thought I was the only one who LIKES "stalemates". I seek out games with only one or two players. Often it stays this way for a long time, for some reason. Usually the marine(s) lose, but you get to practice the tech tree. It is still possible to mine/farm OUT of base towards a hive, if you're careful. Anyway, I like long games; practice, indications of evenly matched teams, or just goofing around. In "reality", many armed conflict situations become just this; after initial probing/assault attempts both sides will regroup, dig in, and try over and over and over until someone makes a mistake. I would not support any tweaking of the game to speed things up. Let 'em happen as they happen; short, long, F4ing, whatever. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • KoenigKoenig Join Date: 2003-01-23 Member: 12659Members
    I dont see this problem too much anymore. Once the rines are holed up in base it will be GG in under two minutes.

    When aliens are dragging on an endgame FOREVER it's usually because they are too green to be able to.

    IMO Nade spam was not the unbreachable wall it was cracked up to be, a few onos with regen would usually run up and swallow the GL guys. Onos just had to take something other defence upgrade than that cheapish 2.0 redemption.

    In rine endgame is the same as 2.0, it usually depends on how willing the comm is to finish the game. Aliens cant really break a marine sige during the endgame, nor can they halt the HA weld train for long.
  • AyatollahAyatollah Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
    okay

    tell me how fast an onos can climb up the red ladders in sewer, go forward in them, drop down, eat, and climb back up, back out the minihall, and back down the ladders.

    problems they'll face?

    grens as they're coming up
    hmgs as they're coming down
    hmgs as they're eating
    hmgs as they're goin back up
    grens as they're goin out

    i agree a lot of it is a function of the maps - some just not having been created with this in mind.

    but i now, for example, just got off of an ns_bast game where the marines got schooled but we have to sit around for an entire game while they get res off their one nozzle, suit up, and come out and die. and then repeat. and then repeat. it really kills the fun of NS when the stalemate portion (not the open/midgame strategizing portion) of the game takes up over half of the time.
  • agentpropagentprop Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8961Members
    One thing I noticed about this thread is there are lots of examples where the aliens win the stalemate, but few (if any) examples where the marines win the stalemate. The way I see it, either the marines win the in early game, or the aliens win in a stalemate.
  • stick100stick100 Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9050Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--agentprop+Sep 30 2003, 06:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (agentprop @ Sep 30 2003, 06:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One thing I noticed about this thread is there are lots of examples where the aliens win the stalemate, but few (if any) examples where the marines win the stalemate. The way I see it, either the marines win the in early game, or the aliens win in a stalemate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Not true.

    There is no such thing as a real marine stalemate because marines can do seige and finish the game.
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