Why Is Concedeing Defeat (f4) Becoming Bannable?
Harry_S_Truman
Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9568Members
Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9568Members
The number of servers starting to ban and kick people that concede defeat and go to the ready room is disturbing me. Now I admit there are times when some players give up way to early when a comeback is possible, but most of the time it's just plain "over" for one side or the other.
I know that when I'm on a losing team and we've been badly beaten, I’d rather go to the ready room and start another game than take the ANOTHER 15 minutes to finish the inevitable. This mostly stands true for the Aliens, cause when you are beat...it's pretty much clear.
Besides, a "last stand" for aliens sucks really hard. Not fun in the very least. One hive versus Heavy Armor Marines...we've all been there.
A last stand for Marines can actually be quite amusing.
Regardless, the whole banning/kicking people for just wanting to start a new game is really only a sore winner perspective as the losers have already admitted they are beat. Just because the winners weren't allowed to humiliate the other team, they get mad and kick/ban people, a very childish reaction. Parents aren’t doing their jobs and teaching children how to win gracefully.
I know that when I'm on a losing team and we've been badly beaten, I’d rather go to the ready room and start another game than take the ANOTHER 15 minutes to finish the inevitable. This mostly stands true for the Aliens, cause when you are beat...it's pretty much clear.
Besides, a "last stand" for aliens sucks really hard. Not fun in the very least. One hive versus Heavy Armor Marines...we've all been there.
A last stand for Marines can actually be quite amusing.
Regardless, the whole banning/kicking people for just wanting to start a new game is really only a sore winner perspective as the losers have already admitted they are beat. Just because the winners weren't allowed to humiliate the other team, they get mad and kick/ban people, a very childish reaction. Parents aren’t doing their jobs and teaching children how to win gracefully.
Comments
Because it's called ruining the hard earned victory for the other team. ESP if you're a marine on a PUBLIC server.
Because it's called ruining the hard earned victory for the other team. ESP if you're a marine on a PUBLIC server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point exactly. You still won! You just want the humiliation?
The admins are not being sore losers, the F4/Retry people are. They're not accepting their defeat, and as a result it ruins the game.
voogru plugins make f4 after 5 minutes impossible, kinda sardistic sometimes, with some additional "do it and get banned" rules.
Best you can do it acting as stupid as possible to make it easier for them to kill you.
If say the other team is messing around and refusing to attack after a long period of time, then maybe I can see it, but give them a chance to kill you, they earned it after a hard game.
Do everyone a favour and do a mercy kill...
F4 when its completely hopeless.
[Not letting the guy let go (tieing up his arm to the branch) is sadistic and sad.]
Most common I've seen that the aliens do is Onos and sit near the IPs, stunning and devouring as they respawn. And for the Marines, they usually march some Heavies into the last hive, take out every structure and everyone that spawns, then begins setting up a turret factory right next to the hive.
Just get in there and finish the job, it will keep people from becoming really sore.
Most common I've seen that the aliens do is Onos and sit near the IPs, stunning and devouring as they respawn. And for the Marines, they usually march some Heavies into the last hive, take out every structure and everyone that spawns, then begins setting up a turret factory right next to the hive.
Just get in there and finish the job, it will keep people from becoming really sore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the server I admin, if they take too long, even if it's my side, I'll give them a time limit to finish the game. Also no one builds in the last hive, they just march in and unload everything they have into the hive or skulks trying to kill them, same with aliens and spawn camping.
Marines are down to their base rt. Whatever ground they gained has been lost. Aliens have 3hives and 6+rt. If you've been in a situation like this you know the following scenario is not only possible, but likely:
a) some marines want to quit, but fight on
b) some aliens "haven't had enough fun yet" and make no sincere effort to finish the game. onos begin their eat and run, there is xenocide/gas galore
c) after some more futility/monotony, some marines f4
Anyone surprised/angered with the behavior of certain marines and aliens in this situation fails to understand:
1) this is human nature; some people are not sporting
2) 2.x unfortunately encourages this due to it's slow endgame configuration; it was far less likely in 1.04
Griping about how the admins react and how the players act doesn't address the root cause.
Well, I have been on both sides.
I used to think that f4ing to start a new game was lame, it kinda is, when youre STARTING to play with the big toys, the HMGs, the HAs, Jets, etc, and 4 out of 10 people on the alien team f4 and start a new game. Its frustrating at least, but its even MORE frustrating for the losing side.
We all know nobody likes to lose, and a quick victory is not fun. However, there is no middle term for this. I can't see how chatting in the base is better than going to the readyroom, IMO its worse, mostly on full servers. If you leave, someone could join and fight to the end, but instead, you occupy one slot doing NOTHING. Its as annoying as spectating on full servers.
We can't please both sides. If we please the winning side, the losing side grow bored and will just leave the server. If we please the losing side, the winners will **** and scream at the mic and the admins will ban you.
It's not "getting out of a loss", it is still losing, only quicker. Duh. If you're playing chess and you know you've lost, you forfeit. If you're playing poker and know you've lost, you fold.
Due to the <i>winning</i> team not always finishing at a rapid pace, this is often neccesary. A few times I have seen Aliens F4 just as the Marines start unloading into the last hive, that's kind of pointless since it will be over in 2 seconds anyway but.. who cares?! You won!
Actually, I'll answer "who cares". The people that care are the ones that find winning more satisfying then playing. The people that will rather have an easy win then a challenge. You find these people stacking the easy side in CS, picking the best classes in all other games and... yes, camping IP's or hives instead of finishing the game in NS.
Sometimes the F4 is premature. You could still have a chance to win. If this is the case, it is bad character, giving up too easy. Í don't argue that. However, if you think it is "fun" fighting tier 1 opponents when you're at tier 3, I don't have any respect for you. You're not a gamer in the true sense of the word. You don't play to match your wit and skills against others. And since I have no respect for you, I don't care what you think of anyone who doesn't want to be perpetually spawncamped or take part in your childish play.
I do not mind *at all* when my opponent F4's, unless it is prematurely. The moment I know we've won, the game ceases to be fun for me. It is now just a matter of moving on to next the next game, the next challenge.
I don't see why people should have to play a boring game that everyone knows how it is going to end, just to satisfy some childish fragwhores. If other admins think that is sporting, so be it. That is a policy I find stupid in the extreme and I would never implement it, or play where it was implemented.
Ps. I've actually been on a side that is winning huge, several times, and WE F4'd. Now THAT is funny. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Most of the time it isnt a problem of the winning team standing around not killing the enemy, but the losing team putting up an annoying last stand, that is just as annoying to the losers as to the winners. Half of the losers think, "why are we bothering to fend of the aliens for these extra 30 minutes when we could just as easily be playing a new game?" While the other half thinks "Haha! Die B****** aliens! You'll never take me alive!"
Eventually the half that doesn't want to go through a 1/2 hour engame F4s out, and the server assigns an autoloss to the smaller team, which is very unsatisfying to the winning team.
It's tough to say a F4 is never called for.
Be nice & train the noobs, help the community grow, then well have more servers popping up.
So we'll all have more freedom to find more servers where we can have more fun with less rules.
Then thats their business, not yours, and as long as you play on that server, you abide by their rules.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT, MAKE YOUR OWN.
Honestly, its like saying Lifecycle On sucks in AvP2, yet you keep playing Lifecycle On games.
father: "then don't slap yourself"
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This, IMO, is the best response to this discussion.
There are three scenarios for an F4. Two are bad.
Bad #1) It's frustrating for the winning team to be "cheated" of that triumphant final assault - it's extremely satisfying to charge into the last hive, guns blazing as rings of destructive energy explode around alien chambers from the ASCs at your backs, mowing down skulks left and right with your HMG while the GLs unload on the hive. It's satisfying to follow an Onos into the MS as the turret factory finally goes down, tearing through structures and chuckling at the cries of marines futilely attempting to hold against the onslaught. Having the game suddenly *end* on you, then, is definitely frustrating.
Bad #2) Your armory has just finished upgrading and the Comm has just dropped the first round of HAs for your team. You suit up and head out, pasting an unprepared pair of gorges building at a node, guarded by a lone skulk. Or you finally get the resources for Onos and start tearing into an electrified node you've been avoiding all game, making short work of the two LA/LMGs who come to its "rescue." All of a sudden, you hear a dramatic chord and find yourself back in the readyroom, because the other team decided it was a lost cause simply because you teched faster than they did for the first 5-10 minutes. There hadn't even been a single major battle yet.
Those are both bad times to F4. NS is about memorable battles... if I had to pick the two most consistantly memorable moments of a game, they are (1) the first time the big guns come into play and (2) the final assault, the last stand. Cutting those out of the game by F4ing is (in case #1) bad form, and (#2) a quitter's attitude. You don't /kill yourself when you're the last man on your team in CS... you try to take as many of the other team down as you can before they finish you off. Don't F4 in NS just because you don't have the upper hand.
So when's it good to F4? When, as people have said, your team has no chance but the winning team can't "figure out" how to end the game. Or when the winning team is being lame. I was on an F4-disabled server when a pair of Onos decided to play respawn-devour... it's unfortunate, but I don't play on that server anymore because of that experience.
To server admins: don't lock F4, and don't auto-ban for F4'ing. Look at the situation first; each is unique.
if there's no ip and no marines on the map, the comm gets a big shiny red button
hopefully the marines will go for the red button instead of the f4 button
ps - the red button .... go figure it out <i>einstein</i> *wink* *wink*
"I didn't F4 i /quit!"
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"Satistfaction of killing off every last thing".... you people make me sick.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, if f4ing becomes a bannable offense, guess what people will do? The F4ers will leave the server entirely. Guess what? You've got rid of them. Now, next game you have half as many people or less who'll F4. And guess what happens at the end of the next game? Half as many or more F4 people again. Banning/kicking for f4 is the MOST LOGICAL idea ever. You people that want the other team to just sit there and watch the victory signs come up without finishing it off are sadistic. GET OVER THE FACT THAT THE GAME IS NOT JUST ABOUT YOU. It's annoying. It's a complete waste of emotion for the winning team. And most importantly, it's just a **** game. If I don't own 70% of the board in Monopoly, it doesn't bother me that the other people are kicking my bum... I mean I could make a comeback. It's depressing to sit there and have victory soured like this. Sticking it out is expected in professional games, but for some reason not in public games.
"It's not fair that we have to suffer being beat".... you people make me sick. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->