I agree, I see nearly 10x as many shotguns as HMGs. In fact, most games you never see HMG, just GL or shotgun.
The problem is that the only ranged attacks that are DECENT are hive 3 abilities. So no acid rocket, primal spikes, etc.
The shotgun needs like damage dropoff. Even down a huge hallway, one pellet does a lot of hurt.
I'd like to know what the counter to shotguns are. Skulks die in one hit, fades in 2, lerks in 2 MAX, onos in like 5 or something rediculous. Hives die in about 7 seconds. I thought Onos/Fades were supposed to be super-aliens, why does one of the cheapest, lowest-tech items slaughter them?
Today in 3 games the marines won by just dumping all their res into shotguns and going on an pwning spree.
They say "Give it 2 weeks". Well when commanders begin to get smart, they'll realize shotguns are the be-all-end-all answer to anything less then 3 hive aliens.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 6 2003, 03:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 6 2003, 03:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to know what the counter to shotguns are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lerks. They may die in two shots, but only at close range, and Lerks are long ranged.
Also, in your average NS map, there isn't much room for a lerk to fly around spiking crap or spamming spore without getting stuck somewhere and thusly, pwned.
HMGS are still way better than shotguns simply because they are more versatile. You arent killing anything with the shotgun unless they are right in your face.
They made the shotgun the way it is now, simply because I think it's supposed to be a mainstay assault weapon in the marine's arsenal.
HMGs still do more damage than shotguns overall, but because of the reduced clip size and 50% damage vs structures, the shotgun is a much better choice for killing buildings if you don't wanna use a GL....
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 6 2003, 03:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 6 2003, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Whip out a pistol = dead lerk.
Also, in your average NS map, there isn't much room for a lerk to fly around spiking crap or spamming spore without getting stuck somewhere and thusly, pwned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whatever you say, but I've had a lot of success as a Lerk against shotgunners.
2 HA with welders and shotguns vs. 2 hive alien team.
HA wins. Why? shotguns kills skulks up close instantly, kills gorges instantly, lerks are useless, fades are useless and die in 2 hits, and onos MIGHT be able to take one out, but if they kill him, won't be many more onoses fora while.
Shotguns should ONLY be a cheap counter to skulks, they should NOT be able to kill onoses and fades in less then 10 seconds, which they can and do quite often. Unless you want to give skulks xeno at 1 hive... that's basically what the shotgun is.
the counter to shotgun is sensory chambers and cloaked skulks getting behind them. Cloaked Onos devouring them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 6 2003, 04:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 6 2003, 04:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2) In beta right now, onos can't redeem when eating someone. This makes onos useless vs. HA. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Unless it has support. As it should.
I was just in a game where we were doing nothing but shotgun rush... we thought the aliens would adapt but it was successful 3 times in a row and we won each match in about 2 minutes... i mean i was appauled when i saw that 6-7 marines shooting at the hive with just 3 shells each destroyed it i mean... it was like we took it out in 30 seconds LITERALLY. It was insane, i mean we would usually use seige cannon and hmg rush on it and yet still SEIGES couldnt match the shotgun in strength..
Pluss if you do shotgun rush the aliens wouldnt have enough time to evolve into lerks so they are pretty much screwed we went in packs of shotguns... it was unstoppable seriously.
We lost the last game because they got mad and made the teams uneven by 6marines vs. 9 aliens and even then we came really close to taking them out and we decided to relocate which lasted about 1 hour or so...
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Boy Wonder+Aug 6 2003, 04:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boy Wonder @ Aug 6 2003, 04:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pluss if you do shotgun rush the aliens wouldnt have enough time to evolve into lerks so they are pretty much screwed we went in packs of shotguns... it was unstoppable seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> An alien only needs to gain 5 resource points in order to evolve to Lerk. If they didn't see the rush coming, they didn't scout well enough.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Yay! Now that the next powerful strat has been discovered, perhaps people will listen this time (as I've been SAYING to use shotguns against redemption-onii for.. a while now). Yes.. shotgunners are painful up close. So, how do you keep them at range, even at Hive One? Easy. One of the most neglected chambers at this point... the Offensive Chamber!
Yes, one or even two of these little guys, especially combined with a Sensory Chamber tucked away nearby, and maybe even an Umbra Lerk, will be *quite* painful against a shotgun rush. Add in a DC or adrenal healspray Gorge, and you've got a recipe for a dead-end... or at least a good delay until others of your team can show up and deal with the offenders.
And for those who doubt, I managed to hold off a FULL TEAM Marine shotty rush into Powersilo with just four of these great little chambers, and a couple of Movements nearby to recharge my spray. Yes, that's eight Marines held back by six total chambers and a single Gorge. Definitely an expensive proposition (not to mention labor-intensive for the Gorge), but quite worth it.
Pick your spots, use chokepoints, defend areas. Don't neglect them, or your 1-2 OCs will be wasted res, along with whatever or wherever they were defending. A shotty CAN whittle them down slowly from range, if you aren't there to heal up the 17-34 or so damage each time.
Its true shotgun does kill onos fast, however add a little 2hive lerk power in there, a gorge hiding behind the onos, and thats one dead squad, stop thinking about one on one situations.
If they havent got HA then lerk spikes will slaughter them, if they do, then its up to the lerk to support the more advanced lifeforms.
Shotguns are too effective for their cost at the moment. In practice, they're as lethal as HMGs for half the price. Sure, HMGs may be able to dish out more damage per clip or strike at a longer range, but remember that all aliens except the 3-hive fade must come point-blank in order to dish out significant damage (i.e. enough damage to kill a HA). And nothing short of a hive requires anywhere near 10 shells to bring down, so the combat damage output is essentially the same. Lerks are the biggest threat to a shotgunner, but the best counter to lerks is not the HMG but the GL.
So where does the HMG become ideal? Against un-umbra'd fades with acid rocket? Against lerks at medium range who don't stick around to umbra? Sounds like a rather niche category for something that costs 2x that of the shotty. Perhaps the shotgun cost should be increased to 15 and/or the ROF decreased slightly and/or make the Arms Lab a requirement to drop.
Try stopping 2 onos 3 gorge and a lerk assault force with this "overcostly" weapon, why are people still thinking of one on one situations. HMG is better at keeping lesser lifeforms at bay, GL causes confusion amoung them, and shotguns have instant, if not slower stopping power, everything in its place, HOWEVER some people simply cannot use the shotgun
The HMG, with its smaller clip and halved damage against structures, is clearly a support and defense weapon (although it's easier for some players to use as well). IMO, the HMG cone could do with being tightened slightly to emphasise its ranged advantage over the shotgun, as it still seems a bit spray 'n pray at long range.
By design, the shotgun is the marines' main assault weapon as it grinds through structures and aliens; however, a group of LA/shotgun will quickly find themselves defeated by lerks and OC's at range. HA/shotgun can be beaten by fades and lerks with hive 3 abilities, or by well coordinated onos attacks with gorge healspray spamming.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the most neglected chambers at this point... the Offensive Chamber!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, those chambers are the devil! i always get owned by them <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->half the price, no research, onos killer, insta skulk and lerk kill and it does more damage to structures am I right? :o<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you ever seen a close range lerk in 2.0!? no more bite remember?
Yep OCs are a pain to take out because they fire spikes now. Before you could just hide round a corner from an OC and shoot it without taking any damage at all, now to take out an OC you have to take considerable damage or have a group of marines take out even one.
my problem is I can never get the damn comm to drop me one. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
ME: Comm hey how about a shotty whenever you feel like it? *comm drops a ha* me: shotgun? *comm drops a HMG* me: :/ *comm drops 4 more turrets*
The shotgun is fine the way it is. Nearly all onos I've seen now get redemption as defense upgrade, and not even 2 shotgunners can take it out.
It's NIGH ON IMPOSSIBLE to kill an onos with redemption. Only way you'd do it is hide in the hive with a shotgun and wait for onos to redeem.....there's a cooldown for it, so you can cap him while he's waiting for his health to fill up and FREE a fellow HA with a GL and blow the hive to bits!
Okay, unlikely scenario <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but it really is near impossible to kill redemp onos with any weapon.
impossible to kill an redemption Onos <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->?? I think here we have another Rambo how tells us how hard it is to Kill an Onos if he is alone on his way <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> .
When i walk in a troop of 3 or 4 People Onos die damn quickly even with hmg. NS IS NOT CS. YOU HAVE TO WORK IN TEAMS AS ALIEN AND AS MARINE.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mr.KNifey+Aug 6 2003, 08:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.KNifey @ Aug 6 2003, 08:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They made the shotgun the way it is now, simply because I think it's supposed to be a mainstay assault weapon in the marine's arsenal.
HMGs still do more damage than shotguns overall, but because of the reduced clip size and 50% damage vs structures, the shotgun is a much better choice for killing buildings if you don't wanna use a GL....
I know, who WOULDN'T want to use a GL? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm, I wouldn't. Grenade Launcher makes you extremely vunerable to most enemies, unless you know the where and when of where they're coming from.
If you have good cover from tema-mates, fair enough, but this is sadly lacking in pub games. Give me a HMG or Shutgun anyday, but drop a GL on me, and I drop it ASAP and hope my LMG is still around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS IS NOT CS. YOU HAVE TO WORK IN TEAMS AS ALIEN AND AS MARINE<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm aware of that. It's just that, even with a combined arms squad with all sorts of guns, onos still redeems with a fair amount of health left.....
Comments
The problem is that the only ranged attacks that are DECENT are hive 3 abilities. So no acid rocket, primal spikes, etc.
The shotgun needs like damage dropoff. Even down a huge hallway, one pellet does a lot of hurt.
I'd like to know what the counter to shotguns are. Skulks die in one hit, fades in 2, lerks in 2 MAX, onos in like 5 or something rediculous. Hives die in about 7 seconds. I thought Onos/Fades were supposed to be super-aliens, why does one of the cheapest, lowest-tech items slaughter them?
Today in 3 games the marines won by just dumping all their res into shotguns and going on an pwning spree.
They say "Give it 2 weeks". Well when commanders begin to get smart, they'll realize shotguns are the be-all-end-all answer to anything less then 3 hive aliens.
Lerks. They may die in two shots, but only at close range, and Lerks are long ranged.
Also, in your average NS map, there isn't much room for a lerk to fly around spiking crap or spamming spore without getting stuck somewhere and thusly, pwned.
Turns to onos, stomp, devour and prays he redeems
HMGs still do more damage than shotguns overall, but because of the reduced clip size and 50% damage vs structures, the shotgun is a much better choice for killing buildings if you don't wanna use a GL....
I know, who WOULDN'T want to use a GL?
Also, in your average NS map, there isn't much room for a lerk to fly around spiking crap or spamming spore without getting stuck somewhere and thusly, pwned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whatever you say, but I've had a lot of success as a Lerk against shotgunners.
HA wins. Why? shotguns kills skulks up close instantly, kills gorges instantly, lerks are useless, fades are useless and die in 2 hits, and onos MIGHT be able to take one out, but if they kill him, won't be many more onoses fora while.
Shotguns should ONLY be a cheap counter to skulks, they should NOT be able to kill onoses and fades in less then 10 seconds, which they can and do quite often. Unless you want to give skulks xeno at 1 hive... that's basically what the shotgun is.
2) In beta right now, onos can't redeem when eating someone. This makes onos useless vs. HA.
Unless it has support. As it should.
Pluss if you do shotgun rush the aliens wouldnt have enough time to evolve into lerks so they are pretty much screwed we went in packs of shotguns... it was unstoppable seriously.
We lost the last game because they got mad and made the teams uneven by 6marines vs. 9 aliens and even then we came really close to taking them out and we decided to relocate which lasted about 1 hour or so...
An alien only needs to gain 5 resource points in order to evolve to Lerk. If they didn't see the rush coming, they didn't scout well enough.
Yes, one or even two of these little guys, especially combined with a Sensory Chamber tucked away nearby, and maybe even an Umbra Lerk, will be *quite* painful against a shotgun rush. Add in a DC or adrenal healspray Gorge, and you've got a recipe for a dead-end... or at least a good delay until others of your team can show up and deal with the offenders.
And for those who doubt, I managed to hold off a FULL TEAM Marine shotty rush into Powersilo with just four of these great little chambers, and a couple of Movements nearby to recharge my spray. Yes, that's eight Marines held back by six total chambers and a single Gorge. Definitely an expensive proposition (not to mention labor-intensive for the Gorge), but quite worth it.
Pick your spots, use chokepoints, defend areas. Don't neglect them, or your 1-2 OCs will be wasted res, along with whatever or wherever they were defending. A shotty CAN whittle them down slowly from range, if you aren't there to heal up the 17-34 or so damage each time.
If they havent got HA then lerk spikes will slaughter them, if they do, then its up to the lerk to support the more advanced lifeforms.
So where does the HMG become ideal? Against un-umbra'd fades with acid rocket? Against lerks at medium range who don't stick around to umbra? Sounds like a rather niche category for something that costs 2x that of the shotty. Perhaps the shotgun cost should be increased to 15 and/or the ROF decreased slightly and/or make the Arms Lab a requirement to drop.
By design, the shotgun is the marines' main assault weapon as it grinds through structures and aliens; however, a group of LA/shotgun will quickly find themselves defeated by lerks and OC's at range. HA/shotgun can be beaten by fades and lerks with hive 3 abilities, or by well coordinated onos attacks with gorge healspray spamming.
lol, those chambers are the devil! i always get owned by them <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->half the price, no research, onos killer, insta skulk and lerk kill and it does more damage to structures am I right? :o<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you ever seen a close range lerk in 2.0!?
no more bite remember?
2 shotgunners (20 res) can kill 1 onos (100) res in 4 shot.
and while it's quite easy to kill one shotgunner alone the chance of seeing 1 lone shotgunner is quite slim.
to fix this i'm not sure on a solution but raising the price 5 might help a bit but not enough.
ME: Comm hey how about a shotty whenever you feel like it?
*comm drops a ha*
me: shotgun?
*comm drops a HMG*
me: :/
*comm drops 4 more turrets*
etc. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
oh no shotguns are overpowered they kill an ono in 4 shots!
See where this is going?
It's NIGH ON IMPOSSIBLE to kill an onos with redemption. Only way you'd do it is hide in the hive with a shotgun and wait for onos to redeem.....there's a cooldown for it, so you can cap him while he's waiting for his health to fill up and FREE a fellow HA with a GL and blow the hive to bits!
Okay, unlikely scenario <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but it really is near impossible to kill redemp onos with any weapon.
I think here we have another Rambo how tells us how hard it is to Kill an Onos if he is alone on his way <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> .
When i walk in a troop of 3 or 4 People Onos die damn quickly even with hmg.
NS IS NOT CS. YOU HAVE TO WORK IN TEAMS AS ALIEN AND AS MARINE.
HMGs still do more damage than shotguns overall, but because of the reduced clip size and 50% damage vs structures, the shotgun is a much better choice for killing buildings if you don't wanna use a GL....
I know, who WOULDN'T want to use a GL? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm, I wouldn't. Grenade Launcher makes you extremely vunerable to most enemies, unless you know the where and when of where they're coming from.
If you have good cover from tema-mates, fair enough, but this is sadly lacking in pub games. Give me a HMG or Shutgun anyday, but drop a GL on me, and I drop it ASAP and hope my LMG is still around.
stop moaning less than 2 weeks into the release.
TRY stuff for a good month first.
distinct lack of objective analysis from you ppl atm :PPPPPPPPPP
/EOTM
[end of troll mode]
I'm aware of that. It's just that, even with a combined arms squad with all sorts of guns, onos still redeems with a fair amount of health left.....