Turret Farm Of Terror

SoulSlayerSoulSlayer Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18881Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Big Farm on Caged</div> While I agree that the scale of the balance issues will take several weeks to fully ascertain, I do have an immediate observation.

The turrets in 2.0 have been raised to an insane level of accuracy on both alien and marine sides, something I feel was strongly warranted. I don't know how many alien or marine turrets I'd snipe from around a corner without being fired upon.

With that said....

The setup:
I encountered a game on NS_Caged that lasted over 100 minutes PAST the point where the game was decided. The aliens had contained the marine's and allowed them no egress from marine start (vent was welded and aliens were camping exits to sewer and generator.) The aliens had secured every res node except for marine start and had constructed every hive and at least 3 of every upgrade structure. The marine base was occupied by no less than seven marines and one commander versus eight or nine aliens. The base had an observatory close to its exit but still shielded by walls which negated cloaking within a reasonable distance from the start zone. Additionally, sieges were placed near the exterior perimeter of the base to prevent battle gorging or close healing stations. Marines had full upgrades and several had HA. Their base had no less than 15 turrets in it.

The dilemma:
With the marines recognizing their fate they were hesitant to leave their base and hoarded their gear. They made several attempts to leave base when they were fully armed to no avail as they left the comfort of the turrets they were all devoured. That said, it was next to impossible to enter their base as an onos. You couldn't even get close to a turret with carapace and celerity. With all 15 turrets trained on you their kill rate is astonishing. A lerk flying by the opening to umbra was immediately destroyed by the turrets. What should you do in this instance? The game lasted until I couldn't take it anymore and left. The aliens were defeated by a stalemate worse than any in 1.04.

What's the strategy to try and coordinate amongst the aliens.

It's too far to bile bomb and the gorges get rocked.
You can't onos it.
Fades got owned by GLs.

Try it watch how long you can keep the aliens at bay...
This is probably not a strategy the vets and playtesters tried very often as turret farming is mainly a pub activity.

With kind regards,
SoulSlayer
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Comments

  • BattleTechBattleTech Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4137Members
    edited August 2003
    Just because the marine's may be stalemating doesn't mean your team can't F4.
    You know your team has won, and that the marine's were just prolonging the game.
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Cry me a river, Tonzak.
  • TonzakTonzak Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9951Members
    edited August 2003
    For example.

    He's only asking for help, yet his topic is locked:
    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=40930' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=40930</a>

    edit: I had a post above that has mysteriously disappeared. I like it when admins delete my posts and I have no way of knowing who did it or why.
  • MonkeybonkMonkeybonk Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18859Banned
    edited August 2003
    They really like locking topics here. I just joined and I've already seen 8+ locked topics. Whatever happened to free discussion? (No, not free speech, but this is a forum. The point is to talk to other people. How can we do that when 50% of all topics are considered 'bad' and are locked right away?
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 4 2003, 11:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 4 2003, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They really like locking topics here. I just joined and I've already seen 8+ locked topics. Whatever happened to free discussion? (No, not free speech, but this is a forum. The point is to talk to other people. How can we do that when 50% of all topics are considered 'bad' and are locked right away? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    We have a large influx of new players, and a lot of old players who are still adjusting to 2.0. There are a lot of repeat topics, a lot of flame-filled topics, and a lot of topics about "balancing" a game that no one really knows how to play yet. We're trying to keep the redundancy, flaming, and whining to a minimum until people have time to really sink their teeth into 2.0.
  • TonzakTonzak Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9951Members
    The thought police are only locking deliquent posts inconsistent with the one true doctrine. They're saving us all some time by forbidding any discussion of that sort. Since we already know the one truth, discussing is just a waste of time and obviously evil.

    Discussing is suspended until everyone agrees that 2.0 is perfect.
  • WitznerWitzner Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18373Members
    edited August 2003
    Not to be mean or anything, but I'm only saying what everyone else is thinking...

    Tonzak, you strike me as an idiot. Someone who intentionally seeks ways to be a victim, so you can gripe about it. I'm surprised the admins are being as patient as they are by <b>explaining</b>, with perfect logic, why they are locking all these threads and discouraging discussion <b>for the moment</b>. Grow up and do something constructive, such as taking time to understand 2.0 and its balance, if you're going to post.




    <i>Edit: minor spelling problem</i>.
  • TonzakTonzak Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9951Members
    I invite a clan to play marines and defeat a good alien clan to show us the balance. I invite you to any server where there's enough aliens who work together at all to guarantee a 7+ node advantage until they end the game once the 2nd hive is up. Please defeat these strategies so we can see the balance.
  • WitznerWitzner Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18373Members
    I may be mistaken, but isn't that exactly what happened for weeks and months during playtesting?
  • TonzakTonzak Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9951Members
    I'd like to see THOSE players play the people who complain about balance NOW.
  • NicatorNicator Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10829Members
    And I'd like it if the crying would stop for a few days. Looks like we're both going to be disappointed.
  • TwexTwex Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4999Members
    Tonzak is merely following the predetermined evolutionary path.

    The Jaded Cynic is the Level-3 mutation available to NS forum members
  • TonzakTonzak Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9951Members
    Don't worry, the admins are working overtime to hide all "crying" from public view.
  • EpidemicEpidemic Dark Force Gorge Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17781Members
    edited August 2003
    He was telling you his experience and asked for a little help, and what did you do? locked his topic. I think the mod's growing intolerant and too eager to lock a thread with just a tiny bit of disagreement (no offense)
  • TwexTwex Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4999Members
    edited August 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't worry, the admins are working overtime to hide all "crying" from public view. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Of course they are. That's <i>their</i> path. Don't worry, you will soon be ready to evolve to Level 4: Disconnected Commentator.
  • SeikedenSeikeden Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5443Members
    what is this crap. I hope you all get banned whiners. :Q

    p.s. use teh search feature and you may discover the 10+ threads on whatever you're whinging about this time etc. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->


    also-- after being stuck at caged a few times with 3 hives and a turret farm in marine start I've found a good tactic is to use the recommended strategy of onos+lerk+gorge AND have 1 fade at each corner of the room acid rocketing the marine turrets. they really cant withstand an assault like that for more than fifteen minutes to half an hour.. the fades can shoot basically the whole base from those corners so its not so bad.
  • SoulSlayerSoulSlayer Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18881Members, Constellation
    I think some over-zealous "people" have mistaken my post. I'm simply asking the active community (I'm assuming most pubbers don't read the boards) how to counter the marine start turret farm. I certainly think changing balance issues at this point is hasty to say the least. The community of servers would be fragmented by frequent patches so I think we need to iron out a number of issues in how we play the game before any patches can be developed, if one is at all required.

    As for:
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just because the marine's may be stalemating doesn't mean your team can't F4.
    You know your team has won, and that the marine's were just prolonging the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I thought one of the points of 2.0 was to get rid of the marine stalemate when they relocated to a hive. With the scenario illustrated in my post they haven't locked down any hives and we've reached a deadlock. F4ing is not supposed to be an endgame strategy.

    SoulSlayer
  • MintmanMintman Join Date: 2003-05-30 Member: 16866Members
    Though I haven't actually tried this it should work. You want to set up a bunch of gorges with adrenaline and carapace. Then get them to come from both doors, and bile bomb the res node. This gives you 90 secs minimum where the marines have no income. Rinse and repeat, taking out turrets as you go. As one turret takes about 3 bile bombs to remove, 3 gorges shooting same turret means instant turret removal (more or less).

    And what is the essence of this game ending move? Teamwork! Now we don't want that sort of thing do we now. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • SeikedenSeikeden Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5443Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--SoulSlayer+Aug 4 2003, 04:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSlayer @ Aug 4 2003, 04:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think some over-zealous "people" have mistaken my post. I'm simply asking the active community (I'm assuming most pubbers don't read the boards) how to counter the marine start turret farm. I certainly think changing balance issues at this point is hasty to say the least. The community of servers would be fragmented by frequent patches so I think we need to iron out a number of issues in how we play the game before any patches can be developed, if one is at all required.

    As for:
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just because the marine's may be stalemating doesn't mean your team can't F4.
    You know your team has won, and that the marine's were just prolonging the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I thought one of the points of 2.0 was to get rid of the marine stalemate when they relocated to a hive. With the scenario illustrated in my post they haven't locked down any hives and we've reached a deadlock. F4ing is not supposed to be an endgame strategy.

    SoulSlayer <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    remember the search feature? you didnt use it did you?

    been there, discussed that etc. etc. Its been said and argued that this is a problem and no amount of additional procrastination will help. *goes gorge and taunts soulslayer with lewd bumdancing* <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • SoulSlayerSoulSlayer Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18881Members, Constellation
    While I think about it... I think many of us may be willing to agree that assuming a team of aliens has actively locked the marine team into marine start the game should be able to be brought to conclusion by one or two skilled players. This should remain true even if the rest of the alien team just camped outside of their base. Getting an alien team to make a mass coordinated attack on a pub server is difficult. The goal at the point of my original post is just to bring the game to an end to start the next map.

    I assume that in non-tournament mode the "intended" game dynamics don't dictate that every person on a team must be skilled to win? Change the rules however you may for tournaments but I think on average non-tournament games should assume highly mixed skill levels. Please note however, the team clearly exhibited enough team work to gain all hives and resource nodes. Getting people to run to an assured death is a different story when they've gestated to a beloved onos.

    Cheers,
    SoulSlayer
  • SeikedenSeikeden Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5443Members
    why?
    theres nothing else to do.. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    3-hive aliens have some fairly potent weapons. With fireable Umbra, lerks can lay down cover for other aliens while keeping their fragile selves away from the front lines. Webs to immobilize defending marines, Bile Bomb and Acid Rocket from around corners to whittle down defenses. Carapaced, celerity skulks can also be used to Xenocide against the defenses, but timing is key.

    I agree it's an unpleasant scenario; the underlying problem is allowing a marine team to build up resources to begin with without making a concerted attack. As players get better at working as a team, games like this will end before the marines even have time to set up turret farms.
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Thanks Coil.

    I too agree- you must have teamwork to do this. As the guy before said- 3 gorges bile bomb. Have 1 lerk for umbra. Tada.

    Just needs teamwork. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • bigbadbunnybigbadbunny Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7142Members
    take 8 skulks and bomb them 2 hell .

    do it as a complete team 4 or 5 times and see whats left of the marinebase .......
  • SoulSlayerSoulSlayer Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18881Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--coil+Aug 4 2003, 11:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Aug 4 2003, 11:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As players get better at working as a team, games like this will end before the marines even have time to set up turret farms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Great point. I will admit the game started in an untraditional manner where only 6 people were playing total. This allowed the marines to get more res than is normally allowed.

    I think the consensus is to have some fades just keep nuking the marine start around the corners and running from grenades. I've also seen some interesting posts saying 3 bile bomb hits will take out a turret. I certainly plan to research this as maybe we should have had more gorges running to their deaths rather than onos. The fact that skulks had a tough time getting near the towers to xeno them was disheartening but possibly a key learning is that we should save xeno for the heavies rather than the buildings as we did in 1.04.

    Thanks for the advice,
    SoulSlayer
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Bile bomb is the missing key in a lot of cases - people don't realize that the *gorge* is the aliens' new siege unit. (:
  • MonkeybonkMonkeybonk Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18859Banned
    The problem with gorge is the bilebomb has the range of a thrown boulder.
  • SoulSlayerSoulSlayer Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18881Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 4 2003, 11:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 4 2003, 11:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem with gorge is the bilebomb has the range of a thrown boulder. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm not sure that's a problem.

    I think it acts as a detterent to a gorge soloing an outpost. The gorge needs somebody to get his or her back while they get in close enough to nuke the outpost.

    SoulSlayer
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    *twitch* y'all should have seen the earlier playtest builds - Bile Bomb acted like Acid Rocket, no arc. It was absolute murder - you could take out a marine base from halfway across the map if you had line-of-sight.
  • EpidemicEpidemic Dark Force Gorge Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17781Members
    Bilebomb does 200 dmg ( I think), wastes energy like no tomorrow, while having an extremely short radius. If the enemy has siege, it will be dragged out..
    Anyway, when I first started to play 2.0 I thought fades and onos were soo fragile, but I have actually learned to use them and now only getting killed in lag spikes <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
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