2 Gorges Slower My @$$

Lt_HendricksonLt_Hendrickson Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members
<div class="IPBDescription">If I calculated this right.</div> I spent a bit of time calculating this but on a 6 on 6 games if you were to have to gorges gorge when they hit 13 res and have one gorge ungorge sometime after dropping his second res tower while other saves for hive you can get: 5 res towers (includes start), 3 DCs , and a hive up and aproxiatly 99.5% give or take a percent of the time it takes 2 gorge. Basically thier the same time things like running to a tower far away or skulks dying rate will affect you more. This takes all into consideration except build time which is increases with two gorges. O and only other calculation mistake i made that i can think of is i forgot to compensate for non gorge res intake during evolving. Also times can be affected by amount of time teamate skulks spent dead or spend on upgrades.
Most peeps dont usually cap 4 res nodes first either but the gorges ability to cap 2 or 3 nodes faster does make up for the fact their two gorges.
So if a second gorge goes on your team don't whine thats the reason you lost. you lost cause you suck or the other team was just better.
2 gorges does mean 1 less fighter which is only affected is your skulks dont die alot.
2 gorges means 1 backup gorge
This post means nothing and im depressed cuase res system getting changed over soon anyways.
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Comments

  • kavasakavasa Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11889Members, Constellation
    Just like everything else, it depends. If you're playing against a cautious, methodical commander, you'll want one gorge and a 2nd hive as fast as possible. If you're playing against a comm that's got his guys everywhere killing your RTs and shooting for jp/hmg asap, you might want two gorges. Then one sits in the hive, babies it, builds DCs, etc., while the other gets resources and the second hive. I mean other than rushing their base and eating their alab or proto, you can't stop a hamgee/jp rush, so the only other option is to be prepared for it.

    There are solutions that obtain <i>most</i> of the time, but to every strategy there is a counter and yes: 2 gorges is one of the available counters.

    But hey. If you want to froth at the mouth and claim that the same thing ALWAYS ALWAYS WORKS ARRR UAGLGLHLL, feel free.

    -K
  • AIRinc_FaReZAIRinc_FaReZ Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14763Members
    the same thing ALWAYS ALWAYS WORKS ARRR UAGLGLHLL
  • Alien_BobAlien_Bob Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8185Members
    Two gorges working together can be quite good, as one can drop a res tower and then they can both build it. This sort of thing is only any good if both gorges know what they're doing and stick together.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    edited April 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+Apr 21 2003, 08:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Apr 21 2003, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just like everything else, it depends.  If you're playing against a cautious, methodical commander, you'll want one gorge and a 2nd hive as fast as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Someone said that it's been tested, and you can get up the 2nd hive 10 seconds faster with 2 gorges.
    EDIT: same guy said that 3 gorges makes the economy break down totally tho, not very specific.
  • DiablusDiablus Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15080Members
    2 gorges in a small game like a 6v6 is really only good w/ 2 gorges in beginnng because u all get res faster due to less aliens but in a big game its not really recomended by me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> also a kick **** strat is not having any1 go gorge till u get 33 res yes i know it sounds stupid but it actually works and u get the hives and res towers up in notime <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • sejsej Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12488Members
    "Babying" the hive.

    I like that.
  • FeydToBlackFeydToBlack Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13079Members
    This especially helps if you need a gorge in 2 places at once. The two gorges can set up a half assed defense at the new hive, then one can go back to defend the first one while the other saves/builds the 2nd hive and completes the defenses for that one.

    But, yah. I wouldnt suggest this for servers with <8 ppl per team, otherwise it takes away one of those valuable skulks.
  • That_Annoying_KidThat_Annoying_Kid Sire of Titles Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14175Members, Constellation
    two gorges is viable, however I recall someone saying that it only helps get a second hive up by 10 seconds, and if the two gorges don't know what to do and how to do it in tandem then it can be disastirous for the Aliens.
  • FirewaterFirewater Balance Expert Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10690Members, Constellation
    its not only about getting the second hive up, its also about capping RTs and building a particular chamber as fast as possible. One gorge can save, and the other can cap RT and build chambers. A lot of people dont listen to me when i say after the first RT is up its ok to have a second gorge. Even if is slower (which it is not), things would still be faster because one gorge would have to cap an RT, run back and build 3 chambers, then run out again and cap some more RTs and save for hive. Where as the first gorge can build an RT, the other gorge can either cap an RT or drop the chambers first, doesnt really matter, and the first gorge can save for the hive. Doing two things at once is a lot better than doing one thing at a time.
  • OptikalOptikal Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13583Members, Constellation
    Yes I luv 2 gorges (skilled) because it is sooo much faster. I usually get yelled at saying im a noob for having a 2nd gorge etc because that is what noobies are used to when they join NS that there should only be 1 gorge. That is just an easy way to say never ever go gorge u d*** n00b. Anyways yea I broke out the 2 gorge strat at beginning of 1.04 my clannies and I ran around capping every RT unrivaled even by a couple of marines. 2 gorges can be surprisingly strong against ambushes. HIYA!!!
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    2 gorges = one less skulk, which really the only point I don't like.
  • Lt_HendricksonLt_Hendrickson Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Optikal+Apr 21 2003, 04:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Optikal @ Apr 21 2003, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I usually get yelled at saying im a noob for having a 2nd gorge etc because that is what noobies are used to when they join NS that there should only be 1 gorge. That is just an easy way to say never ever go gorge u d*** n00b. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thats exactly why i thought id point that out. Too many peeps use 2 gorges as an excuse for losing.
    I personnally prefer the extra skulk still.
  • ChuchumanquiqChuchumanquiq Join Date: 2003-04-16 Member: 15560Members
    problem is... that if the gorge saving up for the hive dies... it will be slower because that res gets split up
  • laggerlagger Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--FireWater+Apr 21 2003, 07:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireWater @ Apr 21 2003, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its not only about getting the second hive up, its also about capping RTs and building a particular chamber as fast as possible. One gorge can save, and the other can cap RT and build chambers. A lot of people dont listen to me when i say after the first RT is up its ok to have a second gorge. Even if is slower (which it is not), things would still be faster because one gorge would have to cap an RT, run back and build 3 chambers, then run out again and cap some more RTs and save for hive. Where as the first gorge can build an RT, the other gorge can either cap an RT or drop the chambers first, doesnt really matter, and the first gorge can save for the hive. Doing two things at once is a lot better than doing one thing at a time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Omg love the fatteh's!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Lt_HendricksonLt_Hendrickson Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members
    Another thing i like doing is having 0 gorges after second hive finishes building or even earlier but after second hive is places. Res over flow or less gorges = fades sooner. Can only do this is you dont need gorge support.
  • OldManRipper-nCOldManRipper-nC Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13871Members
    Two gorges works quite well. Typically when my friend and I gorge together one of us will build three defence chambers under our start hive (note: we never split up, we always stick together for the increased build time) while the other gorge saves for resources. The extra carapace early more than compensates for the missing skulk and you already have started saving for the hive. The best part is that two gorges with healspray can take on up to two rambo marines head to head. With one offense chamber they can take up to three. With two offense chambers they can take about 5 or 6 marines (must have carapace and know how to jump). Essentially, don't flame the next person who double gorges. Rather, spread your wisdom and get them organized and working together for the greater Kharaa good.

    -OldManRipper
  • AIRinc_FaReZAIRinc_FaReZ Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14763Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Lt. Hendrickson+Apr 22 2003, 11:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ Apr 22 2003, 11:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another thing i like doing is having 0 gorges after second hive finishes building or even earlier but after second hive is places. Res over flow or less gorges = fades sooner. Can only do this is you dont need gorge support. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This may be viable but i dont really feel comfortable about having no gorges at any given period of time. When the second hive is building, the gorge should be capping one more RT and building defences at the second hive, so when the second hive goes up, he has enough for movements and defence for the first hive.
  • leekleek Join Date: 2003-02-03 Member: 13042Members
    once 2nd hive is building if u have 2 gorges and those 2 gorges are getting enough res to drop a chamber build it and be at > 14 res before it built then 2 gorges are viable
  • 2Moronic2Moronic Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15268Members
    Having two gorgs in the beginning is worth it only if your team can handle the initial handycap of having one less person to be on the offensive. It might be wise initially to have one gorg at first to handle alot of the key contruction of res nods and def chams as well as the hive. Once your skulks reach 33 res it really doesn't matter if they die or not so long as if they dont use res to evolve for carp or anything like that too often. Once they reach the magic number 33, everything else should overflow to the single gorg which should bring the hive up faster as well as provide essencial chambers for defenses and for upgrade evolutions. If a second gorg is around then all the res must split between the two competing gorgs, this if true is not helpful when bringing up that second most important hive which usually determines the game.

    Having two gorgs more often than not is attributed to in-experienced players who just gorg and do nothing that helps anyone. Noobs gorging because they see it as something they haven't tried yet. Sadly they do it in the beginning of the start game when the start gorg is the most key important role that has to be filled with someone who knows what they are doing. Seeing that "other" gorg building off chams in remote spots of the map which has nothing to do for hive defense or even rt defenses, building and wasting res when its needed the most. Or a gorg which builds off chams FIRST in the main hive instead of def chams first. Off chams are not important in the main hive until a little later or unless your own team can't even keep the main hive alive. Now, your own skul team must beable to keep a hive clear for the gorg, clear any stray marine rts if possible because even one stray rt is quite a bit to the marines, they also must beable to hold the main hive. If your skulks can't do even one of these even with carp, then no matter how good a gorg you are. Your team is doomed... Fact, if your good at skulking you shouldn't be a gorg if possible, you would be more helpful to the team being a skulk. I know, being the gorg is much more fun in some ways than being a skulk. But, watching your team dying relentlessly accomplishing nothing really doesn't hold much fun when your limited to your team. Marines will take both hives and that leaves you with hardly anything to do except wait for the onslaught. The bottom line is, your team sucks and your not going to win if your players are not even half-way decent...

    Just brings up horrible memory of two gorgs who where jumping around on each other trying to shoot each other doing nothing for around 2 or 3 mins. Finally, one team-mate asks what they were doing and they responded. "We have no idea what we are doing..." What made it even worse was the fact that they didn't even know the map(tanith), to compound it even more... BOTH had no idea how to set a res nod... Of course, they both got flamed and our team's moral went low... Luckily, our team had the best players on the aliens side and we kept the marines from leaving the base. So one of the team was directing the gorgs to rt points and slowly taking the map as well as instructing them on how to set things and stuff... It wasn't extremely hard to win but it did take around 25-30 minutes until they put up the second hive... Now, that was a good learning experience for those two people there who had the benefit of having the stacked team on their side. But, that game could have easily went sour if the marines had just a notch higher on the type of players they had...
  • civman2civman2 Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6116Members, Constellation
    Its not about the second hive.

    There is no way you can have that hive defended enough in 7 minutes that a JP HMGer can't take it out.

    You have to defend your first hive (often with several OCs) and then get a ton of res that you take to the next hive where you build OCs and DCs and then the hive.

    It's all about not losing the first hive before you have the second.
  • 2Moronic2Moronic Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15268Members
    Not about the second hive?

    I think it really is about getting that second hive as quickly as you can. Getting the most versitile unit for the aliens is perhaps the most important thing in order for the aliens to have an easier time, as well as umbra.

    I think civman your plan is very risky unless your skulk team can hold them back that long for you to build defenses and rts in that amount of time. I could be wrong though which is not the first or last time.
  • Alias20Alias20 Join Date: 2003-04-05 Member: 15212Members
    The game comes down to a race between the aliens getting the second hive and the marines either getting JP/HMGs in enough force to kill a hive or HA/Lev 3 Weaps to decimate skulks. If a gorge is spending res building up O towers in the original hive, they're putting the alien team behind economically and giving the marines more time to build up a tech lead. Gorges need to focus on capping res nodes and building D chambers to keep up with weapon upgrades, with the ultimate objective of getting a second hive up as soon as possible. Gorges simply cannot afford to waste res in the early game.

    The aliens should never need o towers in the original hive, just like marines should never need a TF in marine start in the early game. You have skulks to provide base defense. In fact, the aliens should be keeping the marines bottled up in their marine start and confined to one RP. That way the marines can't even get to your hive in the first place. It also gives your gorges free reign over the entire map, allowing them to build the second hive unmolseted.

    Two gorges is more effective on some maps than others. Nothing is a good example of where two gorges can be helpful, since there are a bunch of resource nodes scattered about that two gorges can cap faster than one. On other smaller maps having an extra skulk running around will be more useful.

    I also agree that if you're good at skulking, you shouldn't go gorge. Honestly, learning how to gorge is pretty easy. Being able to take down two or even three marines per death as a skulk is much more difficult, and much more useful to your team.

    Cheers,
    Alias20
  • SeikedenSeikeden Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5443Members
    edited April 2003
    The thing I don't understand about this tactic is that, IF you're tech/res rushing with one gorge, generally going flat out you still have to wait around a while in between res towers before you can build them. so... your resources are bewing used at their maximum efficiency? another gorge will help IF you go at the right time IF you cooperate, and you lose a skulk. For a small advantage this seems like a strange tactic.


    Note: When i'm the one gorge with a decent skulk team, 3-4 res towers go up, then depending on ter situation, theres usually enough time (cos i got no res <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) to run back to the hive and by the time i get there drop 3 dcs immediately, then can stick around or grab another res/hive. Where does a second gorge fit into this? Only if I get killed or blocked by marines, and then I make it fairly clear to the team what the situation is. Of course if the marines go nuts this can all change <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->. :/

    oh yeah, and once the second hive is building I usually have 4-5 res capped and plenty for everyone <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Pika-CthulhuPika-Cthulhu Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9386Members
    Hrmmm, the way I see two gorges working together is, they stick together, and both build the same res node at the same time, one drops it, both build, by the time they arrive at the second one, the other gorge should have enough res to drop a res tower, they both build (its up in half the time, and they always have a reserve of res to drop one) so if this is how its done, when and where do the defence chambers get built?
  • AIRinc_FaReZAIRinc_FaReZ Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14763Members
    Um, when the Gorges feel like it?
  • 2Moronic2Moronic Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15268Members
    The gorg really should drop the def cham after he lays his first rt. Looking at the ver 1.04 table a skul can survive quite a bit of punishment on level 1 than on level 0, around 3 or 4 shots more but those few shots really do make the difference in many occasions.

    One thing, I notice is that skulk teams dont on a large basis hunt down rt points. The alien team should always be wary of a commander who likes to take rt points. Periodically and methodically search the rt points around the map, you dont want that rt to be up more than it is worth. Marines live on res and depriving them of res and forcing them to live on only one makes it VERY hard to get upgrades and any weapons.

    If there are marines guarding places like atmospheric in bast, DO NOT go after the marines first because they will usually just shoot you from that length away. If there is a length between you and the marines that give the marines ample time to shoot you down then don't bother with charging in on them. Places like bast is notorious for skulks losing Atmospheric. So what do you do? The marines are protecting the rt nodes there far far away on that platform ready to shoot you skulks comming from the feed water area. You do want to kill them, but remember that should NOT be your main objective. Instead, your target should be the rt nods there. Attack them first and if possible knock them out. You can get sufficient protection from the weapon fire by just staying behind the rt nodes chomping away at them. Another added plus is that since the marines can't kill you while your behind that rt, you force them to give up the advantage of distance. They have two choices, they can either stay back and allow you to complete your objective of taking down the rt, or they go in closer to kill you before you take the rt out. Either way, everything is in your favor. Marines aren't the only targets on the field you know... rts are much more important than taking out marines, MUCH more important.
  • Alias20Alias20 Join Date: 2003-04-05 Member: 15212Members
    The benefit of only having one gorge is that your fellow skulks will cap out at 33 res much sooner than if you had two. Once this happens the gorge can start taking in the overflow. Unfortunately, once someone decides to go lerk you lose some of this benefit.

    A good place to drop that first d chamber is in the hive you plan on moving to next. Skulks defending that area can head back to that chamber for healing when the gorge is off getting res nodes. The next two chambers should be placed under the original hive. Marine rushes are becoming more common, and hives heal by themselves very slowly. This can help your team withstand that first JP rush.

    When to place the d chambers depends on how well your team is doing, and how quickly the marines are taking in resources. If they can expand enough they will start to get weapon upgrades, making cara all the more essential. Generally, if the marines have secured a hive or a resource heavy area the d chambers should go up soon. If your skulks can keep them confined to marine start the second hive would be more useful.

    Cheers,
    Alias20
  • AIRinc_FaReZAIRinc_FaReZ Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14763Members
    Actually, a BAD place to drop your first DC is in the hive youre getting next. Why? Simple. Any good marine team would send out scouts to each of the empty hives right at the start. If youre caught off guard and actually die because backup didnt come fast enough etc etc, you stand the risk of losing your first DC, which is bad. Also, marines tend to attack the first hive anyways, so building DCs there is vgood.
  • Lt_HendricksonLt_Hendrickson Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Alias20+Apr 26 2003, 05:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alias20 @ Apr 26 2003, 05:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The benefit of only having one gorge is that your fellow skulks will cap out at 33 res much sooner than if you had two. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    They wont cap out that much sooner.
  • AIRinc_FaReZAIRinc_FaReZ Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14763Members
    Yes they will. Much faster than with 2 Gorges.
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