Why Organized Ns Play Needs Help

AyatollahAyatollah Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
<div class="IPBDescription">This one's for Grendel</div> I posted this earlier under "basing your strategies around a jetpack rush", but I felt that I brought up issues that addressed the game in general.

Although this topic has probably been beat into the ground (and no, i didn't read all the posts, so apologies in advance for repeating), I'd just like to chip in.

I agree very strongly with Grendel. There's a difference between an effective strat and THE effective strat. From my observation, the marine (and possibly jp) rush is THE tactic of choice. There is no alternative that matches the JP rush in speed, resource efficiency, and combat effectiveness.

The problem arises when the JP rush is THE tactic. There is not a huge amount of strategy behind it. So you have to hide your res nozzles? The aliens have to defend against your rush, or they get spawn camped for the loss. Which means they need EVERYONE with them. Which means (with earlygame marine firepower) you can have one marine running around the map capping with impunity.

This, more or less, turns natural-selection clan matches into an FPS game more than an RTS game. The game, in pubs, is SO much more fun. You have to account for more conservative strategies, since you can't rely on everyone to have unerring shots. Anyways, I'm getting off topic.

What is the counter to the marine rush in clan games? With the long alien spawn time, with unupgraded guns being able to take down a skulk in 9(?) shots, and with (essentially) one spawn point, even one halfskilled marine can get away with camping spawns for a while. The aliens just lack the means to counter this early strategy.

What we have here a severe departure from the intended RTS aspect of the game. Instead of the epic flanking manuevers and unexpected sieges, we have rush rush rush rush. I've rarely seen or even heard of a scrim/match that's gone past a first hive. I believe the NS team should work to correct the disparity between the two modes (pub/clan) of play, before everyone who learns the game learns it under the marine rush. Even pub play in CS could remotely resemble clan play.

-Ayatollah
ns.astimulus.com

Comments

  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    edited March 2003
    I agree. The marine midgame just sucks under 1.1 on most maps, so no clan is willing to let the aliens get two hives. I disagree with opinion of how unupgraded guns are too powerful, because they're SUPPOSED to be advantageous to the marines early game. The aliens are supposed to work togetehr and ambush (that's wat hive site is for) to kill marines. The respawn time DOES need to be addressed I agree, as does the resource model.

    Edit: 1.1 should be changed 1.04
  • Sifo25Sifo25 Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12890Members
    Sorry, I have to ask. Did you mean it sucks under 1.04, not 1.1? If not, are you allowed to elaborate on 1.1? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Sifo
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    It is my opinion that it is not possible to balance a mod for both competitive play and pub play without seperate play modes. The level of teamwork in competitive play is so much higher that balancing the game for it would mean that pubs, which can almost never reach the same level, would suffer greatly. Most pub games look like a chinese fire drill. In counter point, balancing the game for pub play would make the game a little too simple for organised play. I would be greatly impressed if the Dev team could pull it off with out 2 play modes. The teamwork required for this game is it's greatest attraction for me. I wouldn't want to see any changes that would reduce it. The only problem I can see with 2 play modes is that "professional" players will be rather dominant on pubs, being used to the more restrictive environment, but aren't they already?
  • USCMLieutenant_RipleyUSCMLieutenant_Ripley Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9818Members
    The insistance that 2 modes of play are necessary is really starting to irk. The modes already exists; FF on and off. The differences are staggering. To say there have to be more pervasive gameplay changes between match and pub play is really rather silly. There would be no point in dividing the game into 2 distinct types of play (because that's what is being suggested) - other than to fragment the community and server distribution I guess. That's not a worthwhile goal and would not change the fact that all servers settle into a statistical normative gameplay timeline. It's not about skill, it's about sociological rythms. Optimizing "pub play for x y z" will just make "Strat A" a pub server favorite while optimizing "match play for s t u" will make "Strat B" the best choice. You gain nothing, other than the extra work of having to maintain 2 sets of data for balance. Who's gonna do that?
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    There already are 2 play modes, reg and tournament. My point is what is balanced in a game with near perfect teamwork, will not be balanced on pubs where good teamwork is not often seen. I wish that one playmode would be all we need, but it has been my experience that balanceing any game so that competitive play is just that, competitive, means that pub play needs the same kind of teamwork to have similar results. The oppisite is also true. It's a fine line to walk to create a game that is viable in both circumstances. I wish the dev team all the luck in the world.
  • AshkajioniAshkajioni Ashkajioni Join Date: 2003-02-25 Member: 13995Members
    Well private servers can always change things for themselfs, they run the show. Pub servers will probably always be plauged by 'rambos'. I think the main problem in pub servers is the lack of good gorges/commanders. Ive seen pub games where the marine team realy did click. Worked together, all that good stuff. And i realy think the commander has alot to do with it. I know when i see a commander fumbling, even i get urges to say 'this game is going no where' and start ramboing.
  • AyatollahAyatollah Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
    The problem isn't with clans having teamwork. The problem is with teamwork comes absolute marine domination. In match games, given equally skilled teams, the marines just have one foolproof strategy.

    And organized marine teams usually dont' get ambushed. Even IF they do, the losses do not consist of the whole team, and bunnyhopping (another gripe) usually ensures that they're right back where they were very quickly.

    -Ayatollah
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    I'm not saying that Clan Teamwork is the problem. The problem is you will almost Never get that level of teamwork on a pub. Lessening the dependence on Teamwork would make Organised play less competitive, but would help pubs (not a good idea in my book) and increaseing the teamwork involved would be a death sentance to pubs, but might increase the competitive side (also not a good idea). Not an enviable task no matter how you look at it.
  • InexorableInexorable Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1360Members
    That's why the balance regarding teamplay needs to not concern itself so much with how powerful a team becomes with good teamwork, but how powerful it becomes compared to the opposite team with comparable teamwork. On any random server, the teamwork on both sides will be approximately the same (disregarding a clan teamstacking on a pub server)... so as long as the effects of teamwork are comparable for both races, you're fine.
  • SirusSirus Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    I refuse to supply ammo or health packs to any marines that go off and rush. I decided not to research JP's unless we are guarding a hive that requires them, such as power silo.

    Honestly, players wouldn't need to rely on JP's if they were cooperative and the commander competent.
  • taboofirestaboofires Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Members
    BHopping is illegal in the sensibly clan play ladders/tourneys.

    And yeah, Sirius, I've always been leery about spending 45 + 25 + 9/per for jets when the marines can be just as effective by changing their behavior (free). The force of 4 marines with hmgs and the occasional medpack can take out anything if they don't do something stupid that will get exploited by the skulks. The ones I see the most are not checking their 6, wandering off somewhere to die, and shooting each other in the back (less common as the other 2).

    Once the other team is stuck in the spawn queue, what do you need jetpacks for?

    Of course, I also appreciate that jetpacks are mindblowingly powerful on certain maps, like ns_nancy and ns_nothing. But that doesn't mean that I like it.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    edited March 2003
    IMO the thing that needs to change is the 'auto-teamwork' things built in to the two sides.

    Aliens have hive sight. This means all aliens, newbie or pro, know where conflict zones are, where marines are moving, what hives are up, etc. While teamwork can improve the response time and magnitude to a threat, there is a baseline response (people just looking at hivesight and running after the yellow or red) that is pretty good.

    The marines have no such thing. They can sit peacefully in base while they lose a hive without even knowing it. The commander (on pubs) gets distracted, cant organize all the marines quickly, and dosen't get upgrades done etc. The baseline response for marines is ZERO. This is the problem. I believe that if a 'conflict monitor' or something was added, it would improve the baseline teamwork on pubs, without influencing the teamwork/capabilities of pro players (as with pro players, the comm doesn't get distracted etc). This monitor would basically give alerts to marines (in the form of a red waypoint or something) of marine structures/players that are under attack. This would allow marines to know what locations are under attack so that they may phase there/run there without requiring the comm to first notice the problem and then to order the marines to get there.

    You may think 'oh but this will just make the marines all independant of the comm, and thats against their philosophy', which is kinda true. But i believe that this is necessary to make pub marines work together a little bit better. It will create a baseline of teamwork for the marines that will allow them to compete with the aliens baseline teamwork.

    Comments? Criticism?

    EDIT: yay 700th post
  • PugsleyPugsley Join Date: 2002-07-03 Member: 876Members
    Horrable idea Typhon I think, that idea would TOTALLY ruin any surprise the aliens have, currently the kharaa's best method of taking down a PG TFac hive defence is by rushing the hive when theres no/few marines there and then killing the PG, then just finding a blind spot on the TF and chomping on it. Now, add this 'under attack' marker, and once a skulk attacks the PG, the whole team is on you within seconds, marines can already lock down 2hives easily enough, this is definately not needed. Same for eating undefended RT's, a skulk can kill an RT in a moderately small amount of time, but if theres any marines nearby who get this warning, the RT will survive easily.
  • AyatollahAyatollah Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
    edited March 2003
    There is no active* rule against speed hopping; the best of the clans (sensibly) use every advantage that they have. There goes the alien speed advantage.

    With the same amount of teamwork, marines run over aliens in clan play. Consistently. There might be some freak accidents, like when my team plays, but otherwise. Yeah.

    My beef is, where public play can be so 10-hour-addictively fun, clan matches are over before the second hive. Why? Per the original post.

    Good organization shouldn't make the game less fun. In the case of this game, turn it into an FPS.

    -Ayatollah

    <edit>
    *per www.caleague.com, rule 4.50. There is no clear definition of bunnyhopping as an exploit.
    </edit>

    <edit again>
    Sirius: everything goes in pubs. You see nothing but JP rushes in clan play unless the marines feel like taking a risk. Given equal teams, the jp (more generally, marine) rush is foolproof.

    It's not necessary for clans to expand and mine their base, set up defences, go with HA, whatever (read: use alternative strategies). It's all a luxury. You could script the commander's role.
    </edit>
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    A "conflict monitor" would be helpful but a bit too much like hivesight. I purposed that Motion Tracking show Friendlies, but in a different color. This way at least if marines get seperated they can try and get it together again, or if they are lost they can at least find other marines, not necessarily the conflict.
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Members, Constellation
    TBH, I think we should really try and avoid threads like these until 1.1 is out. Competitive play was never gonna happen till 1.1 anyway.

    Along with the JP nerf i'm sure theres loads of changes that we have no idea about which will change the game in dynamic ways we can't imagine ATM, and for the better.

    MMZ, we know the minimap is going to be much more useful in 1.1, including showing your teammates positions.
  • AyatollahAyatollah Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
    Agreed Phoenix. Unfortunately, the CAL season has already started.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ayatollah+Mar 10 2003, 05:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ayatollah @ Mar 10 2003, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Agreed Phoenix. Unfortunately, the CAL season has already started. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    correction, it's in PRE-season.
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