Mapping Info - Doom 3

RevenantRevenant Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12249Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Something about compiling...Interesting</div> Well Doom3 is about 5 months away, or so they say. I wanted a few coding questions answered and to inform people of mapping being revolutionised.

Apparently there is no need in doom3 to compile, instead it uses runtime to play them.

Just asking coders...how could this possibly work?(Apart from needing atelast 1ghz pc)
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Comments

  • NumbersNotFoundNumbersNotFound Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7556Members
    It's ALWAYS better to translate the map into a format which is closer to that of machine language, so as not to use up CPU time to translate it.

    Now, WHEN exactly it does these calculations is an important step, and also the nature of Doom3:

    For one, Doom3 does ALL of the tough stuff in real time... lighting, rendering, etc. In a ... say half-life map, any mapper can tell you that the MAJORITY of the time is spent on the lighting stage, if the only "lighting" in the actual map file is where they are comming from, then this makes the idea of "interpreted" maps much more feasable.

    It would be kind of like BASIC in which it isn't compiled... think of it as "Real time" compilation.

    Of course, the actual render of the map will probably be a one time deal at the loading screen, so it shouldn't effect actual gameplay.

    I say it's a good thing, it's a REAL pain in the butt to have to compile maps, go ID!
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited March 2003
    Are they saying they'll use Just In Time compilation like Java ? Or that they'd truly run as a runtime, reading in the sections that they need as they go? Interesting either way, although I'm not sure why they'd want to go this route. In either case with those sorts of methods, it often increases load times and memory requirements (at least in writing normal apps in java or perl), but sometimes gets some speed gains in execution or just general portability. But who can say - if there's one thing Carmack ain't, it's stupid...

    Does anybody have a real source to this info other than his cousin's neighbor's dog's nephew? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • p4Samwisep4Samwise Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10831Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Mar 4 2003, 12:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Mar 4 2003, 12:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are they saying they'll use Just In Time compilation like Java ? Or that they'd truly run as a runtime, reading in the sections that they need as they go? Interesting either way, although I'm not sure why they'd want to go this route. In either case with those sorts of methods, it often increases load times and memory requirements (at least in writing normal apps in java or perl), but sometimes gets some speed gains in execution or just general portability. But who can say - if there's one thing Carmack ain't, it's stupid...

    Does anybody have a real source to this info other than his cousin's neighbor's dog's nephew? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I saw some interview somewhere (ain't I specific?) that said that the mapping tools for Doom 3 all show you the map in realtime as you're making it, thus making the job easier. And given the whole realtime lighting thing, that makes sense, since that's where most of the work is.

    That doesn't necessarily rule out a final "optimization" pass before the map actually goes into the game, though.
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    Actually, that's not quite right. There *IS* some compiling to do (seconds), but compared to what it takes us now (hours) its practically instantaneous.

    Traditionally, compiling on the quake engine is a 4 step process:
    BSP - basic map validity stuff, very quick
    CSG - remove unneeded brushes, reasonably quick.
    VIS - 2nd most time consuming, visibility calculations and etc. Can take hours.
    RAD - More time consuming than the other 3 combined. Does all the lighting in the map. Can take hours, maybe days on a slower computer.

    Basically what DOOM III does is do the VIS and RAD stage on the fly while you are playing. Its *NOT* "interpreted", so don't mix it up with an interpreted programming language. :P But since CSG and BSP are all you gotta do to compile, things are near instantaneous.

    This is based on detailed information given from Carmack himself at last year's Quakecon. We got to see a whole demonstration in person about the engine editing capabilities. :) You guys should see the real-time lighting placement and tweaking in the engine, its very very sexy!
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    darnit Doom, find me a transcript fewl!!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    So that means no more SHODAN compiles with 4 Xeon CPU's at 100% and 4GB of RAM completely filled for 2 hours for Ken20's next map? Phooey...
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    I don't think there is a transcript, as no recordings or reportings of any kind were allowed. But I'll dig around...
  • NumbersNotFoundNumbersNotFound Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7556Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->VIS - 2nd most time consuming, visibility calculations and etc. Can take hours.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    BUT, you can do Netvis (or mapster)... you can't do Netrad <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <img src='http://www.readyroom.org/shodan2_8x6.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

    Sniff... bye bye, baby...
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    Monse, I'm quite sure that you're the only one who isn't happy that maps no longer take hours to compile. :P
  • ChromeAngelChromeAngel Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 14Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    You'll probably need Shodan spec PC just to PLAY Doom 3....
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    Now now, MonsE, as long as there's NS, SHODAN will always have something to do <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    <!--QuoteBegin--ChromeAngel+Mar 5 2003, 02:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ChromeAngel @ Mar 5 2003, 02:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You'll probably need Shodan spec PC just to PLAY Doom 3.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    ID Software is not a bunch of morons. They know about making money. They won't make a game that only 10 people can play...

    It won't require a geforce 7, carmack has said all along it will be scalable down to slower systems. Just don't expect to play it on a 500mhz system, that kind of insane expectation is just stupid, as nothing else runs on that either...
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--DOOManiac+Mar 5 2003, 01:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Mar 5 2003, 01:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just don't expect to play it on a 500mhz system, that kind of insane expectation is just stupid, as nothing else runs on that either... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ehhh, except the game from this forum... ^_^
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    edited March 2003
    4 year old engines don't count. 500mhz was a great system when HL was new. but that was 1998, this is the year 2003. :P
  • RevenantRevenant Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12249Members
    IMHO opinion a 800-1.2GhZ is a big possibility for ID Software.
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    1.2 is obsolete. sorry, it just is. Deal with it. If you're lucky, it may hit the minimum spec for DOOM 3, but that'll be a bare minimum...

    anyway, I did some hunting and I found a little bit on Gamespy where they did a report on the presentation ID did, but I can't find the exact quote about the Compilation process. Perhaps that was from the Mod Roundtable (where we don't keep notes heh). But here's a little bit:
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Tools: Robert Duffy</b>

    Taking the podium next, Robert Duffy explained id's goals with the new DOOM 3 editing tools. "Early on, we decided we wanted to make things simple on ourselves and also simpler for the people out there who play our games and also modify them once they're released."

    "The renderbump process that Fred just talked about, as well as the BSP process and the editor are all built into the same executable, so if you actually run DOOM, all the tools are right there in the game," continued Duffy. "Obviously, you don't need tools while you're playing, but you can just run the game, bring the console down, type 'editor', and up pops the editor we use to build all the worlds."

    Duffy then pulled up the editor and showed the tool's ability to modify levels in real-time, so that designers can preview things while they're working and see what things will like in the world. To illustrate, lights were placed and moved around the level, with the appropriate reactions in the environment -- eliciting a series of 'ooh's and 'aah's from the crowd. After a rundown of some of the other new systems in the engine - including the particle system, scripting system, and GUI system, Duffy handed things off to level designer Matt Hooper.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You can read the rest of the article (and I HIGHLY recommend that you do) <a href='http://www.gamespy.com/articles/august02/quakecon2002/d3demo/' target='_blank'>here</a>.
  • Uh-OhUh-Oh Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6917Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Mar 5 2003, 02:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Mar 5 2003, 02:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--DOOManiac+Mar 5 2003, 01:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Mar 5 2003, 01:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just don't expect to play it on a 500mhz system, that kind of insane expectation is just stupid, as nothing else runs on that either... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ehhh, except the game from this forum... ^_^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Now you'Re just being silly <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Ns <u>can</u> run on low end systems such as 350-600Mhz computers, but it does so at crappy framerates.

    You cannot get 30fps constant with a 500Mhz system.

    Hell! I have a hard time getting a constant 30 fps with a 1.0gig system equiped with a GeForce2 ti64MB and 384MB ram.
    Sure, you can get 99fps if you look in a corner, but if you get some action or alot of onscreen constructions, you get 15-40 fps...

    Now, imagine playing NS with a AMD K6-2 500 (or a celeron 500), 256MB ram and a GeForce2 mx200 32MB... Playing with a resolution of 640x480 with an average of 15-20fps isn't exactly pretty or smooth.
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited March 2003
    I don't have to imagine it. One of my test machines was a P2-350 with a Riva TNT2; with good tuning I maintained about 30-40FPS consistently in NS (albeit at 16-bit color). I never got as bad as 10FPS; maybe down to 20 under really bad circumstances, which is still right around film speeds- read my <a href='http://www.readyroom.org/perfgde_1.html' target='_blank'>Windows Tuning Guide</a> and the <a href='http://www.tweak3d.net/tweak/halflife/' target='_blank'>Tweak3D HLTuning Guide</a> and see how. With your system specs, you should be getting much better performance. Much much better.

    And Doomaniac, that article was sweet. I don't know how I missed that one. Really gets me interested in the Doom3 technology, where I wasn't before. now if only they would write in some real MP support...

    And wait a minute... flexible and intuitive in-game menu system? Particle effects? High fidelity visual makeover? OMG TH3Y HA4XED NS D000DZ!!!

    /me slaps self
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    <!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Mar 5 2003, 02:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Mar 5 2003, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> now if only they would write in some real MP support... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You have no idea how many people cried in agony (outloud) upon Carmack saying it would be 4 player max w/ syncronious connection. Well, to give you an idea, it was <b>everyone in the room</b>.

    In fact, right then on the spot, due to the instantly negative feedback they got, they started reconsidering. And later, Jake Simpson from Raven (they are doing Quake 4 on the DOOM 3 engine) even sat down w/ us mod makers at the mod roundtable and we talked for about 2 hours alone just on how vital we felt MP would be in the doom3/quake4 engine.

    So they are listening, which is good.
  • NumbersNotFoundNumbersNotFound Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7556Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Mar 5 2003, 12:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Mar 5 2003, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <img src='http://www.readyroom.org/shodan2_8x6.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

    Sniff... bye bye, baby... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Do my eyes deceave me or is that ONE BEAST of a machine... it's either 4C CPUs or dual 3.06 HT processors. Plus 2GB of ram

    Either way, i envy you. My newest rig pales in comparison to that monster. I'm running an AMD 2400+ with 512MB ram.
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    <!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Mar 4 2003, 05:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Mar 4 2003, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So that means no more SHODAN compiles with 4 Xeon CPU's at 100% and 4GB of RAM completely filled for 2 hours for Ken20's next map? Phooey... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Reading is fun! ^_^
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Yeah, that pic was with only 2GB RAM. We later had to add 2GB more, as NS_Nothing would max it out during RAD and crash the compilation. I had all the guys from Zoner's tools puzzling over that one for a couple days...

    And yep, 4 CPU.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    Ah, that's nothing. The comps my pop uses for real-time medical imaging:

    dual 2.8 or 3.06 (probably the latter by now)
    4GB RDRAM
    Radeon 9700 Pro

    Many have dual-boom monitors
    his has the highest res monitor commercially available (it's INSANE)

    and more stuff that I can't remember at the moment. In any case, playing games at his office is very fun.
  • SanchoSancho Join Date: 2002-03-30 Member: 365Members
    Doom speaks the truth, this game requires one hell of a machine. Start saving up your money, cause you're gonna need some upgrades <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • TeoHTeoH Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11640Members
    edited March 2003
    *flaunt your warez elsewhere*
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited March 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Narfwak+Mar 5 2003, 09:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Narfwak @ Mar 5 2003, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ah, that's nothing.  The comps my pop uses for real-time medical imaging:

    dual 2.8 or 3.06 (probably the latter by now)
    4GB RDRAM
    Radeon 9700 Pro

    Many have dual-boom monitors
    his has the highest res monitor commercially available (it's INSANE)

    and more stuff that I can't remember at the moment.  In any case, playing games at his office is very fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ehhh, that's not as good as the SHODAN servers, with the exception of the graphics card. Sorry. The 4 Xeons in the later SHODAN servers were 2.8Ghz Xeons (which were the new hyperthreaded versions - it's the equivalent of 8 processors). I also rather doubt he runs with RAID10 15,000 RPM SCSI either on a 4-channel backplane with 256MB of drive controller cache... the servers were designed to handle 200 simultaneous Citrix user connections running JD Edwards.

    But he still has a nice rig. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ThansalThansal The New Scum Join Date: 2002-08-22 Member: 1215Members, Constellation
    ok, I gotta ask
    MonsE, why do you have these things? just what is your job? and do you need slave labour? (willing to do it just for the chace to look at one of these things ;D)

    and @DOOM, I hope they listend to yalls, other wise its gona be one hell of a bummer.
    Do you know the logic behind only 4player anyway? makes no sense to me. It can't be that hard to program up an engine that does 20 players as opposed to 4Ps???

    oh well, never did get that stuff. I hope it does change <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    I remember hearing from several places that DOOM 3 itself would only have 4 player multiplayer, but will be able to support more for mods and games based off the engine and so on.
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    id has said from the start that DOOM III won't be a big multiplayer contender, as that's what Quake 3 is/was for. DOOM III is going for single player experience 100%, any multiplayer at all is an afterthought bonus. I'm sad to hear it, but that's just the way it is.

    However, if I were to guess my bet would be that id will take the "Quake 2" approach. Since I know many of you are asking "what's Quake 2?" I'll save myself some headaches later and just explain now: When Quake 2 first came out, it was focused on Single Player, and multiplayer was kinda just there. No MP maps, buggy netcode. But after the game went gold id went to work patching the netcode and also making maps, and even hired Zoid (who made Q1's Threewave CTF, and later went on to code Metroid Prime!) to do q2ctf. This was all put into a point release. And It Was Good.

    Hopefully, id will do this approach w/ DOOM III. Make it have crappy-but-there multiplayer, go gold, THEN start cracking to make it at least 32 players w/ at least q3 quality netcode. That'd pwn.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Am I the only one who thinks it's economic suicide to create games that only work on PCs with more than 1.5 Ghz? I mean, even three out of five of my gamer friends don't use such rigs.
    ID's basically cutting itself from three quarters of its possible market.
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