Jetpack+hmg Rush

V_MANV_MAN V-MAN Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6217Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">What's your method for countering this?</div> I see this strategy time and time again in clan wars that it has become almost expected, hell I use it in a clan match because it is so simple, effective and it makes use of the marines early advantage in fire power blah blah etc etc you've heard it all before.

What I was wondering was how do most people counter this? I normaly try and slow the marines down by constantly rushing and taking down their res nodes as well as going for a key structure in their base long enough for that second hive to go up. If they should get jetpacks and HMGs what then? I find it is dependant on the hive room, refinery can be awful to defend against jetpackers as can all the hives on ns_eclipse in this situation I find that only lerks, some well placed OCs and lots of skulks can help but against a really good jetpacker or as many as four there isn't much you can do <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> .
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Comments

  • furykfuryk Join Date: 2003-02-24 Member: 13938Members
    get some good <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> get a lerk get ocs with your <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> and you should be fine.... try to place ocs in vents like in ns_nancy above the subspace hive it really helps slow them for a bit and warns you that they are close <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    Well, it's much easier to anticipate and attempt to prevent than actually halt once it gets going. Your gorges have to be very switched on. WoLs combined with webs on the ceilings, webs around the hive ceilings, webs and chambers in the vents. It's really a case of identifying all the locations of a hive which are a liability and blocking them.

    Of course, destroying RTs left right and centre is a good idea. It's always important to stop your enemy from gaining access to more advanced ways of killing you.

    As for combatting JPs themselves... it aint easy, even with leap and lerks. Acid rocket is your best bet, spikes are quite viable (generally more effective than trying to bite the JPer, anyway) and if you are good enough to bring them down with leap and bite then by all means do so.

    By the way, I discovered that you can severely hamper JP\HMG hive assaults on ns_nancy simply by patrolling the vents as a skulk. You don't have to survive the HMGs, you just have to parasite them and warn your team. This lets your buddies mobilise and get to the hive (or into the vents) before trouble arrives.
  • OkaboreOkabore Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9505Members
    On Nancy my best tactic to take out jet packers is to use leap. They can hide in vents in two of the hives and the easiest way to kill someone in a vent is to leap at them. Of course it doesnt work untill you get 2 hives.

    Jetpack is to cheap IMO. Once on Nacy the marines could only hold one or max two of the RT:s for any longer time and they still managed to swarm us with jet/hmg. We couldn't hold any hives except engine for any longer time and we couldn't be on the offensive since they where allways using the vents to kill our hives.
  • GrendelGrendel All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
    It takes a couple of minutes and a load of resources to rebuild and upgrade an advanced armoury. Without it, no HMGs. A JP/LMG rush can be dealt with by a bunch of Lerks.

    Failing that, 2 or 3 Lerks with a handful of DCs can spike a marine to death in moments. Just remember that spikes are hitscan, not projectile as they appear. They instantly hit wherever your crosshairs are pointing, unlike the LMG, which has a spread.
  • V_MANV_MAN V-MAN Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6217Members, Constellation
    edited February 2003
    In a clan match the other day jetpackers got trough to our second hive that was building in refinery despite us constantly taking down their res nodes in atmos. We had to let them kill the hive because there was simply nothing we could do with first hive aliens in such a huge hive room other than annoy them with lerk spikes and offence chambers. So we did a couple of rushes on their base in feedwater and got the proto type lab and the upgraded armoury, we then continued to take out their res nodes until the second hive was up. We ended up winning when we rushed feedwater a few more times and got their ip without anyone going fade <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> .

    I think we were lucky in that game though IMO had the jetpackers gone on to our first hive in engine room they would have killed it but instead they came back to feedwater to defend the base where the low ceiling kept them in bite range of the skulks.
  • NicatorNicator Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10829Members
    Wherever possible, I'll try to get two RTs up before any DCs. This makes it more likely than not that the hive will be up by the time they get JPs, giving we which makes jping a lot harder. This requires your skulks to be really switched on and organised. I'll also ask at least one person to go lerk after the second hive is building.

    If my skulks can't hold the marines long enough for me to get 2 rts (IE I have to build DCs early), I'll try a base rush. Unfortunately, if the comm uses mines properly base rushes can be depressingly inneffective.
  • kavasakavasa Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11889Members, Constellation
    Defending as 2-hive aliens is easy, so I won't cover that.
    1-hive aliens should have 2-3 lerks and at least three DCs under the hive. With something like refinery, your best bet is actually to wol up the entrances to the hives, 'cuz once a not-**** jetpacker is in there, he has free reign to do as he likes, pretty much. With something like, say, cargo hive or feedwater, tossing OCs in the hive and running around on the cieling as skulk works.

    Basically: be a badass. With some creative recycling, you can get a pair of JP/HMG before the aliens have a hive, no problem, one RT - so it's going to come down to the skill of the lerks vs. the skill of the jetpackers.

    -K
  • V_MANV_MAN V-MAN Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6217Members, Constellation
    Hmmm it's a tough decision WoL up the entrances to refinery or get the hive up sooner, we went for the get hive up sooner one and lost the hive <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> but we did bouce back to win by starving the marines of res and getting both the armoury and proto lab.
  • CoStrykerCoStryker Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13886Members
    Don't forget that every JP'er has to land sometime. And if the comm drops a shitload of health-packs and ammo in one spot, stop there as a skulk and try to time him landing with your bite. I've killed many jp'ers by just guessing whereabouts they were going to land and chomping on them b4 they had a chance to regen their fuel.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    the happiest way ive found of doing it is plonk a lerk in the dip ontop of an open hive with some dcs underneath. The dip in the hive means that the lerk can shoot out of the hive spot but any marines firing in will hit hte hive not the lerk <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • KhaimKhaim Join Date: 2002-06-28 Member: 841Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    just make sure your watching your hives/vents with a skulk or lerk so you know before hand when they are comming. Other than that its just some luck and skill. (taking out res helps too along with the advanced armory or the upgrading proto lab.)
  • ainfectainfect Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13102Members
    good lerks, O towers, webbing if you have, and skulls that can parasite so you know where they are going.

    ive said this time and time again. MOST PEOPLE DONT KNOW HOW TO JP. they get stuck, run of out juice, whatever. i get so many skull kills on JPers cause they get stuck in the ceiling, fall, hurt themselves to like 20 health, then i bite them in the head. sometimes i get cocky and just parasite kill them.
  • laggerlagger Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
    edited February 2003
    I just read the forum topic and came to give you one of the only ways to have a chance against the "rush". Get 1-2 rsr nodes IF possible depending on how the pressure etc... if they are pressuring with more then 2 people then i'd advaise some dc's ASAP!

    Build 5-7 off towers around your hive although keep in mind if FF is on via tournament mode you'll need to put thought in were u place them because they WILL hurt your hive. If theirs more then one way into your hive *ushally the case* try and cut one of the pass's off via off towers by stacking. Leaving 1 way open giving the other team incentive to come in on that way. Off's have the proabability of killing 1-2 hmg/jpers while they spam your hive but u cannot always count on this.. Its more for the fact they cant land and get health if you hurt them. Have 3-4 lerks assuming this is a 6v6 match, 2 just spiking and the other 2 mid-flight biting... *YOU MUST practice this skill as its very important*.

    the jp/hmg rush is VERY hard to counter.. but keep in mind that even though you have all these off defense towers etc.. in place... it wont stop them from just camping near your hive and siegeing with hmgs/jp's still geared up!
  • MeltedSnowmanMeltedSnowman Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7779Members
    X/0 managed to defeat a rather nasty JP/HMG rush strategy (involving the recycling of the entire marine base if I recall correctly) with four lerks and two gorges.

    I don't know what map it was on, but that'll give you an idea of what it takes to stop it successfully. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • FirewaterFirewater Balance Expert Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10690Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--V-MAN+Feb 26 2003, 12:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V-MAN @ Feb 26 2003, 12:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I see this strategy time and time again in clan wars that it has become almost expected, hell I use it in a clan match because it is so simple, effective and it makes use of the marines early advantage in fire power blah blah etc etc you've heard it all before.

    What I was wondering was how do most people counter this? I normaly try and slow the marines down by constantly rushing and taking down their res nodes as well as going for a key structure in their base long enough for that second hive to go up. If they should get jetpacks and HMGs what then? I find it is dependant on the hive room, refinery can be awful to defend against jetpackers as can all the hives on ns_eclipse in this situation I find that only lerks, some well placed OCs and lots of skulks can help but against a really good jetpacker or as many as four there isn't much you can do <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> . <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    this is what sYn does:

    our gorge caps a node right away, and while he is saving, all the skulks suicide para rush in their base while they are still trying to build structures.

    the reason we do this is because dead skulks dont suck up resources, and hey sometimes you just get lucky and can end the game, but thats not important now.

    now after the first RT is up, we have another player go gorge. One caps RTs, the other builds hive defenses. We put 6 D chambers (yes 6 i know d chambers can only heal a structure 3 at a time) and scatter O chambers around the hive. While the hive is getting attacked the gorge tries to heal it, because most people just focus on the hive, and not the gorge or d chambers. The extra D chambers are incase a crafty JP/HMGer decides to go after the d chambers.

    Then 2 of our guys go Lerk so its 2 lerks, 2 skulks, and 2 gorges. Lerks attempt to spike down and force them to land for health, and skulks attempt to bite him while he lands. Lerks can rarely do it themselves, they need to pressure the JPer so that he needs to land, and skulks usually get the kill.

    Every time you successfully defend a JP/HMG rush, you have to counter attack. Run it back to them, whether you attack their main base, OR attack their RTs.

    Now the super hard part of defending JP/HMG, expanding to the second hive. When you expand you typically have 2 gorges at the expansion, a lerk and a skulk, which leaves a lerk and a skulk at the main hive. One gorge saves for the hive obviously, and the other builds hive defenses.

    It is SOOO difficult to 2 hive locations with 6 total players, your guys have to stay sharp and have Excellent alien killing ability, otherwise any decent marine team can squash you.

    This strat will not always work, and it has failed us before, BUT this is the way that we successfully countered many jp/hmg rushes.

    Hopefully this helps.
  • K_e_r_b_e_r_o_sK_e_r_b_e_r_o_s Join Date: 2003-02-01 Member: 12966Members
    What I do is simple. I go for Height Advantages to counter this. See, a lot of people think masses of defenses all in one point will stop this kind of attack; the thing is it does'nt. Jetpackers move fast, and usually can get away with minimal damage. Then comes the fact the commander can drop health kits anywere and everywere.

    Namely, any height will be used by me to stop these attackers.
  • XzilenXzilen Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11642Members, Constellation
    Web, Well Placed Towers, and Team Mates <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    Neither webs nor towers against a JP RUSH. If you have webs or lots of OC/DC's, it wasn't a rush.
  • ZERGZERG Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13132Members, Constellation
    I would assume the server was large if you could rush to HMG/JP that fast. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Firewater, I am genuinely curious. How the HECK to you get OCs and 6 DCs with TWO gorges before the the other team manages to JP/HMG rush you? and after all that you STILL have enough res for some to go lerk? WOW. Utterly amazing res management. Teach me how you do that please! The only way I can think of to do this is to NOT put up a second hiv at all during this time. And if you don't, and only focus on defneding one hive, the marines can expand with impunity to the other hives. All they have to do is camp the other hives with HMG/JP, while the commander spams medpacks if you attack him. Your strat sounds like the alien version of turtling, and turtling against marines I think is generally bad becuase mariens are only limited by resources, so more time=stronger marines.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    Yes, of course it's a bad idea to turtle that much. That's why JP/HMG rush is so powerful - even if you defend against it the best you can, it will still put you into an awful strategic position. So either the HMG/JP rush kills you outright, or you loose the game 10-15 min later anyhow.

    Now, in clan games you run one game as aliens, one games as marines, and ties are (?) decided by who wins fastest. So turtling up and delaying the marine JP rush win as much as possible may still be enough to win the match, if not the game.
  • RenmauzoRenmauzo Join Date: 2002-12-27 Member: 11571Members
    OC and lerks.. That's the only way.. Once you got Fades it 's a obviously a lot easier.. If you have trouble shooting acid rocket on jetpackers.. Go play some Quake 3.
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--|ds|meatshield+Mar 2 2003, 04:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Mar 2 2003, 04:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How the HECK ... The only way I can think of to do this is to NOT put up a second hiv at all during this time. And if you don't, and only focus on defneding one hive, the marines can expand with impunity to the other hives. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I would also call this the alien version of turtling; unfortunately I think it's the best defense the aliens have against a jetpack rush. The strat I have been messing around with calls for the same proportion of skulks, lerks, and gorges, but one of the gorges (the first one, I guess) has to keep capping res around the map. I think it's vital because it allows the aliens to be on a good footing once the jetpack rush is finished. Time works for the marines only if they're able to hold the aliens in one spot. Level 3 equipment still won't be able to clear out a map full of walls of lame. And of course avoiding the second hive until at least the first rush has been completed.

    One thing I think that you can count on is that in a true jetpack rush, the marines would be totally concentrated on getting that first hive down. It's essential to them since they have been focusing on rushing tech in stead of capping res and controlling the map. I think it's wise to avoid thinking about the second hive until the first rush has been killed so that you know where they will be going. The aliens are much more effective when they're all in a little horde.

    Additionally the counter attack (assuming you survive the initial rush) is vital. The aliens have to put the hurt on the marines enough when they are weak so that they won't be able to mount another rush immediately.

    Of course each clan or whatever has their own spin on how to do the tech/jetpack rush, so you have to be able to customize your defense accordingly. If the marines don't put as much pressure on your first hive, instead opping to cap res and control the map, you need to be able to spread out and hurt their res intake as much as possible.

    Anyway, those are my unpolished thoughts on the issue.
  • TabrisTabris Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4273Members
    I'd have to say I like my counter... Many people I see do not use webs effectively... they concentrate them...

    My usual counter to this technique is the usual way i start 3/4 rts and hive...

    usually about the time the first jp drops... i have webs... I web the entire hive room in random directions... concentrated webs are quite easy to get around. If you ever see one of my web jobs... it covers the ENTIRE room... and Ive only ever had 2 jpers in all my web jobs actually get the hive.. and it was late game, they had fallen to my webs before and brought welders.

    Random web jobs have been the bane of more than a few marines in my experiance... every game ive webbed ive brought at least one jper down into my oc's without even being there.....
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    I was under the impression we were ficticiously playing against good marines. Any marine team, no offense to them, that doesn't get a jetpack rush off until after the second hive, is not going to take down the hive even if the aliens have a crappy gorge.

    As far as I'm concerned you can assume two things: 1) webs will not be a factor in the jetpack rush, 2) once you get webs your jetpack worries are (or should be) over.
  • AkumaAkuma Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9219Members, Constellation
    I've played with ways to counter and alot of it depends on hive.

    Refinery there is hardly any chance in hell you're gonna slap more then 1 jp boy down.

    Eclipse on the other hand some OCs scattered around and skulks can do well.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    edited March 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--(e)kent+Mar 2 2003, 11:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((e)kent @ Mar 2 2003, 11:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One thing I think that you can count on is that in a true jetpack rush, the marines would be totally concentrated on getting that first hive down.  It's essential to them since they have been focusing on rushing tech in stead of capping res and controlling the map. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ah ... no. That's not quite true. In fact, because the marines don't have invested large amount of resources in any particular place, they have lots of free marines that can roam the map, hunt gorges and build res towers. Do note that in an 8v8 game, a restower only needs to stay alive for slightly more than a minute to pay for itself. As a single skulk takes 30 seconds to take it down, it means that build-it-and-leave-it is a very valid strategy.

    The only place the marines need to defend is the base. Give the base defender a shotgun and a couple of minepacks, and the tech rush strategy will see the marines dominating the map MORE than in a hive lockdown situation. Especially as they will have early armor/weapon and possibly MT as well.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    That is correct. Add some mining of the Rts that the marines cap, and the marines will be ROLLING in res even in a 6v6 game if the aliens just turtle and not expand. If the comm sees that the aliens are turtlng, then he should alter his strategy appropriated (in ways like I suggested in my previous post)
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    Hypothesize a 6 vs 6 game on ns_nothing. Lets say the aliens start in silo, though it doesn't really matter for the purposes. The strat I would use as a commander would be to have 2 or 3 (fluctuating with time, the point is to keep the aliens off guard) marines wandering through generator and miasma down into and around viaduct, 1 or 2 marines wandering down quad lift towards silo, and the remander guarding base, docking wing, and capping the res at cargo. This is not anything revolutionary, just the obvious.

    As an alien, I'm aware that the marines are going to be gorge hunting in via and capping res in cargo. Thus, we want to spread our forces appropriately. The major disadvantage for the aliens (in my eye) is respawn time, so we don't want to have a massive attack that dies, because during the time it takes for us to respawn, the marines can spread all over the map and entrench themselves at positions of strength -- such as the corner on the left side (comm view) of viaduct with two loooong hallways, or at the hallway between forboding antichamber and silo hive. So alien attacks are focused at probing the marine positions and not being afraid to run and heal up. Parasite is a lot of fun because it seriously ticks the marines off and makes them be really cautious and slow.

    Ok, 5 minutes in, so the gorge has gotten two res towers up and the team so far is doing sub par but not horrible on the kill chart and presumably equivelently at keeping the marine expansion in check (I want to clarify this because we are hypothesizing teams which are fairly evenly matched). At this time most of the aliens should be maxed at 33 res; also the marines should be very much well on their way to the rush (ie either upgrading the armory or dropping a proto lab), no matter if they have been losing a few res towers. The first thing I would do is create another gorge to build ocs around silo and a lerk to hang around the hive. The first gorge caps a fourth tower, and places a little defense (maybe just one OC) to prevent rambo knifing.

    Now, if the marines are still harassing viaduct hardcore, I'd boost the original gorge into red room to secure it before I capped the last res near viaduct. That's because you can assume that if they're not collapsing back to base then they're not ready to jetpack rush. If they're not around viaduct anymore, then cap the last res and put defenses around viaduct (with the help of a skulk to boost). Hopefully there's 4 or 5 ocs around silo by now. I'd have another skulk go lerk. If one of these lerks is really good it would be nice to have them patrol between viaduct and silo.

    If marines haven't rushed by this point then the game is over. However, against a good team you should expect a rush before this -- soon after the second gorge started on the defenses. If the marines get jetpacks before this then the second lerk should go immediately and camp silo. With 2 lerks a gorge and some offense towers, you should be able to defeat any marines unless they have a comm with medpack aimbot or something. With 2 lerks a gorge and 2 skulks you should be able to hold off most jetpack rushes. Of course chance is a pretty big factor.

    However, once and if the rush is defeated, the first gorge should get the second hive up asap. Additionally, the rest of the team should counter attack to delay any 2nd rush. Even a weak counter attack should buy you enough time to get webs.

    I would still call this turtling, only strategically.
  • TheHornetTheHornet Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1776Members, Constellation
    lerks. I good lerk can stop anything.
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