1.1 Q.....will Jet + Hmg

Question · February 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Still be able to kill hives?</div> I am NOT talking about jet/hmg rush here.Im talking about whether jet/hmg people will still be able to take down hives in 1.1.

E.G.ns_nothing,marines take over cargo and secure the area.Lots of res.Getting upgrades.Aliens starting to get 2nd hive,attempts to get near power silo or viaduct to seige thwarted by mass skulks.Marines hand out jet/hmg(9 res per tick....lots of res.) and with say....level 2 upgrades rush power silo.

In 1.1 would the marines be able to kill the hive like this?Or will they have to do the slow trek via ha/hmg and getting pounded by fades all the time?

I hope so.Why?Because yes,although jet/hmg rush is cheap,effective and nearly powerless to stop,at 2 hives with fades + webs + mass OCs,the aliens are not exactly powerless to stop jet/hmg marines killing their hive.

Ph0enix · February 2003

Your post is a bit confusing, it's full of contridications.

Do you mean JP/HMG rushing is too effective in 1.04 and your wondering if it will be as effective a tactic in 1.1 ?

eaglec · February 2003

on that map get your skulks to cargo before the marines and hide, wait till they drop their first structure and then munch them all and kill the structure(s). Get your gorge there quick to get the res towers and put up defenses after this and use our skulks to defend against return attacks. There are lots of hiding places. Now you own three res towers and a shortcut to viaduct and the marines are 5 minutes behing, have nothing and lost 20 res in your first attack. Jetpac hmg tactics can go easily very wrong for marines.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Speed_2_Dave · February 2003

until the hitbox issue is fixed, this strat is very powerful, but still preventable. If the marines have to use this tactic lots, leave a gorge or two near your hives.. the jetbos will run out of ammo eventually, and putting a new hive up solves the issue.

I think the strat forces aliens to defend their hive more, which makes more sense than building offensive defenses (defense far away from the hive)

Nm3-Col_EcLiPsE · February 2003

How about Jpacks not being able to carry HMG's ??

i dont want this personaly but its a solution O_o

Aaron · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([Nm3]-Col.EcLiPsE @ Feb 26 2003, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How about Jpacks not being able to carry HMG's ??

i dont want this personaly but its a solution O_o  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
This would actually make sense, but I'm not sure of the ramifications. I fix to the jet pack fuel bug might be sufficient.

RyoOhki · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How about Jpacks not being able to carry HMG's ??
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I heard they tried this in the beta but it wasn't viable...

Personally I think the hive should emit an umbra cloud when attacked. Would minimise hmg damage whilst still enabling gls and seiges (the "proper" anti-structure weapons) to take it down without hinderance.

Sandrock · February 2003

The umbra idea sounds interesting, but might be too powerful. Why not jack up the amount of armor the hive has. For example, the hive gets upgraded with defense chambers?

Dirty_Harry_Potter · February 2003

what about the hive randomly puffs out the umbra clouds, so its not 100% covered by them... - or maybe just make a weaker hive cloud which doesn't block as many bullets as the umbra cloud does.

NSCypher · February 2003

This should go into suggestions + ideas now...

PvtLohne · February 2003

Having a hive emit an umbra would be a bit much, if you think about it. I find umbra makes the allready hella toughfades not even worth your ammo, and they DON"T have several thousand hit points.0.o

Despite the fact that the first post here is somewhat difficult to understand, I do agree with it's last sentence. I've been on the reciving end up jetbo rushese before, and been quietly **** at how hard it is to stop it(though that's just skill, some seem able to Neo with any skulk and get you inside of 100 feet), so I'm not just talking game. At 2 hives, the fades arrive, and that's preety much it on 80 percent of the servers out there. It's not exactly a "specfic" in game tactic, but if it works and it's not an exploit, it should stay.

matso · February 2003

Have the flying ability be dependent on how much weight the marines carry. A GL and a full loadout of ammo would mean a slow and cumbersome flight (half thrust compared to LMG loadout, say), and make it very, very difficult to stay aloft for very long, or to get enough flying height to jump away from skulks.

Oh, and lets NOT upgrade the hive with DC's. 1.1 should strive to make other upgrade parts apart from DMS possible.

RyoOhki · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Having a hive emit an umbra would be a bit much, if you think about it. I find umbra makes the allready hella toughfades not even worth your ammo, and they DON"T have several thousand hit points.0.o
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

In fades you're dealing with a moving target that can dodge, escape and heal quickly, and also recieve upgrades. A hive has none of that, it simply sits there and the whole marine team knows exactly where it is on the map. Also, the 6000 hp a hive has is almost a joke because a hmg will tear that to shreads in a very short period of time. The umbra cloud would stop the hmg/jp combo without taking away the marines ability to destroy the hive itself. Jping with a grenade launcher is more difficult; aliens have more time to attack the jper and the grenades have to be arced just right to hit the hive when in flight. Not to mention the reloading. Giving the hive the ability to almost negate bullet damage would at least severely reduce the occurances of hive assassination. With the current system the hive goes down so fast under hmg fire that it rewards lone rambos, not teamwork. This simply should not be the case.

Sandrock · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 26 2003, 11:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Giving the hive the ability to almost negate bullet damage would at least severely reduce the occurances of hive assassination.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Negating bullet damage would be a bad idea IMO. I guess it would depend on how it worked in-game. By just plain negating bullet damage, you would probably void out or at least severely hinder the early marine rush. Its a risky strategy already, but then to totally nerf bullet damage? The only way to get this idea to work is if the hive had some sort of upgrade, or the effect didn't happen immediately. Maybe at 3 hives, the hive takes a certain % less damage from bullets (forcing them to siege or use nades)?

RyoOhki · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>By just plain negating bullet damage, you would probably void out or at least severely hinder the early marine rush. Its a risky strategy already, but then to totally nerf bullet damage?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I'm not talking about nerfing it completly, I said an umbra cloud would be "emitted" by the hive when it was attacked. Yes, this would stop 4 out of every 5 bullets. If a whole team of marines rushed the hive they could a) knife the thing, that thing does serious damage b) just shoot at it because they will do some damage, just not as much. Knifing would be tough on say, the refinery hive on bast, but really, do we want this kind of gameplay in NS? Rush wins by either side are just boring.

Ph0enix · February 2003

I have no problem with rush wins. As long as there's an adequate counter, and there isn't any reasonable counters against an earlier JP/HMG rush ATM.

Have you played StarCraft ? It's like Paper/Scissors/Stones.

An early rush strategy will beat an early economy strategy. However an early defense will beat a rush strat. A earlier economy will beat an early defense. In SC.

These kind of matchups aren't quite in NS yet.

localhost2600 · February 2003

<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=20&t=24694&st=0' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...20&t=24694&st=0</a>

That help?

Immacolata · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 26 2003, 05:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How about Jpacks not being able to carry HMG's ??
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I heard they tried this in the beta but it wasn't viable...

Personally I think the hive should emit an umbra cloud when attacked. Would minimise hmg damage whilst still enabling gls and seiges (the "proper" anti-structure weapons) to take it down without hinderance.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
No it shouldn't. You don't see marine CC's being untouchable by skulks, or onos or something. All weapons should be able to hurt the hive.

Rather, I'd love to see it being impossible to land on top of a hive, always, so that well build OC's could help kill a flying marine without harmlessly shooting at their own hive.

xioutlawix · February 2003

Hmm, I kinda like the idea of the hive emitting umbras like was mentioned. As it is, this can go one of two ways.
Either you leave the situation as is where lone rambo-ism is encouraged and sole marines with jetpacks and hmg's can take out the hive, thus catering to the less team-oriented manner of the pub, or you give the hive more ways of defending itself, encouraging a more team oriented way of play from the marine side, which caters to the way professionals and clans play.

I personally am for the latter, whatever makes it more team-oriented the better, I say.

xioutlawix · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Feb 26 2003, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Have you played StarCraft ? It's like Paper/Scissors/Stones.

An early rush strategy will beat an early economy strategy. However an early defense will beat a rush strat. A earlier economy will beat an early defense. In SC. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Heh, wow, I was looking for a way to describe warcraft 3, and as far as I can tell, I think this sums it up perfectly, thanks <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Dunno if you play it at all, but I've found war3 to be a huge disappointment in this respect.

taboofires · February 2003

If they fix the bug about the hive not healing itself correctly (see my post in the bug thread), persistance alone will stop being so powerful against a hive (ie throwing your spawn power at it).

I do think it's a good idea to have some negative effect for carrying heavy weapons while using jp, but making it illegal is taking it a bit far. Perhaps just make fuel run out faster, or greatly reduce flight speed? Also, you'd figure that much kickback from such a massive gun would knock you right into a wall anyway if you weren't bracing yourself against a solid object.

Xentor · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Feb 26 2003, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Also, you'd figure that much kickback from such a massive gun would knock you right into a wall anyway if you weren't bracing yourself against a solid object.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Now THAT's an idea.... Maybe something like a pistol or LMG wouldn't give too much recoil, but a shotgun would jerk you back a fair bit, and an HMG would throw you right across the room... It wouldn't be a hard restriction like "No HMGs with Jetpacks", but it would be a decision... Do you want to stick with light weapons/GLs and be in control, or do you want the extra firepower and the maneuverability disadvantage that comes with it?

Just gotta watch for the exploit... HMGs being used as vertical thrust so the JP Recharge rate > Fuel usage rate.

Nicator · February 2003

I quite like the idea....but it also messes up those great marine comebacks when you manage to sneak into their base and lmg their hive down, just as it looks like you're gonna die. I'd say have the umbra block 1/2 to 2/3 max bullets, and only work when the hive is completely built. They'd also have to make sure that the hitboxes for the hives were fixed so that melee weapons could be used, and that the umbra couldn't cover aliens hiding within it.

p4Prospero · February 2003

I think it's a valuable strategy that should not be restricted. Marines have to guard their bases.... aliens should be no different. A wee bit of web and O towers and you're set. I'll be the first to admit I hate jetbos, but hey each dead jetbo is worth 34 res and they are not invincible. I would like to see increased fuel usage when carrying heavy weapons though.

Prosp

1.1 Q.....will Jet + Hmg

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