Tf Revisited
Inexorable
Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1360Members
Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1360Members
<div class="IPBDescription">looking back at old changes</div> Waaaay back in the initial release version of NS, Sentries were generally seen as insanely dominant. I'ld be hard pressed to say why, other than the fact marines could often seem to field 30 sentries, and HMG/HA marines constantly.
In any case, this perception of dominance led to the adjustment on the TF that if it went down, so did all the nearby turrets. My personal feelings on the matter was that sentries were seen as powerful simply because nobody knew how to handle them, after all the game had only been public for a few short weeks.
Now that the majority of players have gotten the feel of the Kharaa down (and hopefully there's still a few of us left who remember the good ol' days when you needed to take down all the sentries before you could yell out "X location clear!"), do you feel it's still a good idea? I can empathize with anyone that feels sentry farms are hard to take down with 1 hive, especially on pub servers. But I've had the feeling ever since this change that sentries are basically 19 RP lumps of coal for all the good they do. You can spend 150+ RP to keep out one Skulk (5 turrets MIN), or I can spend 6 RP on Cara for 3 Skulks and take down your entire sentry farm in less than 30 seconds.
Am I the only one who misses the old days?
In any case, this perception of dominance led to the adjustment on the TF that if it went down, so did all the nearby turrets. My personal feelings on the matter was that sentries were seen as powerful simply because nobody knew how to handle them, after all the game had only been public for a few short weeks.
Now that the majority of players have gotten the feel of the Kharaa down (and hopefully there's still a few of us left who remember the good ol' days when you needed to take down all the sentries before you could yell out "X location clear!"), do you feel it's still a good idea? I can empathize with anyone that feels sentry farms are hard to take down with 1 hive, especially on pub servers. But I've had the feeling ever since this change that sentries are basically 19 RP lumps of coal for all the good they do. You can spend 150+ RP to keep out one Skulk (5 turrets MIN), or I can spend 6 RP on Cara for 3 Skulks and take down your entire sentry farm in less than 30 seconds.
Am I the only one who misses the old days?
Comments
seing how as automated bases are somthing that Flayra didn't like the idea of, you are not suposed to set up an TF and turrets in a hive and then forget about it, you have to freaken watch em or else you will loose (that was the point)
seing how as automated bases are somthing that Flayra didn't like the idea of, you are not suposed to set up an TF and turrets in a hive and then forget about it, you have to freaken watch em or else you will loose (that was the point) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well put dude. THEY are not <b>supposed</b> to be make and forget bases. They are just a defense, you need to have people to have them secure. And a mix of mines and turrets are best anyway. I usually go for a TC with 3 turrets in triangle formation with mines around the tf and near the turrets.
You're usually going to have to build about 6 sentries to cover any mini-base (That's just minimal coverage, fewer sentries and you're probably going to have a blind spot), but the Kharaa are only going to have to destroy 1-2 of them in order to bring the whole thing down. So a minimal firebase costs 139 RP, but only has something like 2000 HP. And that's just what I'm getting at. The 50 turret carpets of yore are obviously too strong, but is is possible that taking down SG fields is too easy now?
That is an interesting idea with ammo though. I'm sure it would be incredibly difficult to code, but if all the sentries had a bit of ammo stored in them which the TF replaced constantly, that would allow the TF to go down for a short period of time without the entire field shutting down immediately. If you couldn't get another TF up quickly all your sentries would soon run out of ammo, but at least it would be more of a deterrent than the "Kill one sentry and yell 'Hive X is clear' over voicecomm" of today.
Turret accuracy is SO bad a skulk can run through a room with say......6 turrets in it,and it wotn get hit.Okay,so its only for "deterrance".
But its just TOO easy to take down sentry turrets.....granted,theres supposed to be a marine there,guarding the place,but its generally very easy to kill him first without getting hit by the turrets (just keep moving and they can hardly hit you).Lets say 2-3 carapace level 3 skulks,they rush in,take out the marine guard and at LEAST manage to severly damage the place before reinforcements pour in through the portal.
I find it ironic how 0 res marines arent supposed to kill 54 res fades,but 0 res skulks are supposed to kill 100+ res outposts.
A carapace level 3 skulk can take a turret down to red HP just by sitting there and chomping on it.What happens if the skulk strafes and bites?Goodbye turret.
I would have to say.....OCs > Turrets.Sure you cant make 50 of them in one place,but you rarely see 50 turrets in one place in REGULAR games anymore.OCs just do more damage,have more HP,can be auto-healed and combined with webs......although turrets are hitscan,you can hardly see a difference in accuracy between OC and Turrets.
Turrets arent worth 19 res IMHO.More like 15.THEN you might be able to get enough turrets to prove a serious threat.
OC's are much better than Turrets. Make Turrets independent of the factory again, that's the BIG drawback. It's a hinderance enough that you have to build the factory to make the turrets, but why should you need it after they are built? Then if the skulks want to strafe bite each turret down, let em....but it shouldnt be a free ride with the TF.
I too think this was too hasty of a change in the system.
Also if a skulk can take down a mrine with out getting hit, shame on the marine, he should have had himself fully coverd with sentry fire and he should be able to track a skulk well enugh so that the turets would take it down. Meh what ever
Also, I think of them more as an assist then as a defense. LMG + Turrets firing at something do more damage then just the LMG, therefor it makes it easier to kill things that come into that area.
Also think of it this way: If its required to have a TF to put down turrets in the area, then why on earth would the turrets be able to function WITHOUT the TF? There would be no reason to mandate a TF before turrets.
I think that the two changes suggested in this thread that would have the most positive effect on gameplay are:
A: Reduce turret cost. In 1.04 TFs went down from 25 to 20, a good start, but 5 res off of a 120+ res outpost isn't much. Make turrets cost 16 or 15. That means you can get like one more turret for every five. This will just give these outward posts like one more turret to shoot at the skulk, or a welder to heal them.
B: Prototype lab turret upgrade. I like this one. I've always thought the P-type lab needed more stuff in it. A 40-50 res upgrade that made the turrets track better (maybe spin faster?) would be very good. Part of the reason a skulk can strafe around a turret or run through a farm is cuz the turrets don't track too fast. Make them spin faster and i guarentee you'll see a noticeable impact on the effect of your turrets.
And turrets should not be expected to defend a res node. In fact, turrets should only be somewhere where there's a phase gate. That usually means the base, a hive, or an important forward position.
If anything, turret farms are TOO powerful right now. If you make the turrets work without the TF, you'd never see aliens win another game. If I was the comm, I'd cap about 4-5 res towers, and just start turreting my way to the hives like there was no tomorrow, and if they didn't have at least 3 fades, there would be nothing the aliens could do about it. I play aliens a lot, mostly cause I don't like waiting in the cramped marine line with 7 other people and would rather have some fun, and I can say, from personal experience, that turrets farms are damn near impossible to take down if the comm has any idea what he is doing. I like the way turrets work right now personally, they are suppose to be helping fire, not 5 turrets that defend perfectly at all costs. If anything, I'd like to see the cost of the TF increased again to 25.
If you make turrets too strong, you don't give aliens a chance to ever stop the 2 hive lockdown, which is nearly impossible to stop as it is. Moreover, you don't give skulks a chance to do ANYTHING once turrets go up...bringing up the before mentioned "turret crawl".
Keep it the way it is.
That is of course when marines DO listen to you and realize the outpost is being taken down. I think most comms on pub servers really on turretss cos they cant totally rely on marines to be phasing in time when the mass skulk rush comes.
The way i overcome this when I comm is to try to anticipate a mass skulks rush by looking at my minimap (when it works and I remember to look at it ;p) and see where most of teh red dots are going. When I feel they are heading to an outpost with a phase, i quickly tell my marines to start phasing ther fast.
2x the number of marine players. Maybe a minimum cost of 10.
That's really the most important factor in all this, because I've played in large and small servers and the difference in turreting is clear. If the marines can spare one guy to sit in a turret field and maintain it, that base will be nearly impossible to break. If the marines are so short on players they can hardly assemble a scouting team, they're gonna need a lot of turrets, because the repairman ain't coming for a while.
The exact numbers would need to be tweaked, but some variance could give marines help they desperately need in small games, and make a handicap for the larger games they tend to win most often.
I think that the two changes suggested in this thread that would have the most positive effect on gameplay are:
A: Reduce turret cost. In 1.04 TFs went down from 25 to 20, a good start, but 5 res off of a 120+ res outpost isn't much. Make turrets cost 16 or 15. That means you can get like one more turret for every five. This will just give these outward posts like one more turret to shoot at the skulk, or a welder to heal them.
B: Prototype lab turret upgrade. I like this one. I've always thought the P-type lab needed more stuff in it. A 40-50 res upgrade that made the turrets track better (maybe spin faster?) would be very good. Part of the reason a skulk can strafe around a turret or run through a farm is cuz the turrets don't track too fast. Make them spin faster and i guarentee you'll see a noticeable impact on the effect of your turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both sound like good ideas IMHO... But on the other hand, the Marine side is designed for defense (the players), so in some way this sides buildings should be less offensive & more offensive (siege turret), and the marine buildings more defensive (OC's are a **** to take down...) as skulks are quite offensive. Make sense?
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Sounds good to me, you kill a D chamber (and only 3 are up), aliens lose a level of carapace. I always thought taking down Obs and Arms Lab should be more important to the game, as it stands, once the Arms Lab finishes upgrading to full, most GOOD comms, recycle it for res. You should lose the abilities on marines if you lose the buildings, would make the lone skulk base rush better, would balance out bigger games more, damn, I like this idea, lol.
Notice to all comms- build two arms labs, upgrade quickly, then recycle them both. Happy hunting.
(ontopic) Turrets are going to be tweaked in 1.1; my personal opinion is to remove their dependence on the Factory. We'll let you know.
(edit) The argument that 3 turrets + 1 player = HARD is actually a point AGAINST the current system. Flayra doesn't want NS to be a passive game - it may be fun, but not as fun as assaulting a hive. Flay would rather not force either team to NOT be where the action is.
Didn't know that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(ontopic) Turrets are going to be tweaked in 1.1; my personal opinion is to remove their dependence on the Factory. We'll let you know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you guys best upgrade skulk bite to about 500 damage, or Turret farms will never fall, just my feeling on it...
sentries are a joke now.
all I can say is "You reap what you sow" - enjoy it guys