ns2_hera2018
Hi,
Following this topic, I honored my promise releasing an ns2_hera
https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/140321/port-ns2-hera/p1
WORKSHOP LINK =
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1550262479
Here are the boring informations :
Creators :
Changelog
Overview (updated 10/11/2018) :
Screenshots :
I won't improve this version so much since It has been original imported from NS1 trough Blender ( https://www.blender.org/ ). Technicaly, they are tons of duplicate line & point, and lots of points aren't even in the grid, making it very painfull to work on some areas.
I may plan doing a new ns_hera from schratch, or at least a descent Layout (I've drawn a new layout on small tile sheet). Oh by the wait if you know a way to contact Janos & Alibi who started to remade ns_hera (but abandonned) I'm interested.
I know the map isn't perfect, thus I spend a lot of time on it (200 hours I guess ...to be honest I tough I would give up !), but I hope you'll be happy to play a descent version of hera in NS2...!!
Don't hesitate to post constructive feedback here or on the steam workshop page (I don't use discord sorry).
WORKSHOP LINK :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1549261792
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1550262479
Following this topic, I honored my promise releasing an ns2_hera
https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/140321/port-ns2-hera/p1
WORKSHOP LINK =
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1550262479
Here are the boring informations :
Creators :
ns_hera by... ns2_hera for Diamondgammer server (+ NS1 mod) by Avoca & Rusty : ns2_hera_2018 for NS2.0 by Xale (NS1Player)
Changelog
This changelog apply to Rusty's version released ~4 years ago
- April 2018 : Beginning of the project
- September 2018 : Beta Testing
- October 2018 : Released !
#### Changelog ####
ReadyRoom :
- Removed Diamonds
- Added some Ready_Room_Player
- added some lights
- added ambiance sounds
Entities :
- ns2_gamerules : Now in center of readyroom
- skybox : Now in center of readyroom
- path_meshing : Created in center of readyroom
-
- Added power_points for each room
- Added some Commander_camera
Light :
- Extra Light for some rooms especially Entrance & Reception / Maintenance Corridor
RT Change :
- Added a node in Maintenance Corridor (like in old NS)
- Processing node is now downstairs (N2 behavior)
- Marine start RT replaced inside as in NS1.0 (NB : outside is blocked by a force field now sorry)
- Holoroom has 2 ress nodes (like original ns_hera) but one is not working and obstructed by a piece of metal. This is to help rookie understand this is an important place in the map (for PG for example), but I didn't want a double ress here (or I should have delete Cargo...).
Gameplay :
- removed some ladders and replaces by stairs or blocks. Everything has been tested so that the drifter could sort it out
- Added a small corridor in processing otherwise Ventilation 3-C was a bit too isolated
- blocked Waste near entrance with crates (since they're is no weldable door marine would rush/ARC this hive too fast from Marine Start)
- added an access on Ventilation-3C for the drifter to be able to go up/down
- Alpha some props so the commander has a cleaner view
- Removed the floor door in cargo and as Onos would get stucked and won't be able to go up
- Added armory for Marines at start because it's a hard map for marine I think.
Graphics :
- Entrance & Reception remade a bit (one of my favorite part of the map)
- Reworked some Textures on Data Core Delta
- Added a planet prop in Holoroom
- Waterfall texture replaced with more realistic water texture
- Lots of little stuff......
Optimisation :
- Absolutely no "OcclusionGeometry" was in the map (Crappy FPS you guess...) so I added them. It's still far from perfect. But the map doesn't use much props so the framerate seems ok.
- Remove some point/lines, hope this will help too
Sounds :
- added some ambiant sound, always helps
Possible gameplay changes possible (depending on win/lose ratio) :
- Making Data Core Delta defaut hive for alien.
- Remove Cargo RT and put double RT in holoroom
- Remove crates in Marines start, opening it to Cargo
Known problem :
- Still some pathing for Drifter/Mac (fixed)
- Vents doesn't appear in the overview
Overview (updated 10/11/2018) :
Screenshots :
I won't improve this version so much since It has been original imported from NS1 trough Blender ( https://www.blender.org/ ). Technicaly, they are tons of duplicate line & point, and lots of points aren't even in the grid, making it very painfull to work on some areas.
I may plan doing a new ns_hera from schratch, or at least a descent Layout (I've drawn a new layout on small tile sheet). Oh by the wait if you know a way to contact Janos & Alibi who started to remade ns_hera (but abandonned) I'm interested.
I know the map isn't perfect, thus I spend a lot of time on it (200 hours I guess ...to be honest I tough I would give up !), but I hope you'll be happy to play a descent version of hera in NS2...!!
Don't hesitate to post constructive feedback here or on the steam workshop page (I don't use discord sorry).
WORKSHOP LINK :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1549261792
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1550262479
Comments
Changelog (28/10/2018) :
Changelog (10/11/2018)
Changelog (17/11/2018)
Need Help
There are also some layout issues. Marines should not be able to immediately reach the center of the map. There seems to be overconnectivity issues in some areas and also LOS issues. It seems there are unfair ARCing spots for Data Core and Ventilation. The way Archiving is connected to only one other room will lead to problems. The way Ventilation is connected also seems problematic. There is a general lack of vents in this map.
Perhaps I should change my mini-map extent you mean ?
This is more a personal feeling about NS2 in general. Amonst all, marines have 2 big issue : if they start with 1 IP, they are fucked : a 2nd IP cost Waaaaaay too much. 2nd issue is RT that cost 10 in marine, they cost 8 in aliens. Knowing hera for a long time, this has always been seen as an alien-favourite map even in the well balanced NS3.2.
Thus, the armory starts unbuild.
They don't. I have blocked the path with crates (you didn't launch the map did you ?
Not sure by what you mean by LOS ?
I don't think for Datacore because theyre is different level on processing (but will test)
You're right I should test for Ventilation
Wow I just realised they don't appear in the overview. If someone has tip to get them appear, give me some tip or links please !
Here is the vent corrected overview (blue means it's blocked) :
Here are a few little tips based on this forum thread so far
1. LoS means "Line of sight"
2. To add vents to a map, add the props + geo used to a layer called "Vents" (no quotes)
3. I would seriously suggest you don't have any structures for either team at the start of a round that aren't typically in all the other maps, regardless of your beliefs about balance, it will create inconsistency between maps and make the game as a whole more difficult to learn for newer players.
4. If you don't want something to appear on the minimap, add the geo to a group called "CommanderInvisible" (no quotes) and select the props and set the value of commander alpha to 0.
(Note, groups and layers are different things and perform different functions.)
Welcome to the mapping community, its great to have more new faces around!
As Kash says: Everything inside of minimap extends is rendered for the minimap. If you want things to not appear on the minimap, you place the geo in the CommanderInvisible group and put commander alpha value to 0 on props. If something is outside of the playable area nad just there for visuals, it should not be seen on the minimap because it is an unneccessary cluttering of the view. It is also something the commander does not need to be able to see.
And yea, there must be some consistency between maps in general. Personal opinions on balance should not affect the map. Besides that, balance changes often, and you want your map to be playable in NS2 in a general sense, not only for this specific build.
I am sorry, I didn't launch the map yet, I gave feedback based only of the minimap you show. I will take a run around on the map as soon as I can.
On the map it looks like the pathway from Marine Start to the center is not blocked. If it is, I hope it also blocked for aliens. Because inaccessible vents leading into marine start, especially if marines need such a long way to get to the other side, is frustrating and should be avoided.
Either way, it is either a vent and should be marked as that, or it is a dead end and those should be avoided in general too.
I will test the ARCing spot in Processing. But honestly I can't see how this could be fair with this layout.
My feeling is, this map looks a bit too much NS1, and not enough NS2.
I think that vents and pathing geo are layers instead of groups is very weird and can only be confusing for new mappers.
But yea, everythign in the layer called Vent will render in those orange vent colors on the minimap. If you want a vent to be in addition commander invisible however, you need to put it into a group (!) CommanderInvisibleVents.
I am glad too see new mappers aswell. Looking forward playing this map. Make sure it is play ready so it can be played at SCC. I also highly recommend you join SCC on Discord, it is much easier and faster to get assistance in mapping there.
Oh and a general advice: There are two very helpful tools in the mapping editor under the Entitiy category:
arc_range_circle will show the exact range of an ARC.
relevancy_range_circle will show you the exact range of LOS, meaning, how far things get rendered. You probably know how players disappear in North Tunnels on Tram if you stand in South Tunnels because they are too far away. This should be avoided and that circle entity helps you to see in the editor how far the relevancy distance is.
Yeah I figured this but not sure how it applies in NS2...!
I already have that... strange...
I understand but hera is very special. Thus it's very easy to edit for further version.
Ok not sure what I don't want on the minimap. Maybe outside i'd give a try
Thanks !
For the moment it seems ok
Yeah I totally got your point, but I'm really fed up and frustrated with game balance. I always feel playing "hard" when playing marines...
I blocked a door with crates that's why. Props are easy to add/remove.
Well I tryed, it arcs. But I think "it's in the game". Central hive has an impressive avantage in general, especially if it's the first hive. so it's not unfair to nerf it a bit. Arcs cost much and processing is hard to keep for marine I think. So it's fair.
(For Ventilation you were right, I moved the hive a bit !)
ns_veil too
mm I got to dig that. My Vents are already in a "Vents" Group
I already tryed Discord and failed, really not used to it.
Yeah I found arc_range_circle !
I think my LOS is ok on the map. The rooms aren't big.
Did you build the map using builder?
You don't want anything on the minimap that isn't in the playable area for example. The complete outside area shouldn't be on the minimap.
Ok I'll try that now !
Do I need to check something here ?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1550262479
EDIT :
Changelog :
is there another way to get the ModID than going to this folder ?
C:\Users\XXXX\AppData\Roaming\Natural Selection 2\Workshop
Ok it's m5c6720cf
I'm on it what's your Name on discord ?
EDIT :
I removed those lua line on gamesetup :
<game> <name>ns2</name> <description>ns2_hera2018</description> [b] <client>lua/ModClient.lua</client> <predict>lua/ModPredict.lua</predict> <server>lua/ModServer.lua</server> <loading>lua/ModLoading.lua</loading>[/b] </game>... and it works...!!! what a surprise...
https://discord.gg/RSyVNu Join here
ok
I can't see any preview.jpg
EDIT : This is ok
EDIT2 : So so far everything is fine except that Vents doesn't appears on minimap
This is a Vent near Archiving :
.. and if your a mapper to tell me what's wrong with those vents... -_-
Also tell me about performance. I may change layout a bit to physically separate Cargo from Marine Start, altough you can't access it because the door is blocked by crates. This would allow better understand of the layout and i'll be able to add a big occlusiongeometry.
I suspect it happens, because you also have a "vent" layer.
Try this:
Mark the vent layer so you select all the parts in it. Then uncheck the vent layer they are in. Then uncheck and recheck the Vents layer, so the vent-geo is only in that layer!
Do the same for the other vent layer. After the vent layers are empty and everything is only in Vents, delete the two vent layers.
The whole central and northern area is basically a mess. There are far too many connections. Examples: Northern Corridor to Hologram has 2 connections. Hologram to Processing has 2 connections. The long hallway between Maintenance, Cargo Storage and Processing is too narrow, too long and connects too many things. Ventilation to Maintenance is a maze with too many routes to count. The map generally feels very "compressed" on the North side. Because of the low distance between Ventilation and Delta you put the connections between them over Processing which looks like a band aid and creates a lot of problems. Archieving is not properly integrated into the map. It has 3 seperate entrances which are all next to each other and lead outside of the map. Cargo Storage has also a bad integration. Aside from that long hallway (which is basically a giant 180° turn you take if you use that from Cargo) it is basically a giant dead end.
The RT placement is a bit weird. There is too much value in holding the center of the map with 3 RTs. The RTs on the North side also seem to be much closer to each other than on the South side. Also the marine naturals are very inconsistent to each other because one is a lot closer than the other.
In terms of room layout, there are often issues with too much level over level. Not only is it bad for commanders, it is also bad for gameplay. Processing is a maze with no clear path and no clear ways between the different height levels which are too many anyway. The room between Marine Start and Maintenance Corridor has waaaaaaay too much verticality and that should be avoided, it plays just frustratingly and it is much faster going down than going up.
Do you consider this map greybox? Because there are a lot of issues with too empty rooms and very simplistic geo, which is kinda expected in a greybox map.
Northern Corridor also should be some kind of room because right now it is a narrow carridor which doesn't offer good gameplay around RTs. The reason of existance for corridors is more to connect between rooms.
Ok will do !
I think you didn't get the point of ns2_hera2018
So ns2_hera2018 has two main goals :
- bringing a playable ns_hera to NS2
- testing the vanilla gameplay of this map for maybe a later ns_hera build from scratch (not necessarly by me)
So I won't improve MUCH the layout in this version (the geometry is very messy). On all that you say, I tend to agree on some points, and to disagree on other. Altough your comments are interesting, I think you are transposing too much the "what works on official map" & "what should be done" to this map. It's always interesting to have new layout and stuff. As I said, as long as you don't make stupid stuff like putting all 3 hives in the same room, or don't separate them with a least 1 RT, it's ok. Thus, it's an NS1 map, so the layout should be -somewhat- ok for NS2 (= it's not a CS map transposed to NS2 for example
Welcome to Hera
One is up, it used to be some kind of vent
Welcome to hera²
The compression is due to the fact NS1 map couldn't have been larger because of the HL1 engine. Yeah that connection is kind of "band aid" but no choice, thus it give an interesting layout.
Yeah I tend to agree. Note : There use to be a weldable door between Entrance & Reception and Archiving
Totally Agree, not sure what to do with this part of the map. Cargo used to have a Weldable door to Entrance & Reception.
I don't think so. You won't hold these 3 RTS. I think the best PG placement are Holoroom & that place where you could siege Ventilation before correction (pretty sure it use to have a specific name, I need to check this..!). Of course it's always interesting to have a PG in the center of the map for that reason
Again it's an Hera thing. If I remember well, Maintenance Corridor use to have an RT, then was removed in NS2.0 due to cargo storage beeing directly accessible. I decided to put it again, because I blocked again the way to Cargo storage. It's true that it's closer from Entrance & Reception, maybe I should have rework the giant room with stairs here. BUT from a different perspective, Maintenance Corridor has very poor light, giving an advantage for aliens.
Yeah of course I noticed this map has too much up and down. Most of remake (like Ns_nothing or ns_origin) have smaller up/down.
So as you understood, they're has never really been a "greybox" ns2_hera2018. FYI I Started a build from skratch an ns2_hera2019 wich is greyboxed
If you want you can draw a layout on small tiles paper. I've done that, will post this later I guess.
I finally figure it out. There was another Layer called "Marine corri smthing" that took the Vents functions of the overview (that's why I had some Yellow in maintenance Corridor". I guess it's a SPARK bug, so I removed that layer and also all Vent/Vents layer close editor and create a new Vents layer = now it work !!
Here is the new layout :
Changelog
Don't hesitate to give me feedback.
By the way it seems I have a Light_spot problem in vent_cavity. I'm pretty sure it's a DX11 problem because it was working well when I had the game in DX9
I need help to resolve this :
Just make sure the lights are within the location entity
they are