Update 320 - Merry Gorgemas! - Natural Selection 2

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  • NousWandererNousWanderer Members Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Posts: 258 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    -Keep exo cost changes
    -Go forward with planned mobility/armor readjustments
    -Return the dual-firing ability to railgun exos, but adjust time-to-dual-charge to balance (example: rails charge at .75 speed when both are charging simultaneously or something)
    -Slightly buff umbra duration
    -Significantly buff umbra effect vs. rails (between 60-80% damage reduction)
    -Rails diminished by umbra lose penetration effect
    -Introduce 1x umbra puff per crag healwave activation
    Yojimbo
  • KatzenfleischKatzenfleisch Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2014-03-21 Member: 194881Posts: 192 Advanced user
    A few suggestions too:
    - Block any bullets going throw an umbra cloud instead of only aliens in it
    (or) - increase the area covered by the umbra cloud (it's quite hard to umbra entities without flying right if not in front to umbra them)
    (or) - large / long lasting umbra clouds but reduced damage reduction. With the cost of umbra a lerk willing to cover teammates properly is almost forced to spend all of its stamina into that.
    (or) - umbra is dropped like the old spore, as a constant stream below you (which would ease a lot protecting friendly units, so you do not have to mind about where to aim the cloud, just what's below you)

    - replace healwave with mucous shield ? (or add it)
    - bring back the old shade 'ink' with alien hallucinations effects ?
    Faded mod ( Forum Thread - Steam Workshop - Mod Repository - Mod Guide )
    Defense mod ( Forum Thread - Steam Workshop - Mod Repository - [url=""]Mod Guide (comming soon)[/url] )
    FlameSentry mod ( Forum Thread - Steam Workshop )
  • NintendowsNintendows Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Posts: 380 Advanced user
    If we're throwing out suggestions for fairness of game mechanics:
    • Make an audio and visual cue to other players that railguns are charging and how much they have charged
    • Make projectile collide with level geometry so it can't shoot around corners
    • Allow railguns to shoot at the skybox
    • Shoot railgun shots where the crosshair is aiming so you can actually hit cysts and other smaller targets
    • Fix tracer and decal so it matches the size of the projectile
    As for balance:
    • Decrease charge time of railgun exos so they have okay DPS, but also let you hold your charge longer so you have more than 200ms to aim at max charge.
    • Slow railgun exo movement speed while charging so they are easier to hit with bilebomb and spikes
    • Now that railgun shots go where you aim, decrease railgun projectile size from 0.3 to 0.2 meters so aliens have a chance to dodge their shots
    Stark
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    Nintendows wrote: »
    [*] Allow railguns to shoot at the skybox

    Ok I'm confused.. what would be the point of this???

  • HandschuhHandschuh Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Posts: 387 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Handschuh wrote: »
    The thing is once I see railguns up I just dislike playing the game in general... the game has many issues like Pingdelay and stuff... with that railgun is just unfun, especially with the ability to shoot through structures.
    Even if you increase the loadup for railgun like 4-5 seconds with a crazy sound which can be heard by everyone to know when it shooots... that would be so fun and awesome BUT it will never work as long as there is lagcompensation

    Dodging by looking at the exo to see where the exo is aiming and react accordingly doesn't work in ns2, since the lagcompensation let's you see what's already over... compared to ns1... even if you play on a server with ping lower than 50 all the time...

    People blame lag compensation as the source for railgun kills, but I believe most of the frustration comes from the size of the projectile, which is 0.3 meters. Lerks and skulks have more than double the cross-sectional area against a railgunner, making them almost as large as an onos to a rifle. This "size" also applies to being shot around walls. I've made a graphic of an approximation of their hitboxes to visualize it:
    iRphPOK.jpg

    It sounds convincing, but that's just the tip of the iceberg...

    1)
    The lagcompensation means that I have a lag and shoot, the lerk can die 3 seconds later, even though my connection is otherwise superb.
    This is frustrating... the fact that the package of this shoot is not dropped... These lags happen, especially if you play between EU and US, they are pretty commong... maybe not always 3 seconds, but they happen. In halflife 1 if you had such a lag, the shots would be dropped as if they're just missed bullets -> end of story



    2) The minimum "lag" seems to be 100ms for every player... when I play on a good server 1 on 1 when both have 20ms ping you still have some kind of delay... from what I've read it's the 100ms delay you have... in HL1 everything was instant... It was never possible with that low Ping that I do for example my Killingswipe and AFTER that I get the damage from my killed enemy? wtf

    A fast-speed fps game lives on the factthat you need to react fast: That you are able to react on the thing the enemy does:

    That means, I see a railgun -> do 2-3spikes (20 damage?) -> I hear him charging up the railgun -> I escape and SURVIVE

    What happens in ns2:
    I see a railgun -> do 2-3 spikes -> don't hear the railgun charging up -> escape -> now hear the railgun charging while I'm around the corner -> I die around the second corner

    And this happens on an EU Server with 40 ping against someone else with 40 ping.... nice

    Hitcone my ass



    Same Issue I already explained with gorgespits - what I've tried (and this worked for me perfectly in NS1, but not anymore in ns2!)




    I stand like 50 meters way from a gorge who is spitting... he is strafing left and right and spits like that



    Gorge: (Upper Lane leftspit, down lane - rightspit: X are the Spits midair)
    Remark: The X Spits are from the View of the Marine
    ---X---X---X---X---X---X
    -X---X---X---X---X---X

    What I tried as a marine I strafe between those two points where the gorge is spitting:


    From my PoV When I tried to Dance between those Points (M = Marine) I always got hit:

    ---X---X---X---X---X--M--X
    -X---X---X---X---X---X---

    0,5 Seconds Later:

    -X---X---X---X---X---X---
    ---X---X---X---X---X--M--X

    At that Scenario I it looked like the spits fly right by me but I always got hit... it's like an 2d-action-mario-rpg with the fact that I cannot dodge


    Second Test:

    -X---X---X---X---X---XM---
    ---X---X---X---X---X---X--

    0,5 Seconds Later:

    ---X---X---X---X---X---X--
    -X---X---X---X---X---XM---


    At that Scenario I didnt get hit, even though I ran Into the fucking spit and I dodged it like that?

    Hell ya - what a Netcode




    That's just my view, in comparison to the halflifeengine


    Post edited by Handschuh on
    StarkRevanCorana
  • NintendowsNintendows Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Posts: 380 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    [*] Allow railguns to shoot at the skybox

    Ok I'm confused.. what would be the point of this???

    The current mechanics prevent the railgun from firing if you don't have bullet-collidable geometry somewhere behind your cursor - such as the skybox. So if a lerk is flying in crevice on ns2_summit and there is only skybox behind them, a railgun cannot shoot them, even if the crosshair is directly on the lerk.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    The TSF has been sued by other companies and people for rogue railgun projectiles leaving the combat areas, shooting someone's property instead, all the way across the county. In some one case a satellite was damaged beyond repair and some space ships parked in orbit have been damaged

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

    VetinariNordicNintendowsantou
  • murphyt4murphyt4 Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-12-12 Member: 24297Posts: 131 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    I now have more experience with the post-bug flamethrower. It does feel better than the first version. I think I might like it stronger still, but at a higher cost. I don't know where that line is though. Does anyone else think that there is still some room to increase the strength of the flamethrower without it being the uber noob tube it was with the bug?

    Definitely, I hardly see anyone use it. Feels too weak.
  • NintendowsNintendows Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Posts: 380 Advanced user
    murphyt4 wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    I now have more experience with the post-bug flamethrower. It does feel better than the first version. I think I might like it stronger still, but at a higher cost. I don't know where that line is though. Does anyone else think that there is still some room to increase the strength of the flamethrower without it being the uber noob tube it was with the bug?

    Definitely, I hardly see anyone use it. Feels too weak.

    It's currently too weak against structures due to a bug causing all the damage to be Normal instead of Flamethrower or Flame. I've been informed that this will likely be fixed in the next patch.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    We are speaking about PvP Nin.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • NintendowsNintendows Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Posts: 380 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    We are speaking about PvP Nin.

    It's also too weak against skulks and lerks because it was supposed to be dealing a form of Light damage against players, Nordic.
    Nordic
  • HandschuhHandschuh Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Posts: 387 Advanced user
    It's strong against PG grinds since you hit all at onnce or against lerks ig someone else get's the lerk kinda low.. it's hard to calculate how much damage I can take in order to survive
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Part of this thread discussed developer communication. I think I will stick this here rather than starting a new thread.

    This is an example of communication from the developers of another game after a very unpopular patch with a balance change that the community really didn't like. The devs put out a patch that fixed the problem the following week.
    Hi everyone,

    While most changes in our latest 1.13 update were appreciated, some gameplay tweaks didn’t go down well with the community, who felt they negatively impacted the overall depth and feel of the game.
    We are very committed to making Absolver as balanced and as interesting as possible, which is why we made these changes in the first place – they seemed to make sense to us (in theory and in internal playtests), but some issues came to light when the Absolver community actually tested the update. A lot of comments were made online, and although we were unhappy that some changes were badly reviewed, we were also very impressed by the quality and precision of the feedback received! After a few days and some internal discussions, we decided to correct some of these changes as soon as possible, which is why the 1.14 update came live so fast.
    ...
    Source

    I was struck by how pleasant this was to read. The point I am trying to raise is how subtly different this dev response is from the typical UWE response, but I can not put my finger on what the difference is. I am raising the topic back up for discussion.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Part of this thread discussed developer communication. I think I will stick this here rather than starting a new thread.

    This is an example of communication from the developers of another game after a very unpopular patch with a balance change that the community really didn't like. The devs put out a patch that fixed the problem the following week.
    Hi everyone,

    While most changes in our latest 1.13 update were appreciated, some gameplay tweaks didn’t go down well with the community, who felt they negatively impacted the overall depth and feel of the game.
    We are very committed to making Absolver as balanced and as interesting as possible, which is why we made these changes in the first place – they seemed to make sense to us (in theory and in internal playtests), but some issues came to light when the Absolver community actually tested the update. A lot of comments were made online, and although we were unhappy that some changes were badly reviewed, we were also very impressed by the quality and precision of the feedback received! After a few days and some internal discussions, we decided to correct some of these changes as soon as possible, which is why the 1.14 update came live so fast.
    ...
    Source

    I was struck by how pleasant this was to read. The point I am trying to raise is how subtly different this dev response is from the typical UWE response, but I can not put my finger on what the difference is. I am raising the topic back up for discussion.

    Subtly? The typical UWE response is to dismiss, obfuscate and deny. And that's only when they can't ignore it. ;)

    You know, like this glorious post?
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
    lmao @ removing simultaneous usage of left and right railwhile keeping them assigned to left and right click, no small feat managing to make it feel even clunkier than before hahaha

    Handschuh wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Handschuh wrote: »
    The thing is once I see railguns up I just dislike playing the game in general... the game has many issues like Pingdelay and stuff... with that railgun is just unfun, especially with the ability to shoot through structures.
    Even if you increase the loadup for railgun like 4-5 seconds with a crazy sound which can be heard by everyone to know when it shooots... that would be so fun and awesome BUT it will never work as long as there is lagcompensation

    Dodging by looking at the exo to see where the exo is aiming and react accordingly doesn't work in ns2, since the lagcompensation let's you see what's already over... compared to ns1... even if you play on a server with ping lower than 50 all the time...

    People blame lag compensation as the source for railgun kills, but I believe most of the frustration comes from the size of the projectile, which is 0.3 meters. Lerks and skulks have more than double the cross-sectional area against a railgunner, making them almost as large as an onos to a rifle. This "size" also applies to being shot around walls. I've made a graphic of an approximation of their hitboxes to visualize it:
    iRphPOK.jpg

    It sounds convincing, but that's just the tip of the iceberg...

    1)
    The lagcompensation means that I have a lag and shoot, the lerk can die 3 seconds later, even though my connection is otherwise superb.
    This is frustrating... the fact that the package of this shoot is not dropped... These lags happen, especially if you play between EU and US, they are pretty commong... maybe not always 3 seconds, but they happen. In halflife 1 if you had such a lag, the shots would be dropped as if they're just missed bullets -> end of story



    2) The minimum "lag" seems to be 100ms for every player... when I play on a good server 1 on 1 when both have 20ms ping you still have some kind of delay... from what I've read it's the 100ms delay you have... in HL1 everything was instant... It was never possible with that low Ping that I do for example my Killingswipe and AFTER that I get the damage from my killed enemy? wtf

    A fast-speed fps game lives on the factthat you need to react fast: That you are able to react on the thing the enemy does:

    That means, I see a railgun -> do 2-3spikes (20 damage?) -> I hear him charging up the railgun -> I escape and SURVIVE

    What happens in ns2:
    I see a railgun -> do 2-3 spikes -> don't hear the railgun charging up -> escape -> now hear the railgun charging while I'm around the corner -> I die around the second corner

    And this happens on an EU Server with 40 ping against someone else with 40 ping.... nice

    Hitcone my ass



    Same Issue I already explained with gorgespits - what I've tried (and this worked for me perfectly in NS1, but not anymore in ns2!)




    I stand like 50 meters way from a gorge who is spitting... he is strafing left and right and spits like that



    Gorge: (Upper Lane leftspit, down lane - rightspit: X are the Spits midair)
    Remark: The X Spits are from the View of the Marine
    ---X---X---X---X---X---X
    -X---X---X---X---X---X

    What I tried as a marine I strafe between those two points where the gorge is spitting:


    From my PoV When I tried to Dance between those Points (M = Marine) I always got hit:

    ---X---X---X---X---X--M--X
    -X---X---X---X---X---X---

    0,5 Seconds Later:

    -X---X---X---X---X---X---
    ---X---X---X---X---X--M--X

    At that Scenario I it looked like the spits fly right by me but I always got hit... it's like an 2d-action-mario-rpg with the fact that I cannot dodge


    Second Test:

    -X---X---X---X---X---XM---
    ---X---X---X---X---X---X--

    0,5 Seconds Later:

    ---X---X---X---X---X---X--
    -X---X---X---X---X---XM---


    At that Scenario I didnt get hit, even though I ran Into the fucking spit and I dodged it like that?

    Hell ya - what a Netcode




    That's just my view, in comparison to the halflifeengine


    What? an accurate on point comment in this forum? (I mean other than me) but yes shit coding = shit engine = shit game. No matter how ORIGINAL, how many GREAT IDEAS, if you dont have the foundation, gg rip.

    barely 20 tickrate lol it works with duct tape

  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    Honestly if you can't fire both railguns you might as well only have the single.
    Nordic
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
  • NintendowsNintendows Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Posts: 380 Advanced user
    Honestly if you can't fire both railguns you might as well only have the single.

    Not true. It's higher DPS to now half-charge each rail by about 5% with dual railguns.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
    Yes true having dual railgun but not being able to fire both is retarded and utterly clunky. It already was clunky of course but it takes it to new heights.

    DPS is totally irrelevant it can be tuned independently either way.

    On top of that since rail exos are naturally more vulnerable to melee having the claw in the other hand would also make for a more balanced loadout



    Post edited by RevanCorana on
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Members Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Posts: 258 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
    -Keep exo cost changes
    -Go forward with planned mobility/armor readjustments
    -Return the dual-firing ability to railgun exos, but adjust time-to-dual-charge to balance (example: rails charge at .75 speed when both are charging simultaneously or something)
    -Slightly buff umbra duration
    -Significantly buff umbra effect vs. rails (between 60-80% damage reduction)
    -Rails diminished by umbra lose penetration effect
    -Introduce 1x umbra puff per crag healwave activation

    If dual railguns aren't coming back in some better balanced form, then consider giving the railgun exo a high tech shield in the free arm. This would introduce interesting mechanics, be aesthetically awesome, and significantly differentiate the railgun exo from the dual-mini. Space marines with lances and shields? Yes, please.
    • Shield operates using an energy mechanic. Like jetpack fuel, shield energy recharges over time. Shield energy only depletes when the shield is actually absorbing damage.
    • Detrimental shield mechanics: railgun cannot be used while shield is deployed (perhaps power is rerouted to the shield or something; insert whatever lore-explanation you prefer), switching from shield has a very brief cooldown before the rail can begin charging, shield use lowers exo speed and decreases thruster recharge speed.
    • Beneficial shield mechanics: shield can be aimed, offers a lot of front-facing surface area coverage, allows exo to perform a short range shield bash, dramatically reduces spike damage, blocks parasites, and absorbs/fizzles bilebombs which directly hit the shield.
    • Adjust time-to-charge and damage-per-charge on the single arm railgun to establish balance. Lerks should never be one-tapped at full health, for instance.
    • Pair this change with the aforementioned "make umbra way more effective vs. rails" proposal in order to create an interesting dynamic between the exo and the lerk, thereby increasing engagement duration.
    • Crazy idea for alien-marine interplay: Trello currently has a card for upcoming onos charge stampede changes. This will allow a charging onos to push marines and exos out of the way. One suggestion on the card is "exos need to be moved much less". This could be tied into the shield mechanic specifically, allowing railgun exos to position themselves for a block: when the shield is out, an onos charging into it runs the risk of having their charge momentum significantly reduced at a cost to the exo positioned for interference (rapidly depleting the shield's energy). Allow the shield exo to set a screen/pick, basically.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Members Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Posts: 258 Advanced user
    Dual railguns on a space mech - uber realistic.
    One railgun and a shield on a space mech - get da fuck outta heaaaaaa.
    Kouji_San
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
    Dual railguns on a space mech - uber realistic.
    One railgun and a shield on a space mech - get da fuck outta heaaaaaa.

    Well obviously the mech needs a sword and shield!

    I'm sorry, a space mech, space sword and space shield 15.gif

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

    NousWanderer
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Members Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Posts: 258 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Well obviously the mech needs a sword and shield!

    That's the elegance of it, yo... the railgun has all that lance-like penetrating goodness already baked into the design.
    Kouji_San
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
    Just bring back the melee claw in the off hand, and be done with. The model already exists, no extra work, just tweak the damage value, problem solved.

    And as I said the rail is kinda weak in melee so it makes sense to have a versatility backup. For the minigun it's already versatile. And beside the overheat mechanic there is actually fun. The dual rail always was clunky.
    Vetinari
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Members Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Posts: 258 Advanced user
    The claw always sucked.
    IronHorse
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    The claw always sucked.

    Rocketfist?
    BAB-5DzCYAAdKLy.jpg

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

    The_Welsh_WizardRevanCorana
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
    The claw always sucked.

    Increase damage? Speed up animation? Increase range?

    A great touch would be to adjust the dps so that dual minigun dps matches the railgun exos if and only if they also use their claw.
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