We need a Combat/Self Defense update
somerandomsurvivor
Join Date: 2016-12-28 Member: 225606Members
Join Date: 2016-12-28 Member: 225606Members
So I'm going to start with the simple why, although its pretty obvious. There is no real defense early to mid game, and with the coming of the sea emperor, full installment of the sea dragon, and the already existent Reaper leviathan we need some real combat choices for a few reasons. The biggest one is to actually keep new players. Getting killed by the sea leviathan sucks, but y'know what sucks more? finding out there are 0 real ways to kill the damn thing. I can't tell you how many people I know immediately dropped the game the moment they found out there is no way to not just stave off hostile creatures, but not even a way to aspire to kill anything large. The other big reason is that we're getting obvious boss monsters, and you can't put bosses in the game and not give players a way to kill them. I'm sure this has been said 1000 times but let it be said 1000 times more until it's actually implemented because it is a giant hole that is turning people off more than most other problems. The simplest way I can think of saying this, and feel free to quote this one: Yeah I can make big bases and ships but The goal is to kill the a-hole who ate you like a breakfast burrito, and right now there is no way for this burrito to fight back.
Giant explanation of obvious why out of the way, time for the ideas.
Spear: Simple how this one works. maybe titanium, and creeper vine sample. Easy to craft, easy to understand. Longer reach than the survival knife, better damage than the survival knife, but doesn't get resources like the survival knife.
Spear Gun: This would be the introduction to ranged weapons. Again very early game weapon so no fancy electronics per say. Ideas for crafting: Spear, Crashfish Powder, Titanium # (im thinking 2). Good early introduction into mass producing something, in this case spears to actually fight back against creatures, and they are recoverable ammo (until they break).
Charged Spear: Battery and copper wire with a spear. Upgraded spear, simple as that. kinda like a midpoint into fancier combat. Also fireable from speargun (maybe).
<span style="font-size:10px">These would be weapons involving more tech, and a few vehicle weapons. These are capable of fighting against your reaper leviathans and a hard but possible sea dragon fight, though still not a match vs the sea emperor. These would be your real key to exploring the crash zone. The purpose of the handhelds would be more to clean up the small predators far faster than early tier weapons / easier escape/self save against the reaper and dragon (but to see the dragons and emperor you'd need a vehicle so more the reaper)</span>
Photon laser pistol: Low powered laser weapon, requires batteries. Crafting idea: Lithium, Diamond, computer chip, titanium, battery. This isn't actually the best thing to go toe to toe vs a leviathan, but great for quickly cleaning up your average stalker in a shot or 2. A modification station can upgrade it to a photon beam pistol, which shoots a constant stream of photons instead of a single shot, dealing constant damage and even mining large veins (albeit slower than a prawn suit)
Compression Cannon: This sucker is a charge weapon that basically shoots a compressed shockwave ring that explodes on contact with something. This would easily stun a reaper leviathan and sea dragon while causing serious bodily harm, and straight up decimates smaller predators. The crafting I see is like a 3rd tier of the propulsion cannon. From propulsion, to repulsion, to this. (this means the modification station would be the main crafting point). This would be your main security against the big hunters, and even a way to kill them without a vehicle.
Plasma Pulse Arm Cannon: This is your main offense against anything in your prawn. A charge shot weapon that deals huge damage and stun, this thing would absolutely be your main fighting weapon, along with some torpedo ideas, against the big guys. The crafting would be something around 1 titanium/plasteel ingot, uranium rod, and a computer chip. The energy consumption I'd say about 1-2% a shot. It'd still take a solid 5-10 shots to kill just a reaper, but it could be charged and fired mid grab animation to knock you out of it. That alone is a real need for that pain in the a**.
Photon beam mounts: This is your seamoth's security piece. about 1% every 2 seconds or so for power use seems about right. This is similar to the beam pistol, but 2 of them and a bit stronger. Also a mining tool, but still slower than your prawn, it would be moderately useful vs the big predators, but it's main purpose is the fact that it almost instantly gets you out of a grab animation as you burn anything facing you quite efficiently. I don't know if I'd want the photon laser pistol in its crafting or not, but its a possible option. other crafting could include lithium, titanium/plasteel ingot, computer chip, lithium, ext.
Not sure on a name with this: Basically it's a charge mine. Crashfish powder, titanium, wiring kit. It attracts big predators away from you, (then blow up and scare the heck out of them) and if you're caught in a grab animation, you'd be able to use it to basically blow the inside of your would be burrito eater's mouth off and get out of there while it flees.
Torpedoes: Not sure about what the names/crafting ideas would be. The main ones I can think of are a classic explosive one, a sound burst one to cause fish to flee, and a short range/shock one that would be used to get out of grab animations. more damage than your photon/plasma weapons, but they're consumables.
Alien Ion cannon: Seamoth or prawn, take your pick. 2% or so power consumption on the ion power cells (about 10% on your normal power cell) per shot, but damage is just as beefed compared to your Plasma Pulse Arm Cannon (I'd say 10 shot a leviathan for the plasma). This thing could take down a reaper in 1-3 shots. This thing would be expensive at that power though. Ion crystals, uranium, really late game expense and maybe even a custom building station for this and the other weapon.
Energy Sphere Torpedoes (WIP name): When shot, these torpedoes create a giant, lingering sphere on contact that deals constant DoT damage while also creating a decent shield that would slow down/block anything trying to get through. (I'm not sure what it'd be crafted with, besides that it would be close to the ion cannon).
Giant explanation of obvious why out of the way, time for the ideas.
<span style="font-size:18px">Early Game</span>
<span style="font-size:10px">The start of the game is the time to reel people in and get them hooked, and combat is no different. Get some basic weapons for some satisfying hunting, bit of a fight against things like stalkers, near impossible vs reapers/bosses. The main theme of these is that they are not for vehicles. Simply put they are handheld security for actual defense vs stalkers and the likes of hostile enemies.</span>Spear: Simple how this one works. maybe titanium, and creeper vine sample. Easy to craft, easy to understand. Longer reach than the survival knife, better damage than the survival knife, but doesn't get resources like the survival knife.
Spear Gun: This would be the introduction to ranged weapons. Again very early game weapon so no fancy electronics per say. Ideas for crafting: Spear, Crashfish Powder, Titanium # (im thinking 2). Good early introduction into mass producing something, in this case spears to actually fight back against creatures, and they are recoverable ammo (until they break).
Charged Spear: Battery and copper wire with a spear. Upgraded spear, simple as that. kinda like a midpoint into fancier combat. Also fireable from speargun (maybe).
<span style="font-size:18px">Mid Game</span>
Photon laser pistol: Low powered laser weapon, requires batteries. Crafting idea: Lithium, Diamond, computer chip, titanium, battery. This isn't actually the best thing to go toe to toe vs a leviathan, but great for quickly cleaning up your average stalker in a shot or 2. A modification station can upgrade it to a photon beam pistol, which shoots a constant stream of photons instead of a single shot, dealing constant damage and even mining large veins (albeit slower than a prawn suit)
Compression Cannon: This sucker is a charge weapon that basically shoots a compressed shockwave ring that explodes on contact with something. This would easily stun a reaper leviathan and sea dragon while causing serious bodily harm, and straight up decimates smaller predators. The crafting I see is like a 3rd tier of the propulsion cannon. From propulsion, to repulsion, to this. (this means the modification station would be the main crafting point). This would be your main security against the big hunters, and even a way to kill them without a vehicle.
Plasma Pulse Arm Cannon: This is your main offense against anything in your prawn. A charge shot weapon that deals huge damage and stun, this thing would absolutely be your main fighting weapon, along with some torpedo ideas, against the big guys. The crafting would be something around 1 titanium/plasteel ingot, uranium rod, and a computer chip. The energy consumption I'd say about 1-2% a shot. It'd still take a solid 5-10 shots to kill just a reaper, but it could be charged and fired mid grab animation to knock you out of it. That alone is a real need for that pain in the a**.
Photon beam mounts: This is your seamoth's security piece. about 1% every 2 seconds or so for power use seems about right. This is similar to the beam pistol, but 2 of them and a bit stronger. Also a mining tool, but still slower than your prawn, it would be moderately useful vs the big predators, but it's main purpose is the fact that it almost instantly gets you out of a grab animation as you burn anything facing you quite efficiently. I don't know if I'd want the photon laser pistol in its crafting or not, but its a possible option. other crafting could include lithium, titanium/plasteel ingot, computer chip, lithium, ext.
Not sure on a name with this: Basically it's a charge mine. Crashfish powder, titanium, wiring kit. It attracts big predators away from you, (then blow up and scare the heck out of them) and if you're caught in a grab animation, you'd be able to use it to basically blow the inside of your would be burrito eater's mouth off and get out of there while it flees.
Torpedoes: Not sure about what the names/crafting ideas would be. The main ones I can think of are a classic explosive one, a sound burst one to cause fish to flee, and a short range/shock one that would be used to get out of grab animations. more damage than your photon/plasma weapons, but they're consumables.
<span style="font-size:18px">Late/End Game</span>
<span style="font-size:10px">When I say late/end I mean fight the emperor and decimate the dragon and leviathan. no handhelds here, just 2 major tools that make fighting the biggest creature planned to date a possible match.</span>Alien Ion cannon: Seamoth or prawn, take your pick. 2% or so power consumption on the ion power cells (about 10% on your normal power cell) per shot, but damage is just as beefed compared to your Plasma Pulse Arm Cannon (I'd say 10 shot a leviathan for the plasma). This thing could take down a reaper in 1-3 shots. This thing would be expensive at that power though. Ion crystals, uranium, really late game expense and maybe even a custom building station for this and the other weapon.
Energy Sphere Torpedoes (WIP name): When shot, these torpedoes create a giant, lingering sphere on contact that deals constant DoT damage while also creating a decent shield that would slow down/block anything trying to get through. (I'm not sure what it'd be crafted with, besides that it would be close to the ion cannon).
<span style="font-size:18px">In conclusion</span>
These are just some ideas of combat weapons that could be implemented in game, but overall we need a serious fighting chance so that people actually have a reason to do all this researching besides get bigger base and wait for story. Imagine the self satisfaction with decimating those burrito munching reaper leviathans, and the goals people would set with the ability to actually fight. Right now it is a major turn off to have no serious defense beyond literally keeping the enemies in place and running off, and it makes for a lackluster experience since after the first few encounters (especially when you "git gude" at using the stasis rifle) it goes from "O shit there's a leviathan" to "dammit another F***ing leviathan." in the most annoyed manner possible. Thoughts/ideas/criticism appreciated This discussion has been closed.
Comments
PS. Subnautica kinda teaches you, that without a gun - you are food.
A functioning torpedosystem, stasis rifle, repulsion canon and different knives shout be enough defence.
In my opinion if there has to be more defence there should be a more psychological or chemical system like drugs / pheromones which turns the dragon / reaper / stalker in a pacific animal for a short amount of time.
You can run. You can bypass. You can hide. You can stall. There are no boss monsters and the sea emperor is a PTSD-suffering cutie you should be ashamed for wanting to go toe-to-tentacle with. Not to mention that killed NPCs don't even stay dead. If you want a thrill, try getting a reaper or sea dragon scan.
this is not a shooter
the protagonist is more advanced, civilized
mankind learned not to shoot first and ask questions later, or just kill species cause they are in the way
you were talking about self defense in the topic but what you actually describe is a preemtive strike/attack
I agree on that we need upgrades on the defense side, hormones, sonic (f.e. : brownnote , jk
maybe even looting shield technology from the precursors or something
the developers made it pretty clear they don't want a killing spree cause that will be the result ( stating clearly we are not really advanced, if you give us the possibility most of us would use it for killing sprees)
This is real sharks behavior:
"as a general rule, sharks are not aggressive toward divers"
Any real animal have nothing in common with Subnautica-style beasts of murder.
The desire to have payback from this critters is very understandable.
Devs should either reduce aggressiveness of creatures to something reasonable (like 10 times less aggressive) or make real weapons available, instead of toy BB-guns, that are locked behind some bloodthirsty monstrosities anyway.
But I do agree that the creature aggression still needs tweaking. That part of the game just isn't done yet. My pet peeve is that critter attacks on vehicles don't cease when they are parked and it will be a happy update when sandsharks remain in the sand more.
Also it is likely that bear will ignore you if you are inside the vehicle.
And at last it is easy to scare away the bear by smoke or by campfire, unless of course this bear had awakened during the winter (don't mess with them, seriously).
Wild animals doesn't behave like monsters from video games, while creatures in Subnautica behave exactly like typical fantasy rpg monster.
PS. Bears are my neighbors
They could always call the "they're infected" card on you, but that would be the easy cop out
And if that was the case than why are Gary, Peeper and their little fish buddies not aggressive? Or why doesn't our hippy protagonist eventually go insane (amnesia style?), while becoming aggressive to satisfy his... Sanity meter? With that said, this hypothesis is all wet
But really, this is not a shooter game and the dev have already laid down their foot on the subject. I still want my knife on a stick. >.>
I pseudo-agree with you here, though I think that subnautica stresses repelling creatures though alternative means, similar to @smellslikebleach's point.
I would suggest checking this thread to read more on this debate. The same question has been raised and discussed very similarly. Another thread on the same topic is here.
I did a total bone shark and resource clearance in the floating islands once with the stasis rifle and the knife. It was enough. I have no idea if you can get the reapers that way. I've never used the torpedoes or repulsion cannon to 'fight' with, I just tend to avoid things wherever possible! I don't think I'd like to see big weapons, but then I've never really fought the big ones...
I can actually agree with this one. The whole reason I mention a combat system is because of the agressive nature, and as I said it turns from "O shit there's a leviathan" to "dammit another F***ing leviathan." in the most annoyed manner possible. If it was more of a dance of behavior where you have to understand the creatures and not just have them constantly attacking you, I'd understand. But as it stands if you're so much as in roar distance of a reaper it literally says "they can hear you", implying if you hear it, it will attack you. having something that predatory in nature early and mid game is fine, but, again the big complaint is when you're in late game and still need to piss yourself scared because these assholes are still nigh invincible with the insta-kill bs should you wonder outside your cyclops.
Ok after the 100th time dying to a reaper leviathan, it honestly would feel damn good getting some payback on a fake creature. This game is far from being designed with not violence in mind. The creatures are far too aggressive, and the actual power of the apex predators without any equal ground for avoiding them late game is very unsatisfying. You have a stasis rifle that can only handle 1 apex predator (IE reaper, dragon, ext) at a time, and a cyclops that the giant bastards can push below crush depth so you still have to be careful against them. There is no progression above them and it creates this feeling of an unbeatable wall that only becomes more apparent the less there is to progress towards the end of the game. I've stopped even trying to sit on subnautica save files because there is literally no point since you're nearly just as vulnerable as when you start. It becomes this realization that no matter how much you try, no matter how much you push, these things will always kill you and always force you to sit in some sort of bubble (aka a cyclops, especially if there is more than 1 because the stasis can only deal with 1 at a time if they are too far apart) and it begs the question of why continue. I get that there will be an end to the game eventually and that is fine and all, but unless they intend to make the mistake of fallout 3 and just cut the game there which will definitely piss people off, what is the point of continuing to progress if there are these things that you can literally never get over, just hope that you get lucky each time you go into the crash zone or inactive lava zone or wherever you'll find them to be able to survive that encounter. Again it is fine to have that vulnerability, but eventually you run out of progress, and all that is left is the incomplete goals, and choosing not to finish something and not being able to finish something produce 2 very different feelings about a game.
As far as the sea emperor thing. There is a lot of talk about the babies being the source of the cure since the big gal isn't too capable of producing enough enzyme. It's a mother and have you tried touching a mother animal's babies? yeah, chances are it's going to be a boss by survival. Her or you. Either you kill her and get to the babies for a cure (I hope in a way to let them live because I agree the emperor is just a giant cutie), or you die to the disease.
Simply put, this is not dark souls type of beating. Dark souls has a "git gude" mentality. Yeah some situations can be unfair, but there are strategic solutions that are, and this is the big thing here, consistent. You can go through any souls game and get patterns down to do your different things. This doesn't have that ability. Once you see 2 reapers, that's it. Done, you lose. Unless you're sitting in a cyclops (which btw they can push under crush depth if you're too close) there is no way of handling the 2 of them if they move too far for the stasis rifle to hit them both, and they are way too aggressive to actually avoid. Sea dragons are supposed to be even worse so don't even get me started on that. The big difference is that there is no consistent solution to these issues as you constantly deal with the unfair parts of dark souls-esq abuse, but none of the even playing field with strategy. Subnautica is literally so prideful about the fact that leviathans are so vicious that it says "if you can hear it, it can hear you", and as I said before it implies it attacks if you can hear its roar, which is beyond unfair.
Yes there are options if the devs choose to go for the more strategic route, but that is only IF they are willing to basically overhaul the behaviors of certain monsters, and I admit I would love to have a non violent play style, but I'm going for what would be practical and easier for the devs. If they're willing to fine tune behavior of these creatures to create some unique fish whisperer fun, that's great. As far as I see, there has been no attempt at that, and with the sea dragon and the implications of the current story with the sea emperor, I see them going in the opposite direction
I was waiting for sunbeam and there was one of the little crabs making noise, so i took my propulsion canon, picked up my seamoth and wreckeing balled him. No I don't need a spear gun.
Whatever your argument on weapons, leave the sea emperor alone. She isn't hostile and neither are the babies and you don't need to kill to get to the cure much like you don't have to kill the goose to get to the golden eggs. It's not a boss battle. (You might want to ask yourself why you are so convinced a boss battle and death are the only possible end scenario.)
I don't get how you managed to die so many times to a reaper. They've got steady spots easy to learn and I think I've only been caught by three of them ever: the one above the Mushroom Forest at the Aurora (10+ times, although most of it due to not realizing they were clipping through the terrain and thus able to see me when I couldn't them. Also made the MF unsafe because the reaper wasn't stopped when it came from underground), the Mountain Island one (once), and the one behind the engines (thrice). It's possible and, frankly, easy to avoid them. I get more trouble from bleeders and warpers that are a lot harder to predict.
I'm somewhat tired of this on/off mindset so often flung at fresh games. The fact that you can be attacked by animals and die from it does not in any way or shape contradict a no-violence gameplay foundation because it should not be so that you ever want to answer with violence in the first place ("feel damn good" betrays your fakeness argument, because your feelings are real). If you want to answer with violence, that's your problem; kindly don't make it mine or UWE's. Constant vulnerability is nothing new in games either - didn't Silent Hill and Resident Evil go to the gutter right because they lost their sense of vulnerability?
I do not get what you mean with "what is the point of continuing to progress if there are these things that you can literally never get over". You barely ever have to be near a reaper in the first place (something I'd like to see changed, but that's an aside) and they aren't in the lower sections which is where you have to progress to (and sea dragons are few and mostly disinterested). The point is to escape 4546B and find a cure, not to become top of the food chain. Goals and progress are just fine without weapons. And if that particular part of the game is what makes you unable to finish it, the advice of Ye Olden Days of gaming goes into effect: get better.
EDIT because I'm at times sounding like a tough-it-out gatekeeper: if the game as is sets the bar too high for you, that's understandable. Folks often request more tools to survive (shield, decoys, current gun, etc.) or new modes and options to better suit their skills and tastes. That's cool. Request stuff like that to make the game more manageable and you have my support.
Stasis rifle
Bring 2 batteries. Hold right click like your life depends on it (it kinda does). Hit them as they go to attack, right in the face. Swim to their tail to give ample distance between you and their mouth. Scan for 15 seconds (Stasis should only be halfway done), re-stasis them. Finish scan, stasis again, sail away as fast as possible
In general, I think that the early game should remain completely weapons-free. You supposedly come from a nonviolent society (or one that pretends to be, anyway) thus why you only have a utility knife for survival situations.
Besides, few things can compare to the pants-wetting terror of hearing a noise behind you while swimming along the surface to the Aurora for the first time, and looking down just in time to dodge a Reaper coming up at you by inches, and seeing that monster arc up and out of the water over your head. Chasing it around with a speargun and exploiting AI predictability to kill it (you know this is how it would go) would just ruin things.
I think I will put in a suggestion for that honestly. I've been tossing up some ideas for a mechanic (albeit VERY hard to code properly) for creature behavior thanks to the comments here. As it stands, the game is completely subjective in its difficulty, necessity for weapons, ext. What is objective is that this game isn't finished and suggestions can help. I do hope that there is something of a "weapon" in the game, at least non-lethal that could get you out of a grab animation (mainly when you're in your Seamoth/Prawn). I do understand where you come from in the game not needing weapons and being a fresh faced idea, but depending on how they handle it, this is still early access and I hope that it does keep that demeanor so long as the devs are willing to put the time and effort in.
I did see one Overwatch video, where people were spamming Symmetra shields down a hallway, big panels of glowy push, flying around. That could make a neat turret.
Close range, a repulsion turret. Long range, a turret spamming energy balls that expand into a large panel, pushing away hostiles.
Doesn't have to be lethal stuff, but the shark-sized fishies get annoying after a while. And a Cyclops upgrade to automatically remove leeches (gated after a trip through the lava zones) would be nice too.
Now I agree creatures should be much less aggressive
Make Carar creatures the aggressive, come-after-you type that they are now.
Now maybe being able to capture mobs and relocate them to somewhere that they're not being so obnoxious...that might be a thing.
Yeah - that's what I thought. Maybe this gives you the chance that the player isn't attractive bigger anymore for several predators for a amount of time but maybe get the attention of other species.
Heck, even the ingame PDA already states that weapons were taken out of consumer fabricators due to some sort of incident on a planet.
If you could make it so you could fight things like the reaper and the sea dragon, it takes away from their fear factor.
Besides, you're marooned on an alien planet, infected by a genetic mutation bacteria that's slowly killing you, and surrounded by fish that want to eat you. It's already easy enough to avoid everything with the Stasis Rifle and a knife, a gun or spear is just gunna take away from the experience.
This is a good point.
I consider myself an "almost" advanced/civilized being
If I will lost myself on an unknown planet full of hostile creatures I will probabily try to find a way to protect myself.
I'm not talking about running around with a blaster in search of fresh blood.
I just think we need something better than a simple knife. Just a telescopic stick with a knife on the tip (or a
little taser, ecc) can make the difference.
You could net off sections to enclose off an area to build your base in or even use it as a breeding area. You could also use a net gun and catch the larger creatures and attach the net to the cyclops to relocate the bigger creatures. and also use the net gun to catch creatures for food and so on.
The enclosure could be built to hold the creatures in for breeding and study purposes and a feeding hatch could be built onto it it so that you can enter and exit like the in base tank. The creeper vines that grow could be used to build or craft the nets, and also the airbags to hold them up to the surface.
Subnautica is not a shooter and we wont be adding any aggressive weapons designed to kill in the game.