Balance "fix" discussion

2

Comments

  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    edited October 2016
    Nordic wrote: »
    I know most people here don't like the healthbars or enlarged hitboxes. I am not happy with them either. I do understand why UWE did those changes though. I think it is clear they are not going to go away. Those changes have left us with some balance problems, specifically the onos explosion.

    That's the thing though... It's not about having the hp bars or not anymore.. it's about HOW THEY FOLLOW THE TARGET IN REAL TIME... If they could just make them static like the damage numbers they replaced used to be, the hp bars wouldn't have nearly as much impact against Lerk play as they do!!

    Am I really the only one that remembers the damage numbers? They only showed up where you landed the hit and did not move with the lifeform

  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Nordic wrote: »

    I main lerk and don't play fade. It is hard for me to speak about fade but I can speak about lerk. Skulks had an hp increase after the enlarged hitboxes and I think lerks need the same treatment. Any increase in health will always help the more skilled players more, but I think an HP buff is the best way to improve lerk survivability, viability, and accessibility.


    No no no no no no no. This is absolutely the wrong way. Reverting lerk hitboxes is the right way. Come on, who wants lerks to be flying tanks?
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    XoPhyte wrote: »
    Nordic, good points. Is the exo supposed to be more about killing structures? That's also the job of arcs should aliens be dug in. It just seems that exo's do not really have ANY role anymore. Jetpacks / shotguns / GL's are better for taking out structures AND lifeforms. An exo "pushing" a hive is typically killed so ridiculously quickly its not worth it, and there is still no real counter to 3+ onos's.

    I liked the old slow exo tank. It could not re-position quickly, so was not going to go out and solo stuff, but could help teams advance forward.

    The current Exo has been relegated to guarding bases or guarding arc's.

    I 100% agree with you on the other lifeforms. I used to be mainly a lerk, now I never play it, its simply not worth it, to easy to hit, no real role and overly frustrating to play.

    Like you, I cannot really speak to fade, but I do see less of them.

    With mid level lifeforms being considered "not worth it" by most, that is allowing the 3/4/5 onos swarm all hitting at the same time, whereas before you used to see lerks / fades and then later maybe 1-2 onos at most.

    I think you are dead on that making mid level lifeforms more attractive are a critical part of helping balance this onos issue.

    I don't understand why you think exo is useless. Its damage output is HUGE. It does so much damage at its own, of course it should be slow and killed easily. Just protect it. Exos do not need a buff.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited October 2016
    Nordic wrote: »

    I main lerk and don't play fade. It is hard for me to speak about fade but I can speak about lerk. Skulks had an hp increase after the enlarged hitboxes and I think lerks need the same treatment. Any increase in health will always help the more skilled players more, but I think an HP buff is the best way to improve lerk survivability, viability, and accessibility.


    No no no no no no no. This is absolutely the wrong way. Reverting lerk hitboxes is the right way. Come on, who wants lerks to be flying tanks?

    He's talking about like the difference of 2 or 3 bullets. Maybe even just 1. Not a huge buff at all.

    I do agree however that reverting lerk hitboxes specifically would be best move. But in lieu of that, i think a tiny tiny hp buff would be fair enough to at least lessen the blow of the PERCEPTION of being shot around corners, which is at an all time high for me as a lerk since the hitbox change.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2016
    No no no no no no no. This is absolutely the wrong way. Reverting lerk hitboxes is the right way. Come on, who wants lerks to be flying tanks?
    It is not about what it should be but working with the circumstances we have. Enlarged hitboxes are the circumstances. Now what do we do to male the lifeforms accessible, survivable, and viable again if we can not revert the hitboxes? As I described, given those circumstances I think an HP buff is best way. I would just give the lerk more HP in order to cope with the enlarge hitboxes. This has already been done to the skulk.
    It is not like they would be flying tanks since the hitbox is so huge now.
  • XoPhyteXoPhyte Join Date: 2013-05-31 Member: 185431Members
    XoPhyte wrote: »
    Nordic, good points. Is the exo supposed to be more about killing structures? That's also the job of arcs should aliens be dug in. It just seems that exo's do not really have ANY role anymore. Jetpacks / shotguns / GL's are better for taking out structures AND lifeforms. An exo "pushing" a hive is typically killed so ridiculously quickly its not worth it, and there is still no real counter to 3+ onos's.

    I liked the old slow exo tank. It could not re-position quickly, so was not going to go out and solo stuff, but could help teams advance forward.

    The current Exo has been relegated to guarding bases or guarding arc's.

    I 100% agree with you on the other lifeforms. I used to be mainly a lerk, now I never play it, its simply not worth it, to easy to hit, no real role and overly frustrating to play.

    Like you, I cannot really speak to fade, but I do see less of them.

    With mid level lifeforms being considered "not worth it" by most, that is allowing the 3/4/5 onos swarm all hitting at the same time, whereas before you used to see lerks / fades and then later maybe 1-2 onos at most.

    I think you are dead on that making mid level lifeforms more attractive are a critical part of helping balance this onos issue.

    I don't understand why you think exo is useless. Its damage output is HUGE. It does so much damage at its own, of course it should be slow and killed easily. Just protect it. Exos do not need a buff.

    I don't think you actually read what I wrote at all prior to this latest section. Nordic was replying to my earlier conversation, so there is a chain here. You are taking my last statements and misunderstanding them.

    Its the damage / tank of an onos vs the damage / tank of an exo that is vastly disproportional.

  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Nordic wrote: »
    No no no no no no no. This is absolutely the wrong way. Reverting lerk hitboxes is the right way. Come on, who wants lerks to be flying tanks?
    It is not about what it should be but working with the circumstances we have. Enlarged hitboxes are the circumstances. Now what do we do to male the lifeforms accessible, survivable, and viable again if we can not revert the hitboxes? As I described, given those circumstances I think an HP buff is best way. I would just give the lerk more HP in order to cope with the enlarge hitboxes. This has already been done to the skulk.
    It is not like they would be flying tanks since the hitbox is so huge now.

    It is a bad idea to stick with circumstances when they are bad. If you really want to change something, increase shotgun spread or make lerk slightly faster.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    XoPhyte wrote: »
    XoPhyte wrote: »
    Nordic, good points. Is the exo supposed to be more about killing structures? That's also the job of arcs should aliens be dug in. It just seems that exo's do not really have ANY role anymore. Jetpacks / shotguns / GL's are better for taking out structures AND lifeforms. An exo "pushing" a hive is typically killed so ridiculously quickly its not worth it, and there is still no real counter to 3+ onos's.

    I liked the old slow exo tank. It could not re-position quickly, so was not going to go out and solo stuff, but could help teams advance forward.

    The current Exo has been relegated to guarding bases or guarding arc's.

    I 100% agree with you on the other lifeforms. I used to be mainly a lerk, now I never play it, its simply not worth it, to easy to hit, no real role and overly frustrating to play.

    Like you, I cannot really speak to fade, but I do see less of them.

    With mid level lifeforms being considered "not worth it" by most, that is allowing the 3/4/5 onos swarm all hitting at the same time, whereas before you used to see lerks / fades and then later maybe 1-2 onos at most.

    I think you are dead on that making mid level lifeforms more attractive are a critical part of helping balance this onos issue.

    I don't understand why you think exo is useless. Its damage output is HUGE. It does so much damage at its own, of course it should be slow and killed easily. Just protect it. Exos do not need a buff.

    I don't think you actually read what I wrote at all prior to this latest section. Nordic was replying to my earlier conversation, so there is a chain here. You are taking my last statements and misunderstanding them.

    Its the damage / tank of an onos vs the damage / tank of an exo that is vastly disproportional.

    I do not agree that there is a problem. Onos needs much hp, exo doesn't. If an exo tries to 1v1 an onos, he should die. Most of the time. If the onos just runs a long hallway into the exo, well then the onos dies 100% of time. Exos are strong enough as they are, onoses are fine too. The only problems of onoses are: Too high pres gain rate and boneshield.
  • NominousNominous Baltimore, MD Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146518Members
    edited October 2016
    I'm been fading again instead of saving for onos these past few patches. My play style used to be very aggressive and a bit reckless. I would engage without caring about whether marines can hear me coming, go walker fade if I felt I could live through rifle damage, and keep fighting when I'm one swipe/blink away from no energy.

    I've been focusing on surviving lately by doing hit-and-runs and juking more often. I've been favoring the good old "blink up and swoop down" tactic in large rooms. Blinking upwards in combat is still a very good juking technique. Most marines have trouble aiming at targets that can suddenly move vertically as fast as the fade or lerk can. Another technique that I've tried doing again is tapping blink and circling a marine while jumping and swiping. It throws off most marine's aim, but it can be tricky to do in cramped hallways, on inclines, with surrounding geometry, etc.

    Fighting shotgunners can still be hit or miss due to the enlarged hitbox. Closing the distance with some subtle turning after blinking usually throws off the average marine's aim enough to avoid the first meatshot. I think the most common mistake made by fades is moving in a straight line toward an aware shotgunner, who will be more than happy to run straight at you as well for a nearly guaranteed meatshot. I try not to go walker fade and land consecutive swipes on a shotgunner unless I'm fairly sure that he's alone and I mostly avoided his first shot.

    I've also been favoring veils (aura) second instead of shells (carapace). Aura lets me pick off weak marines from groups and easily use surrounding geometry to block LoS if I need a breather to metabolize. Sure, you could say it's just an easy way to nab kills, but in a team fight where we're ultimately trying to take down a PG, every kill matters.

    The reason why you don't see fades and lerks that often is due to their high skill curve. This has always been the case before the hitbox enlargements. The average player does not know the fundamentals like blink jumping instead of holding down blink and wasting energy, using meta in combat whenever they're not swiping, using a medium-to-high sensitivity and doing sudden turns while blinking in order to juke, etc. Even if they know the basics like blink jumping, they might not be good at it. This lack of fundamentals is the most likely cause of losing a lerk or a fade without doing much to help one's team. Smart, fledgling lerks and fades will do their research by watching POVs of good players, reading/watching lifeform guides, and doing the grind without letting deaths or supposed ineffectiveness demotivate them.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members
    edited October 2016
    Biggest problem with playing the game is there is no easy way to see how to be a good lerk and fade. And they made it harder with the hitbox changes. So you made the most difficult thing in the game more difficult = not good. Then we have the boneshield and onos pres (just the pres in general) thing that is terrible and ruins good games. Other than that, the game is playing decent. The silence thing really doesn't come into play that much in a pub as most players don't know how to dominate and most good shooters can still kill a silent skulk.

    Edit: basically I agree with everything nominous says but somehow it never seems to change.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    barnie wrote: »
    XoPhyte wrote: »
    With mid level lifeforms being considered "not worth it" by most, that is allowing the 3/4/5 onos swarm all hitting at the same time, whereas before you used to see lerks / fades and then later maybe 1-2 onos at most.

    Personally i always considered evolving lerk/fade/onos a waste since I started playing NS2 3 years ago.
    Against the average pub player I have enough killing power in the skulk.
    It requires a lot of skill, but if all you ever play is skulk you tend to get good at it.
    You don't have to retreat to heal, so more kills per minute then any other lifeform.
    I usually end up with a KDR of 1.x but always the top 3 fraggers in the team.
    Little Skulky does everything: killing rines, exos, extractors, JPs and breaks turtles with xeno.
    By the time the com has researched boneshield they are all dead.

    I have to second this. In pub, skulk is the most effective life form to me, hands down. It can do everything. And if you do everything with it, you become really good with it. I think I became a pretty good skulk player over time, and now even evolving Onos can feel like a waste - it doesn't allow me to go behind enemy lines and deal damage, instead pushing me towards taking big engagements half my pub teammates are taking, anyway. Lerk and Fades are good at keeping marines out of your territory in a pinch, but so do two or three coordinating skulks. The cost is having to keep an expensive lifeform alive, not being able to resbite (...as well; lerks can do it but it's somewhat too risky for the lerk's price), and not being able to go Onos later.

    I'm not suggesting skulk nerfs, though. That's the worst you could do. The most basic lifeform should be able to do everything, but right now it's almost the best at doing everything. I think we should instead redefine the roles of other lifeforms.

    By the way, I have been trying to get into lerking and fading recently. But not out of any need; more out of boredom. Three out of four times it's not worth it.
    Nordic wrote: »

    I main lerk and don't play fade. It is hard for me to speak about fade but I can speak about lerk. Skulks had an hp increase after the enlarged hitboxes and I think lerks need the same treatment. Any increase in health will always help the more skilled players more, but I think an HP buff is the best way to improve lerk survivability, viability, and accessibility.


    No no no no no no no. This is absolutely the wrong way. Reverting lerk hitboxes is the right way. Come on, who wants lerks to be flying tanks?

    I feel like increasing lerk HP would be more of a buff against rifles than shotguns. Seeing as how good lerks are already pretty hard to kill with rifles, I think this isn't the way to go. There's been some talk about increasing shotgun spread - I think Ghoul wants to try it in his mod? - which should address the whole hitbox issue better. At least as far as fades and lerks are concerned.

    Deck_ wrote: »
    The silence thing really doesn't come into play that much in a pub as most players don't know how to dominate and most good shooters can still kill a silent skulk.

    I disagree. Ever since silence has been on shift my skulk turned into The Alien. I've been able to do some crazy stunts deep in marine territory with it. The average pub player isn't as good at it, but they're starting to pick up on it. And lately I have been finding it really annoying to die or at least take a lot of damage because some skulk got a free hit on me with silence, when normally I would have been able to sense them coming a mile away. Yes, I could obsessively check my back every few seconds, but I feel like that paranoia would make me a worse player overall.
    Basically silence is extremely fun for aliens and the opposite for marines.
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
    edited October 2016
  • barniebarnie Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Members
    edited October 2016
    XoPhyte wrote: »
    Umm, I dunno what servers you are playing on, but.... ok. On every other server the onos are NOT dropping like flies, and every game can be completely dominated by marines, but if you have not won the game or reduce the aliens down to a single RT by the 8-10 minute mark, 3-4 onos come out, dominate and easily win the game.

    Feel free to read virtually every other post saying the same thing...
    I have read those and since they are opposite to my experience so I made that post.
    Playing mostly on EU servers of 24-18 slot size, about 5hrs a week so my sample size might be smaller then yours.
    Whenever an Onos is up against more then 2 marines it dies. (3 LMG clips = dead Onos)
    Not talking biomass 6, full carapace + boneshield Onos here, since that takes longer then 9 minutes to get, unless aliens are already wrecking hard without them.


    But Its seems we all tend to agree that the mid tier lifeforms are currently underused.
    To me an Increase in Onos price would seem like the most obvious solution.
    But Also nerfing it in the process might be going too far.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2016
    I don't think it is so much that mid-tier lifeforms don't have a role. I think it is that they have been made more difficult because of b279 hitreg improvements, health bars, and enlarged hitboxes. The additional difficulty has hurt accessibility, survivability, and viability of lerks and possibly fades. The minimum skill a player must have to make use of mid-tier lifeforms has increased. As multiple people have said, this is not a new problem. Mid-tier lifeforms have always been hard. They are even harder now.

    No matter how much The_Welsh_Wizard doesn't like it enlarged hitboxes are not going away. So what can we change to improve accessibility, survivability, and viability of lerks and possibly fades?
    • Increase lifeform health
    • Increase lifeform speed
    • Include more movement tools
    • Weaken marines
    • There might be more I am not thinking of at the moment.

    Any of those buffs is going to help more skilled lifeforms more than less skilled lifeforms. That much is unavoidable.
    Weakening marines is risky because it effects more than just mid-tier lifeforms. Ghouls balance mod is trying out an increased shotgun spread which returns the distance to hit a lifeform to what it was before the enlarged hitboxes. I think this is a good change but I don't think it is enough. Time will tell.

    Increasing movement tools is an interesting idea. Ghouls balance mod is trying out some new tools for lerk. It has increased the lerks air control without celerity. Strafing and the crouch drop is more reactive. I think these are also good changes but I do not think they are enough. Time will tell.

    Increasing lifeform speed is a possibility. Fades are already the fastest lifeform. More speed makes interp problems, dying around corners etc, more noticeable. The real strength of speed is helping lifeforms close the distance sooner. More speed does help you leave faster, but I think the real benefit lies at the beginning of the engagement. I don't think this is where mid-tier lifeforms struggle though.

    Increasing health is a possibility. Skulk HP was increased with the enlarged hitboxes. The real strength of health is helping lifeforms survive while leaving an engagement. Sure, more health does help at the beginning by absorbing bullets as you close the distance except unlike skulks mid-tier lifeforms are not free. They have to escape. At least the HP increase I want for lerks is not much. The lerk would still be fragile. An HP buff would really shine in helping lifeforms escape an engagement. This is where I think lifeforms struggle the most.

    Given the circumstances we have such as enlarged hitboxes which are not going to change, I think the best method listed above is to increase lifeform health similar to how skulk health increased. I think this is the best way to improve accessibility, survivability, and viability of lerks and possibly fades
  • JolniJolni Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58231Members
    agreed, especially lerks are really hard to play when shotguns come up and would really benefit from some hp increase. :smile:
  • NominousNominous Baltimore, MD Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146518Members
    edited October 2016
    In pub, skulk is the most effective life form to me, hands down. It can do everything. And if you do everything with it, you become really good with it. I think I became a pretty good skulk player over time, and now even evolving Onos can feel like a waste - it doesn't allow me to go behind enemy lines and deal damage, instead pushing me towards taking big engagements half my pub teammates are taking, anyway. Lerk and Fades are good at keeping marines out of your territory in a pinch, but so do two or three coordinating skulks. The cost is having to keep an expensive lifeform alive, not being able to resbite (...as well; lerks can do it but it's somewhat too risky for the lerk's price), and not being able to go Onos later.

    I'm not suggesting skulk nerfs, though. That's the worst you could do. The most basic lifeform should be able to do everything, but right now it's almost the best at doing everything. I think we should instead redefine the roles of other lifeforms.

    By the way, I have been trying to get into lerking and fading recently. But not out of any need; more out of boredom. Three out of four times it's not worth it.
    I don't deny the effectiveness of skulks at killing both marines and structures, but their combat effectiveness in pubs can start to dwindle towards mid game versus increasingly upgraded groups of marines. During mid game, a fade can be the better killer due to blink and a much higher health pool, resulting in higher staying power. As a skulk, you might get a bite in on a shotgunner, you get one-shot, and you wait for respawn. As a fade, you might get a swipe in, get meatshot, retreat, finish off a weak marine on your way to heal, spend some time healing, and be right back in the fray. Fades are also great at quickly scouting, preventing marines from defending RTs, being distractions for skulks in team fights, meatgrinding phase gates (killing and staying power over structural damage), and finishing off structures that have no armor. Smart players take all of these strengths into account and constantly look for opportunities to make use of them instead of just swiping a bunch of times, running back to heal, and repeating ad nauseam.

    Here's a replay featuring some messy gameplay, but I think I lived long enough as a fade, killed enough marines, and made enough plays to affect the game's outcome. I'm just trying to show that fades can be effective in pubs if you spend the time to learn them. There are plenty of pub fades and lerks who demonstrate effectiveness as well, besides comp players who are above and beyond average players and pub stars alike.
    Nordic wrote: »
    Ghouls balance mod is trying out an increased shotgun spread which returns the distance to hit a lifeform to what it was before the enlarged hitboxes. I think this is a good change but I don't think it is enough. Time will tell.
    That's the first possible solution that came to my mind back when the hitboxes were increased. It sounds like the ideal solution for now since it leaves rifle/MG users unaffected.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Nominous wrote: »
    I'm just trying to show that fades can be effective in pubs if you spend the time to learn them.
    They have always been extremely hard to learn. It took me hundreds of hours to learn how to fade before b250. After B250 it took me hundreds of hours to learn how to lerk. I know there are people out there who learned a lot faster than that too.

    My point is that they have always been hard and they are now a heck of a lot harder to learn.
  • XoPhyteXoPhyte Join Date: 2013-05-31 Member: 185431Members
    edited October 2016
    F0rdPrefect nailed perfectly my exact experience with Skulk as well.

    I understand your points as well Nom. Nobody ever bitches about the "god fade" because everyone well understands that it takes a tremendous amount of skill & practice to get that good. I believe F0rds point is.. with hundreds of hours I COULD learn fade, and then only deal slightly more kills then I am getting today with Skulk. (I am well aware that I am only now good with skulk after hundreds of hours of practice).

    I think for most the learning curve vs. reward isn't there for Fade, as its going to take a lot of "suck" time to get good.

    I used to love lerk, and the cost vs reward was worth it. Now lerk is an exercise extreme frustration as you are hit more easily, have to retreat more easily, spores are useless, so you are not really contributing much to the team.

    Because I am hit easier, I cannot engage and kill 1x1 or 1x2 effectively and spend more time running back to heal (very frustrating). Because spores are useless, it is no longer a good option at stopping / slowing down a marine rush. It was never good at taking down structures (risky). It's only real use anymore was to umbra onos, but that's not really needed anymore with the onos swarm, and really, who wants to spend res to simply help protect another lifeform?

    Put differently

    1) Skulk : I can move quickly, engage quickly, kill quikly, die quickly, respawn and not care. I am constant pressure
    2) Gorge : well, it's a gorge. Important, but boring for me.
    3) Lerk : "lol"
    4) Fade : too much effort / time to get good at. Kudos to those amazing fades that do.
    5) Onos : Wreck your sh*t!

    Another way to put it, if I find myself with someone like TeaBaggins on aliens, early game it will be close in K/D between us as skulk. He goes fade, creeps a little bit above me, I'm still useful hitting structures. A bit later, I go onos, easily out kill him, and kill structures.

    So while I get your points, when I look at the math from this perspective, I still feel that skulk -> Onos is more of a contribution to the team. Of course there are scenarios like you mention, but as a general rule I think most players feel this way.

    I believe they need to either slightly buff the lerk hp or (preferably) reduce the hitbox a bit (this would still benefit the better aiming players as it should).
  • migalskimigalski Boston Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Nordic wrote: »
    I don't think it is so much that mid-tier lifeforms don't have a role. I think it is that they have been made more difficult because of b279 hitreg improvements, health bars, and enlarged hitboxes. The additional difficulty has hurt accessibility, survivability, and viability of lerks and possibly fades. The minimum skill a player must have to make use of mid-tier lifeforms has increased. As multiple people have said, this is not a new problem. Mid-tier lifeforms have always been hard. They are even harder now.
    .
    .
    .
    Given the circumstances we have such as enlarged hit boxes which are not going to change, I think the best method listed above is to increase lifeform health similar to how skulk health increased. I think this is the best way to improve accessibility, survivability, and viability of lerks and possibly fades

    That's the thing, you can't simply weaken marines overall without having it having huge affects early and especially late game where marines already struggled significantly. Onos in general are already a pain to kill even if you have 5+ marines shooting an onos swarm. That's really not an option as to re balancing the game.

    Increasing lifeform health is simply just a band aid to a poor balance choice, plus it will only make dominant players even more dominant. Ontop of that you'd need to increase weapon damage to counter increased health on weaker weapons (hmg, fl, gl, rifle). Really not the best way to go about it.

    Truthfully the increase hp to skulk really doesn't do anything for the most part, the minuscule health increase at most is 1 or 2 bullets and really has little effect for good marines already, at most it hurts lower skilled players who struggle to aim as it is. However increasing lifeform health would have to be significantly to make them viable to learn and play again.

    Increases speed would destroy the allusion of ns2 having good reg and the terrible interp reveal itself again, but would be a way to counter decreased hp. This in my opinion would be the best option that doesn't completely destroy game balance.

    Pls stop re balancing the game to fix your poor balance choices. Go forward and you only have to re balance more mechanics while revert and you just need to fix interp and reg.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    migalski wrote: »
    Increasing lifeform health is simply just a band aid to a poor balance choice, plus it will only make dominant players even more dominant. On top of that you'd need to increase weapon damage to counter increased health on weaker weapons (hmg, fl, gl, rifle). Really not the best way to go about it.

    The kind of health increase on lerk I want is only an increase of 1 or 2 bullets and no more. It would either be an increase in 5% or 12% eHP. I don't think weapon damage would need to change whatsoever.
    You say it is a bandaid fix, but it certainly looks like hitboxes are not going to be reverted. If they are not reverted, what do we do to fix the problem?
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    What about shrinking the player models so the "new" enlarged hitboxes are the exact same size as the "old" hitboxes...

    Seems like a no brainer..
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    What about shrinking the player models so the "new" enlarged hitboxes are the exact same size as the "old" hitboxes...

    Seems like a no brainer..

    I hope this was sarcasm because UWE should have learned by now that band-aids are not proper solutions.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    What about shrinking the player models so the "new" enlarged hitboxes are the exact same size as the "old" hitboxes...

    Seems like a no brainer..

    I've asked this question before, and the answer was that it opens up a whole can of worms/problems.
    The collision would have to change, every single inch in every map would have to be checked for new stuck spots, exploitable spots, and if you kept the collision the same then you'd have skulks floating off of walls and objects constantly, looking horribly.


    @migalski Did increasing the skulk HP slightly make good skulks more dominant? I personally don't think so, I think it just accounted for the increase in average accuracy from marines.
  • migalskimigalski Boston Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @migalski Did increasing the skulk HP slightly make good skulks more dominant? I personally don't think so, I think it just accounted for the increase in average accuracy from marines.

    Correct me if i'm wrong but the base health was only increased to 97? hp which is still 10 bullets, 92 bullets is also 10 bullets. This only would have a larger affect with more upgrades on marines. I don't believe the skulk hp buff did anything at all other than make skulks maybe win 2/3 more engagements a game..
  • RustyRusty Canada Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185850Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver
    There's been a lot of really good posts in here, and I have to agree with Mofo on the fact that multiple changes at once won't do us good. Someone above mentioned HP bars, and well - we've adapted. I don't look at player HP half the time, and could care less - as I tend to shoot first and not care if that lerk flying past has 10HP or 100HP. What I would have preferred instead of the healthbar is something like Aura.

    My main concern as an NS2 player is that the Devs make it easy for new players to understand the mechanics and learn the game in a non toxic environment. They are the ones that will help to promote the game to their friends and re-populate our servers. The Devs have done a great job with the tutorials, and it's great hearing green rookies say to me " I know what to do - I did the tutorial ". Sure we can laugh - but at LEAST that player has a mindset of "I can do this" .

    I always thought that "veterans" could have a special badge - such as "Trainer" - in which the devs could announce that anyone with the trainer badge is available on steam for one on one sessions. This could be a great opportunity to increase rookie longevity and maybe even help to turn them into decent players.

    --

    Smurfs are one of my biggest pet peeves. I wish that there was a system implemented to track smurfs. Smurfs get onto rookie servers and stomp. If you were someone who's played xGamex for YEARS and then installs NS2 because a friend told you to. If you were destroyed 5 minutes in - would you try to entice your friend to not play NS2 and join you back at your old fav game? Remember this next time you want to stomp rookies. They are life for NS2.

    So in regards to the post - back on track - balance changes are never nice no matter how we look at it because it means adjustment. The more changes, the more adjustment, the harder it is to balance. The developers did do something good, increasing the Onos Pres to 62 - to match the original Pres timing has been a nice change thus far. I do echo what @migalski said in regards to Silence - he's a competitive player and understands it's usefulness. Silence is great.

    That being said. I hear a LOT of people commenting about how UWE is changing things like animations instead of working on things like hit reg, or performance. We have to remember that not all of UWE developers are programmers, and we need to respect that there is still work being done to improve the aesthetics of the game. The Dev's know far too well - the issues with the game, and it's important for us to give positive feedback. One thing the Developers could do to help get more feedback - is on that five star thingy in game that comes up at the end of the match. Maybe have a Comments Section as well - something to easily allow ROOKIES to voice their feedback.


    So I have two requests.


    Please, Please, Please Stop pushing builds out on a Friday. Friday, Sat, Sunday are PEAK times! Pushing it out earlier in the week is better as if there's a problem - we don't want it interfering during peak times. Some of the other server ops cannot update as often as others, so having patches

    Also, please bring back the teambalance. The nice mechanics that kept players dead if teams were offset by two players or more. This ensured the same amount of alive players on the battlefield - and with the balance issues - the least we can do is try to ensure the same amount of bodies are alive at the same time.

    IronHorse wrote: »
    The problem is that we keep shifting silence around trying to make it less impactful, and it just happens to cover up for the weak early alien game when its on the shift, but in truth that mechanic is just too strong to be in the game and should be replaced by something effective but not unfair - after the early game issues are addressed.

    I strongly feel that removing / replacing this would be disastrous.

    Thanks guys.
    `Rusty
  • Xplosive_TurtleXplosive_Turtle ya mom Join Date: 2016-10-12 Member: 223075Members
    Hi;

    It's not intended to answer the OP specifically, see it as a general observation. I started some counter argument and then it came to me that it’s no use to do that again and again.


    What is clear considering the long story of all those threads, is everybody finds a solution focusing on a micro area that never involves the big picture. And then pages after pages people get to cover practically all other connected stuff. In the end nothing comes out of it. It's like an "ourobouros".

    Check the forum if you don't believe it: "Gorge tunnel is OP", "This is OP; that is weak", "make this like that"; "balance ruined", "Build XXX killed it", "the game is dead" and so on.

    The thing people don't seem to understand is the game is tailored upon the following format / sequence : 6vs6 - Skulk, lerk, fade, onos. The behavior / result will be different depending on the context.
    Everybody talks about their personal experiences which is commonly happening on public servers (as non competitive). The comp' have their own set of modification. People usually forget to describe the specific context in which the example takes place. 6vs6? 20? High/low skill?

    It is common not to see a 6vs6 slot server but instead a 8v8 up to 20+vs20+ slot. In this case, it's obvious the game won't have the same behavior without modifications. Modifications that are implemented (or NOT) by server admins depending on each case/mood / config. There is no "standard modification".


    What i think is a mistake? It's the changes that are implemented but the changes that don't focus on the root cause. I'm sure we all have examples that are so obvious we don't even mention it. One of the main problem in NS1&2 is frustration about territory share in early game.
    The “come back” disease. Let's take a minute to describe another game in which it happened.
    Battle Of Middle Earth is a Warcraft like game. Only commanders. On some maps the AI was using swarms. Like a Zerg rush but on multiple targets all over the place. You had to fail first until you get some clue on where are the resource points. Then by capturing more and more resource at each new game (on the same map); you finally build a better and bigger army than what that was thrown at your face. It was literally a come back scenario.

    Many players were stuck on those kind of map. And frankly i found it to be most boring. 1 you know you will win as the NPC isn't really clever in the end. 2 you know you will win as the process can only surprise you one time. There was 3 or 4 of these maps. 3 you have to go through a process that is clearly not interesting once you know the trick. Find the stuff, make some stuff bigger than the enemy, punch the face.

    But for those who were not patient enough and suffer a set of bad lost games, they were leaving the game with a finger up and a bad evaluation on Stem. Else they did some forum threads doing exactly the same that we see over here.

    On one side this game lost the most impatient players. On the other side it bored to death the one who were patient enough to continue. Not really a win/win.


    NS2 needs solid grounds to allow the teams to build a real strategy.
    In order to build any strategy game involving or not first person shooting you have to provide a solid jump-start / environment.

    Adapted to NS2 is gives the following: Each team should be able to conquer an equal part of the map using the basic units with no upgrades (marine / Skulk) during the moment called "Early game". It's like sending lemmings (the game) over and over and they annihilate in the middle of the map like a particle vs anti-particle.

    In a test environment; if the players fight for 10 or more minutes and end up sharing 50% of the map; then it's a solid pillar on which you can build. The players can loose some territory temporarily but are assured to remove (or stop) the threat on the next engagement (lemmings) therefore stabilizing the front line. It should be the case for any start configuration (Starting TP). That's were the map has an influence and when you can detect issues.

    It can be 33%/33% and 33% left to conquer (StarCraft look and feel (only)). Not a problem; as long as one team doesn't look like and feel like the one who has to make a come back. It would be better than the so called "Come back from the beginning" that i see over and over. But the 33/33/33 is a little low. It should be like that later in the game. I'll explain why later.

    Let's call it the "1st pillar".

    This "1st pillar" can be obtained in NS2, we can put aside the map influence for the moment. One problem at a time. It has an impact of course. The point is there is enough official and custom map to be able to test the "jump-start sequence" in a rich environment. It would even allow to find out what's really wrong in some maps. Custom AND official...

    The saddest to me is seeing UWE not providing a significant thing that was forgotten. Scalable balance. The game should automatically balance depending on the number of players. The map won't grow and get more RTs and TPs if more players join. So the only lever left is damage/armor/speed/economy speed. We saw many changes since the birth of NS2 on those things. There is nothing that prevents to create a scalable balance.

    Basically it's implementing a factor which is based on the player numbers. It should have an influence on player damage, structure damage for example. You can go further when teams are uneven, etc... I mean the complexity of all the mechanics already implemented is by far higher than what's needed to adjust damage/armor/speed/economy speed based on the slot number.

    If you can make the jump-start sequence reach the 50/50 territory share with 6 up to 20 players per team with high, low and mixed skill (but even teams). You definitely have something good.

    I'm afraid the balance approach angle wasn't the same. Should it be ? It's safe to say that tailoring the game format to 6vs6 is at best "reductive" compared to how people play FPS (only) since BattleField if not before. Yes... Half life. People just can't change like that.


    Also testing with no auto-hotkey and such crap some people use. Nor specific mod or anything different than setting up the keyboard (like a rookie). Really. You'll get a clearer picture that way.
    We all know it's not an equal territory share (in early game) since a long time. Far from it. It's more or less frustrating depending on people but definitely not positive.


    The strategy layer has to offer choices. I'm afraid it's not the case any more.
    From 6vs6 to more players; it's difficult to keep the 2 naturals as alien. The more you add players, the more it's difficult. It's exponential if the marine are highly skilled. Up to a total mess with maximum number of players. As an example; 20 marines in a hive is just like a dead game. "Just rush it" they say, no skill involved... In low skill games the front line is more blury but it's still in marine favor. The ranged weapon in an environment that doesn't offer enough options (like vents, crates, nooks) has a clear influence.

    It's often the same scenario. The aliens have to make a come back. They're only saved by the fact PRES allow them to evolve and push back the opponent with stronger assets. This provides other constraints. They mustn't fail at each stage. If Lerks die too fast, when Fades are out, they will have more pressure on their shoulders and so on. Hence the Tunnel is often used as a last resort tactic (as opposed to build a strategy. The long term idea).

    This forces (and locks) the players to use the same tech tree over and over as a result. This is the second grievance. The strategy layer should include choices. It has decayed to a point that is not really enjoyable. Shift first is common if not the only. Crag is more used by high skilled player to be able to resist better, and Shade isn't just an option in the current state. You will only see it on a stacked game. We can say the stackers are picking on the rookies in this case.


    Allowing choices and make sure it's doable is the second step when balancing a game with strategy in it. Maybe robotic routines are suited for FPS only games but not for NS.
    The second grievance:
    The choices aren't available now. Shift has many interesting abilities (commander and players), crag is for brute force tactics or to to resist damage better, and shade isn't just possible if people aren't NS2 average/veteran. Let's just say that players playing on public server will see the same thing over and over. At least on rush hours.

    Many reasons are involved. The commander wants to Echo, the players want speed, the gorge may use adrenaline. Also the commander may be inclined to stay in the safe zone in order not to be ejected under a minute, etc.

    This leads to play the same thing over and over and also it's not allowing players to practice in other strategies. Exactly the one thing NS should have avoided at all costs. Strategy = options. No options or "routine" is like making NS look like any other FPS. It's quite wrong considering everything is available in NS.

    Before anyone get lost. Tactics are how to enter in this mansion and securing it safely. The strategy is answer the question : “should we take mansion A or mansion B?”

    The second test is to make sure the first chamber / upgrades (W1/A1 or shot etc..) is giving the same outcome on the same test. So we're still on a 50/50 share of the map but this time with a more blurry line. The upgrade should allow to push further, but not indefinitely.

    Ending up with a 30/30% territory for each team and 30% not exploitable as it is a war zone is OK. The best would be 40/40 & 20%

    You still need to exclude PG/Tunnel at the moment.

    The third test is to see how much the line changes depending on transport (PG/tunnel) presence. If the same amount of forces engage in a fight at the transport location, it should be resisting for at least two assaults. The third one should remove the threat.

    Yes it means in the NS2 case to modify the economy pace for alien. But isn’t it what happened a lot since the beginning? Hmm…



    What other asset could be used to balance things out?

    Base/Hive influence on the map.
    One part that is missing from NS1 is the weldable vents. Wait a second, I’m getting to it. I'm not in favor to implement this kind of thing like it was in NS1. In fact you can't really do that for NS2. But at least connecting TPs with exterior surrounding depending on who captured the TP is quite ok.
    Example. A marine base is built in TP, the vent connecting the TP close automatically (who said Veil/cargo). The base is destroyed and replaced by a hive, it should re-open the vents automatically. The vents in this case allow the alien team to be able to defend better the surrounding of a hive, therefore defend their natural RTs. Also the mappers will be able to design the maps easier. I mean any alien start would have vents to unlock egg lock, or protect the natural RT better. And it would ne somewhat easy as it's only adding vents and a door entity. Any decent mapper can do it with finger in the nose.

    I mean as an example, Biodome has only one configuration now (Alien North / Marine south). It's not a coincidence, is it? Make the captured TP close the vents automatically and the marines would be able to start in Hydro. Today it's a no go because of the vent directly connected.

    Yes it will render any base more difficult to infiltrate. But it’s gonna be better than the ridiculously insane egg lock or ninja Pg/Gorge. The team will need to organize, prepare and push in order to attack something. It’s teamwork, over single man army. Especially if the units are more specialized (fade interceptor etc.). Devs would be able to add more functions to lifeforms that fit the beast role (ex: Lerk gets a sense of smell naturally enhanced and can detect like aura. He would fight less and be more a recon / scout unit. Eyes on the map).
    It will alleviate the need to tweak lifeforms A then weapon B then back to square one with something else. I believe the SG spread in B310 has been modified as a consequence of hitbox, health modifications.

    About the paper lifeform. Yes it can be paper. But it should NOT be unforgiving. The word paper is of course exaggerated but it depict better the thing I want to explain.

    Unforgiving is what frustrate people the most. The vets know they win or loose depending on certain events. Like a dead set of fades. The players in public server move to the most efficient thing in any situation. So the Onos is a good bargain at the moment. It reassure people even though it shouldn’t. Big is supposed to be strong or the strongest.

    The class system is good for changing that. Re-spawning as the previous lost lifeorm is better for any player. Rookie or vets.

    It allows the rookies to practice more. It removes the frustration of failing at the unique chance you had to change things in the game. It replace it with "i could not xxxx" talking about the influence in the whole game. Quite better for them.
    It locks the vets in this role during the game. It's good to help balance the game (a fade will stay fade during the whole game), and good as choices can and should be made in critical situations (should i surrender the fade for a Onos, a Gorge? Should a Lerk go Fade loosing recon abilities for the team? etc.). Also you will be able to make them more specialized. Lerk = recon, Fade = interceptor, Onos = base destroyer etc...

    Make them have specialized abilities is quite good. Even a Vet as fade would have to choose carefully what to do and why. A paper fade is exactly what forces them to do so. I mean in 20+ server slot you can see a set of fades grinding RTs on a regular basis. Hmm… Sometimes I thing it should hurt them to do so.

    The balance fine tuning for "class locking" won't be on prices only but also on time before you re-spawn as the lifeform. So how much time the lifeform has an influence or not on the game is the way to do it. That is quite interesting in terms of strategy.


    Submitting a constant stream of tiny changes that reveal to be wrong in the end isn't a long term thing is it? NS2 will never get more players doing that. I suppose the SteamChart curve tends to say the same.

    Is it too late? I hope not. But I’m sure any new "micro-focused" change will just fail and as a consequence make this kind of thread (or drama) pop up again, and again, and again.

    Change the skulk, rookies post "skulk is unplayable!"
    Change the fade, vets go nuts like "Fading is over! the game is dead" etc...

    Please instead of throwing a wet firecracker (both people and devs) in there from time to time it would be more appreciated to think about the whole picture. I'm sure everybody can add and tell about his game experience in the matter/debate. And it'll be good. It's just that it should contribute to focus on the big picture first. I mean if the tiny changes could work it would be happening already, no?

    On a side note
    The end of the year is the sale time. I'm not sure NS2 will be saved with that. I'm not saying it's gonna dye either. The thing is, 2 rounds of Christmas sale just confirms the repetition in the SteamChart graph. Like it or not. It goes back to a flat line.

    Whatever we love the game and stick to it since a long time. Everybody can agree that there's something that just is not providing the felling it's gonna be long term fun. Especially as new people do not get contaminated for good. I can understand that and I'm humble about that. but in the end it means the game isn't fit for duty. Maybe it's time to think differently about it.
  • KeatsKeats United States Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Rusty wrote: »
    I always thought that "veterans" could have a special badge - such as "Trainer" - in which the devs could announce that anyone with the trainer badge is available on steam for one on one sessions. This could be a great opportunity to increase rookie longevity and maybe even help to turn them into decent players.
    I'm surprised @Nordic awesomed your post, I thought for sure he would tell you that rookies don't need coaching.

    Rusty wrote: »
    Please, Please, Please Stop pushing builds out on a Friday. Friday, Sat, Sunday are PEAK times! Pushing it out earlier in the week is better as if there's a problem - we don't want it interfering during peak times. Some of the other server ops cannot update as often as others, so having patches
    very yes
Sign In or Register to comment.